Worst Military mistake involving guns

[DontBurnMyFlag]

Ok, so we have talked about how the US military is constantly picking terrible guns and has in the passed. Im just interested about other militaries now. Include the US as well, just for kicks. But what has been the biggest mistake a military has made involving the distribution, manufacture or removal of a firearm.

I can think of a few.

1. Germany not creating enough STG44 (MP44) assault weapons

2. America, replacing the M14 with the M16A1

3. America replacing the Colt1911 with the M92 Beretta

4. England replacing the FN FAL and G3 with the L85/SA80

Those are just a few off the top of my head. Things to include would be causes of course, failed military victories due to the weapons and other such incidents. I just think it would make an interesting topic of conversation. Seeing is how the US Govt has been torn a new one time and time again because of the M16 etc.

 

[Seven High]

I believe that it would be the USA not taking the German STG44 and developing it for our troops use. They stuck with WW2 technology too long.

 

[dmftoy1]

The one that sticks in my head as being bigger than any of the one's you listed is not issuing Browning's BAR to our troops who went over to Europe during WWI and forcing them to use that POS french thing. (can't remember the name). From what I remember reading it was because they were afraid the germans would capture one and copy it.

The other one that's somewhat related to your list is when they decided to load the wrong powder in the ammo for the M16A1 and discard the originally spec'd chrome lined chamber. (some beancounter decision if I remember right)

Have a good one,
Dave

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I vote for the replacement of the .45 Colts with the 9mm Beretta (just like you mentioned above). I like berettas but the Colt was much sweeter.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Custer's 7th Cavalry exchanging their obsolete Civil War era Spencer metallic cartridge fed lever action rifle for the single shot Springfield rifle just a year before Little Big Horn. Hoka Hey!

 

[Deathrider1579]

The one that sticks in my head as being bigger than any of the one's you listed is not issuing Browning's BAR to our troops who went over to Europe during WWI and forcing them to use that POS french thing. (can't remember the name). From what I remember reading it was because they were afraid the germans would capture one and copy it.

The other one that's somewhat related to your list is when they decided to load the wrong powder in the ammo for the M16A1 and discard the originally spec'd chrome lined chamber. (some beancounter decision if I remember right)

Have a good one,
Dave

That would be the Chauchat MG that the frenchies foisted upon us.

 

[dmftoy1]

That's it!!

 

[kjeff50cal]

Yes, The American Expeditionary Force (WW1) choosing the French Chauchat (the original jam-o-matic & zero parts interchanged) as their squad level machine gun instead of the BAR.

U.S. Army switching from the .45 Army Colt revolver to the .38 Colt DA Army revolver (Spanish-American War). Moro warriors (high on narcotics and armored) took many .38 bullets to stop .


kjeff50cal

 

[chuckles]

Dmftoy1 wrote:

that POS french thing.

I think that was called a Chauchat or somthing to that effect. My spelling is obviously wrong. I agree that the US staying with WW11 technology too long was a mistake. I disagree that the 1911 for Beretta was a serious mistake. Edited to add: At least 3 posters beat me to it.

 

[migoi]

I would..

vote for whatever went on in Turrent 2 on USS Iowa on April 19, 1989 just prior to the explosion.

So much stuff seems to have happened on April 19... OK City, Waco, errant bomb in PR, USS Iowa....

migoi

 

[captain obvious]

Hmm, how about the Imperial Japanese High Command's general view that modern infantry small arms weren't all that important on the battlefield?


Or the US Army's flat refusal to use anything but single shot, black powder rifles, and then picking the Krag over the Mauser?

EDIT:


Also Custer leaving his gatlings behind was pretty noteworthy, too.

 

[cracked butt]

Weren't the Cuban commandos that fought in the Bay of Pigs debacle given M1 Garands but with all of their ammo being loaded on stripper clips because of some big administrative screwup?

 

[redranger1]

i dont think replacing the 1911 with the beretta was a bad choice except that the 9mm is to underpowered. they should upgrade it to a 96 imho.

 

[DirksterG30]

-The Germans sticking with bolt-action Kar-98's for so long
-US military switching from .45ACP to 9mm
-introducing M-16s to our troops in Vietnam without enough testing, changing the powder used in the ammo, etc. and not issuing cleaning kits (thanks a lot, Robert McNamara)

 

[mbs357]

4. England replacing the FN FAL and G3 with the L85/SA80

***???

That's like taking a butter knife over a Kabar.
If I'm not mistaken, the SA80 is a very crappy gun.

 

[Manedwolf]

i dont think replacing the 1911 with the beretta was a bad choice except that the 9mm is to underpowered. they should upgrade it to a 96 imho.

To me, it's not the issue that the 9mm is underpowered at all...ask cops who have taken down perps with +P or +P+ hollowpoints. It's that due to the Hague, etc, combat operations are (on paper) limited to the use of full metal jacket, and it's just too fast to do much damage like that.

9mm is versatile in that you can use hollowpoints for manstoppers and FMJ to shoot through things in a way the 45 can't, AND you can have a combat pistol with higher capacity than a 45...but combat soldiers can't use the hollowpoint option.

 

[Manedwolf]

***???

That's like taking a butter knife over a Kabar.
If I'm not mistaken, the SA80 is a very crappy gun.

That's what I've heard a lot of British military sorts saying, too. Reason why the FAL got a rep as the "right arm of the free world"...

 

[Jeff White]

Ok first off the BAR was not ready for issue before WWI ended. The big mistake was never adopting the Lewis Gun which was developed by a serving US Army officer and offered to the Army for free. Of course our allies used the Lewis gun to good effect. But our troops were stuck with the Chauchat and other inferior machine guns.

By the time the STG-44 (MP43/44) was ready for production the war had gone badly enough for the Germans that it would have taken a lot more then a new rifle to win.

I would have to say that one of the biggest mistakes the US military ever made with small arms was rejecting British intermediate cartridge (.280) as the NATO standard and insisting on a so called full power cartridge for rifles. Then we spent millions on the ill fated M14 which was so plagued with production difficulites that we never did produce enough of them to equip the entire military establishment.

Combat experience in WWI identified the need for a light, compact Infantry weapon capable of a high rate of fire. The Germans developed submachine guns, the Americans developed (but never fielded) the Pederson Device for the 1903 Springfield rifle. Between the wars the M1 Garand was developed in an intermediate caliber (.276) but economics wedded us to M2 .30 until well into the 1960s.

Now we've come almost full circle with development of the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel almost back to where we were in the 1930s and the Brits were in the 1940s.....Think of where we might be if we had adopted an intermediate cartridge in the 30s or right after WWII? (I understand why MacArthur didn't want a new cartridge in the 1930s, the Army simply could not afford it)

Jeff

 

[gripper]

Here's an earlier example, by an enemey of ours(at the time):The Brits not producing the Fergus(spelling uncertain) breechloading rifle in greater numbers and/or training more riflemen(Greencoats)...if I recall correctly,it was felt that skilled individuals were "assasins in th eranks" due to their job of whacking the NCOs and officers in the ir enemy's ranks.
Or for that matter pinning the trigger assemblies from the Lee Enfield no.4 MK1's to the stocks instead of the receiver.Very bad when the trench conditions warped the stocks.Or the Brits adopting the .38 S7W (.380,.380/200) top breaks in place of the .455's and the available automatics(.30 Mauser, 9mm, .45).

 

[engineer151515]

My offering - worst military mistake involving guns: I submit this error of tactics.


July 1, 1916: Battle of the Somme

In broad daylight, after days of artillery bombardment, the British marched in parade fashion toward the German lines.

Despite the heavy bombardment, many of the German defenders had survived. The advance artillery bombardment failed to destroy either the German front line barbed wire or the heavily-built concrete bunkers.

The British were cut down like autumn wheat in the face of German machine guns.

The casualties sustained by the British army in the opening day of the Battle of Somme totalled 57,470, of which 19,240 were fatal - the bloodiest day in the history of the British Army.

Of course, the General in charge (Sir Douglas Haig ) later was promoted.

 

[taliv]

i'd say the winner hands-down would be the Palestinian Authority issuing rocks.

 

[AFhack]

i'd say the winner hands-down would be the Palestinian Authority issuing rocks.

Well, at least they had enough rocks to get a country


My vote for worst decision would have to be taking the internal guns out of the original F-4 design.

 

[Number 6]

That's like taking a butter knife over a Kabar.
If I'm not mistaken, the SA80 is a very crappy gun.

The current version of the SA80 is supposed to be much more reliable than it's previous iteration. Here is some more information.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/SA80.htm

 

[grimjaw]

3. America replacing the Colt1911 with the M92 Beretta

Can someone point me to the research that shows definitively that switching to this sidearm/round has increased the casualties suffered by US Forces?

jmm

 

[jungle]

The biggest mistake by the US military was an Ordnance system mired in tradition and slow to exploit advances in small arms.
The M16 was called a mistake by some posters, but the M14 was the mistake that fortunately only lasted 7 years. The M16 has served over forty years.
There are many examples of failure to adopt new technology by armies and it always results in great loss. Cavalry charges into Maxims, Bolt guns against autos, flat shooting rifles against single shot black powder, and tactics unsuited to weapons.
Tradition can be a wonderful thing in societies, but failure to adapt will get you killed.