would anyone here purchase $400 iron sights for a hd shotgun?

[Bix]

"Unless, of course, you're using you shotgun like a rifle"

If you're not shooting shot then it's not really a shotgun, is it?

I think that in some cases, you can be shooting shot and still using your shotgun like a rifle.

At extremely short ranges - like indoors, for example - buckshot patterns can be very tight. This is expecially true of the low recoil buckshot loads that have become popular for defensive purposes. Across the room, my gun with my load will print one-hole, wad-sized patterns. If I want to place those with any degree of precision (and I do ), I need to shoot my shotgun like a rifle.

 

[SFB]

Unless, of course, you're using you shotgun like a rifle - as some of us do.

My responses were strictly dealing with HD use of a shotgun as per the OP's question. I believe Larry's response was also geared towards HD use. Obviously if you are shooting slug or shooting competition you are going to be much more precise in your aiming. Not that you don't need to aim in a HD situation, but if a BG is coming through my front door and I'm 10 yards away with an 18" barrel and 00 buck I'm going to "point" and fire rather than line up the bead sight and then fire.

In my experience, this becomes even more of a problem when you log lots of practice time on birdshot and switch over to buck for a match, class, or 'serious purposes'. The two tend to pattern differently.

That's the reason I always practice with the same ammo I keep in the gun. Might be more expensive but how much is your life worth? I of course shoot cheaper ammo to practice as well, but you need to shoot what you are carrying and make sure you are proficient with that ammo.

 

[Bix]

My responses were strictly dealing with HD use of a shotgun as per the OP's question. I believe Larry's response was also geared towards HD use. Obviously if you are shooting slug or shooting competition you are going to be much more precise in your aiming. Not that you don't need to aim in a HD situation, but if a BG is coming through my front door and I'm 10 yards away with an 18" barrel and 00 buck I'm going to "point" and fire rather than line up the bead sight and then fire.

I'm talking about using buckshot in a defensive situation, as well (as I mentioned above). My buckshot patterns at HD ranges are essentially a single projectile - if I want to place them with precision I need to use sights.

I'm 10 yards away with an 18" barrel and 00 buck I'm going to "point" and fire rather than line up the bead sight and then fire.

I'm just saying that some folks will miss if they try this. As I described in my first post, I happen to be one of them . This is probably influenced by a lot of factors - current skill level, practice, load selection / pattern size, target size, etc.

If a shooter gets out and pressure tests it and find that he can't reliably and consistently get solid hits by pointing, he may benefit from some sort of sighting system on the gun (including an optic).

That's the reason I always practice with the same ammo I keep in the gun. Might be more expensive but how much is your life worth?

Good advice.

 

[Bill B.]

would anyone here purchase $400 iron sights for a hd shotgun?

Most of us with the cost of a Remington 870 aren't even spending $400.00 on the whole shotgun! Guess we are cheep!

 

[Mossberg535]

last time i checked u dont need pointless crap like this on any shotgun save scopes for rifles.

My mossy Turkey 535 came with one of those fancy battery powered red dot sights/scopes/gizmos. I took it off and slapped a Hiviz Magnetic Shotgun Sight on it and love it. I never did like the old brass bead, but these work great for ~$10.

Front and rear sights for about $20 total.



.

 

[Hawk]

I don't have a shotgun that would benefit from an EO Tech.

That said, if you paid 400.00 for one, you did OK.

I'd quit worrying about it and wait for an M4-alike or 556 to materialize under the tree in a couple months. Then you can mosey on off to the rifle forum with no worries about the holo sight.

 

[MCgunner]

I'm a rib and bead point shooter, myself. Just got home from doing that all weekend on little birds. I don't like electronics on my weapons (except maybe a laser) at any rate, not that I must rely on. I have EFI in my car and wish I could replace it with a carburetor. LOL I hate electonics when they're not necessary and especially when you must rely on them.

Reminds me of an EMP discussion my buddy and I were having today. My son-in-law, the Ford mechanic, had never heard of breaker point ignition. LOL He's hell with an engine analyzer computer, though.

Anyway, point is, why complicate things if simple works? And, simple has its advantages.

 

[MCgunner]

BTW, there seems to be confusion in what is "point shooting" with a shotgun. I think of it as looking down the gun (proper fitting gun is a must) down the rib at the bead.and placing the bead where the shot needs to go. No sight alignment, thus, you can't call it aiming, though in a way, you're aiming with the bead, just that the bead is your "sight" and I really think of it as "pointing" the gun as you would point your finger. I shoot slugs this way and can put 'em into 2" at 50 yards. It's plenty accurate and a lot faster, especially in low light, than aligning rifle sights. This is why bird guns and skeet and trap guns have ribs and beads. And, I simply don't think you can improve on it with anything meant for a rifle especially if it takes batteries.

Pointing, IMHO at least, does NOT mean shooting from the hip!!!! Pointing means pointing the gun down the rib or barrel of the gun. Actually, you don't even need a bead to do it. As a kid, the bead fell off my Iver Johnson 16 gauge single shot and I still kept killing geese with it. I never replaced the bead, still have the gun, though I haven't shot it in 25 years and haven't hunted with it in nearly 40 years.

If you can't shoot by "pointing", you need to learn. Take up trap or sporting clays or something and get some practice. You'll learn to swing smooth, you'll learn lead, it's a very fun way to learn shotgun marksmanship.

 

[RobMoore]

Last time I checked, my shotgun didn't pattern buckshot wide enough that I didn't need to aim. I don't know who you people are that think you can just blindly point the shotgun in the general vicinity of a bad guy and take out him and anyone standing next to him.

If you want to hit him center of mass, you've got to aim it. The quicker you can be accurate, the better. So no, the aimpoints/EOtechs on HD shotguns are not a waste of money.

I prefer tritium iron sights myself. That is my personal preference, but sights on a shotgun DO serve a purpose.

 

[Pony Express]

my shotgun wears rifle sights...$400 would be spent on ammo in my hands

 

[MCgunner]

RobMoore, read my post. I'm not closing my eyes or pointing from the hip, but I'm faster with the bead and just as accurate as you using a 16x rifle scope, well, at house defense ranges, anyway. I don't wing shoot or shoot clays with electronic gizmos, don't need 'em. Same for rifle sights. I shoot shotguns as they were intended to be shot and, surprise, I find that's just hard to improve upon.

 

[MCgunner]

http://www.shootwhereyoulook.com/

For those that need help shooting shotguns properly.

 

[oneounceload]

IMO, at your typical HD distances, fancy sights, especially those that can easily fail, snag, or cause issues, are not needed. I am NOT talking about long range deer hunting or similar - strictly indoors shoot the bg stuff......Of course, there a LOT of things not needed on HD guns that folks like to use to either make it look "cool", or that they THINK will help. Most products, again - IMO, aren't a help but a hindrance....

YMMV

 

[RobMoore]

McGunner, I kindly ask you to read my post as well. Nowhere did I mention shooting from the hip, closing of eyes, or 16x scopes...or reference anything you said previously. The fact that my post came immediately after yours is mere chance.

 

[geologist]

For HD I prefer Wilson ghost rings with a triium front post, fast, instinctive and no batteries.

 

[RobMoore]

The "no batteries" thing gets me sometimes. Do you carry road flares in lieu of a flashlight because you think your flashlight batteries will fail you?

Unless you've used up the batteries lifespan, your weapon is more likely to fail than your batteries.

 

[JohnBT]

"I don't know who you people are that think you can just blindly point the shotgun in the general vicinity of a bad guy and take out him and anyone standing next to him."

Quick, without bothering to sight down your finger, point at the light switch on the wall. Try it from about shoulder height with your hand about 18" or so from your shoulder. Quick, point at the wall outlet on the other side of the room. Now lower your head and sight down your finger. Right on the money if you're like most people.

And there's no bead and no rib on an index finger. It's all a matter of practice and confidence. You just do it and don't think about it.

John

edited: outlet for oulet

 

[natman]

If you're having to aim your shotgun, you're doing something wrong.

+1
specially in a home defense situation. you should practice enough to feel comfortable pointing and clicking. unless you are using slugs, you'd have to be one horrible shot to COMPLETELY miss your target at those ranges.

Shooting a shotgun in a HD situation is completely different from wingshooting.

At HD ranges a shotgun pattern is only a few inches across.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot42.htm

It's EASY to miss. And you don't have to completely miss to have pellets whizzing through the drywall with potentially disastrous consequences.

It's easy to sit on a chair in front of your computer and talk about how well trained you are so you'd never miss, but HD situations are by definition extremely stressful, take place in cramped quarters and you may not be able to get a perfect shooting position. Neither sights nor training are replacements for the other. Rather they compliment each other nicely.

So, yes, sights on a HD shotgun are a good idea, both to serve as a reminder to keep your head down and to allow you to zero in the pattern.

In a HD situation you may be shooting a shotgun, but you shoot it as if it were a rifle. So if you aim your shotgun you are doing something right. And a set of simple iron sights will help.

I'm not at all sure that $400 holographic sights are strictly necessary though.

 

[MCgunner]

Shooting a shotgun in a HD situation is completely different from wingshooting.

The only difference I can see is the target is HUGE, is not moving 40 mph and juking and darting, and is 10 feet instead of 40 yards. Much easier target. If you can't hit a man at 10 feet with a shotgun using slugs without electronics or rifle sights, get some pepper spray. JohnBT explains it well.

 

[Bix]

the target is HUGE

That could be part of the disconnect here. The target I've been taught to shoot for in a defensive situation is farily small. Moreover, in training for defensive shooting, I've been taught to strive for a high degree of accuracy. So, for me, it's tiny patterns and tiny targets. I suppose this leads into a discussion of wound ballistics, which is way outside the scope of this thread.

In any event, for me, placing a wad-sized payload of buckshot into a small target at across-the-room or down-the-hall distances reliably and repeatably requires sights.

I can do it sometimes by pointing. I shoot trap, skeet, 5-stand and sporting clays with my 870 and have a decently-groove mount. But I can't do it every time, cold, and on demand by pointing. If anything about my mount is off, I'll throw the shot if I'm trying to 'shoot where I look'. For me, getting hits by pointing requires a very solid interface between me and a well-fitting gun. If anything about that interface breaks down (because I'm moving, under stress, etc.) I won't hit reliably. When I miss a bird on the sporting clays field, I can often attribute it to a sloppy mount.

Using sights eliminates the need for a perfect (or near perfect) mount. If I do my part, I can get accurate hits on the move, on my back, from the weakside shoulder, etc. using sights. That's simply not possible for me by pointing.

 

[natman]

The only difference I can see is the target is HUGE, is not moving 40 mph and juking and darting, and is 10 feet instead of 40 yards. Much easier target. If you can't hit a man at 10 feet with a shotgun using slugs without electronics or rifle sights, get some pepper spray. JohnBT explains it well.

Well there's the difference that your pattern is only about 6" across rather than 40+".

And the difference that if you have any business firing at all, it's because you need to make a stop RIGHT NOW, which requires some shot placement. And that you want every pellet to hit so it doesn't go somewhere it shouldn't.

If point shooting works for you, then more power to you. But to suggest that it's so easy and natural that someone you don't know should rely on it is a stretch. Besides, the two do not have to be exclusive. I'd be happy to point shoot my shotgun and have the sights line up perfectly. Best of both worlds.

 

[MCgunner]

At ten feet, I don't care if I have a slug, I will still hit better, faster by point shooting. A human chest is a bit bigger than a dove. Even a human head or a human heart is huge compared to a dove. If you're shooting at eyeballs, I see your point. Trust me, though, I don't need no stinkin' sights on a shotgun. Really don't need 'em on a rifle at 10 feet. The whole idea of some pocket pistols not having sights is the short range at which they will be deployed.

I remember one teal that came in, saw him coming, swung on him about about 15 feet as he flaired and fired and he folded. Hmm, that was cool, so I walked over, the shot column had taken his head off. Good thing I didn't hit him amidships. Shot a dove at about 15 yards this weekend, only had to lead about 6" in front of his beak. He had a LOT of holes in him from the I/C choked tube.

Believe me, I know shotguns and how to use 'em. Practice makes the software better, if not perfect. Shooting is the way to improve your hit probability, not so much add on hardware. Tom Knap don't need no stinkin' electronic sight. If I deer hunted with a rifled slug gun, I'd have rifle sights on it, maybe a scope, but rifle sights would do. Other than that application, give me a rib and bead or just a slick topped barrel. The rib and bead helps the eye coordinate, though.

 

[RobMoore]

The best of both worlds is being able to point shoot, but having sights to KNOW where you are hitting.

...and like has been said above, I don't consider the target to be huge. I want to aim for as small an area that I can hit quickly. The more precise I can be at speed the better.

The only reason I don't have an optic on my shotgun is because my primary HD is a night sighted 1911, and there have always been things I'd rather spend money on than a shotgun optic. That doesn't discount it as a valueable device. It only places it lower on my personal scale.

I think I'm debating mainly against the idea that because it may not be "the bee's knees" to some people, that everyone who has one is an illeducated mall ninja.

 

[MCgunner]

I just think that if you need an electronic crutch, you haven't practiced enough. Where that bead goes, so goes the shot column. And, a gun that points natural, fits well, the bead is good daylight or dark, no sight alignment to worry about, just a bead and rib. If it's really dark, though, might want a flashlight mount or laser. I can see that. Lasers are great in the dark and have an intimidation factor if the BG can't see that shotgun's bore. My home is next door to a car wash, though, and lots of ambient light shines through the windows at night in the living room. Yeah, I have a few handguns I'd rather use than my shotgun, though, if I HAVE to leave the safe room. My shotgun is mainly for safe room security and, because, well, might as well have it loaded there. It's my hunting gun, not a specialized assault weapon.

Better to spend that 400 bucks on Winchester AA and hit the skeet range and learn your shotgun and shotgun marksmanship. That's pretty much my point. Not tossing around mall ninja insults.

 

[ShowMe2]

Reality Check

Guys,

Here's what happens in the real world when the target shoots back at normal HD ranges...

Trust me on this, you will not use the sights or aim the firearm; you will concentrate on the target, point your weapon in the general direction of the bad guy, shoot, and unless you're the Terminator, be scared !@#$less, and shaking like a leaf.

So if you want to knock down plates, win a match, or shoot a tiny group use the sights, but all that so-called training you received about sight alignment and trigger control goes right out the window the moment you realize "this guy's trying to kill me!"

Getting back to the OP's question...no, they're a waste of money. A five dollar bead works just as well.