Would-Be Armed Robber Ends Up With A Loaded Gun In His Face

[Outlaw Man]

For the record, there are security cameras that pan, tilt, and zoom to "follow" humans or vehicles, though none of them jiggle like their handheld unless they're set up wrong, and they're generally not installed behind a cashier/clerk.

Probably not the best decision on the clerk's part, but he lived, he didn't have to kill anyone, and the robber probably won't be trying that again (hopefully).

 

[Trunk Monkey]

The clerk walked away. Which makes it a win. Period.

It's a win because the robber did everything wrong not because the clerk did anything right.

 

[allaroundhunter]

It's a win because the robber did everything wrong not because the clerk did anything right.

Go find me a defensive shooting in which the good guy did everything right.

The statement that you quoted didn't even say that the clerk did a single thing right. He just said that the good guy walked away. Regardless of mistakes made or things done right, if the good guy(s) walk away, it is a win.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

When the clerk pushed the robber’s hand away he was not in control of the robber’s gun. All the robber had to do was tilt his hand and fire. Similarly, when the clerk put this pistol right in the robbers face (AKA well within his grasp) the robber had both hands free and was armed he could have very easily gained control of the clerk’s hand and firearm while shooting. This was not a demonstration of judgment or experience it was blind luck.

 

[X-Rap]

I would not wish to bet my life on my ability to push away a gun from across a counter and then have a still armed robber stand and let me massage his dental work with my muzzle while I uttered a few lines fit for the cinema before he walked out with any shots fired.
It was a good day for them both and given other stories I've heard and read people have been shot and killed for much less.

 

[Al Thompson]

raised his left arm to his chest (as per the 4 count draw video), the robber would have immediately been free to point and shoot.

You can run the 4 count draw and use your other hand to open a door, hold a flashlight or try and control the bad guys gun.

The clerk walked away. Which makes it a win. Period.

No disagreement there, but with the aside of fouling up the bad guy's gunhand, nothing much to emulate either.

Which is why I moved it here as opposed to General. IMHO, there are teachable points to consider here.

 

[Officers'Wife]

I would not wish to bet my life on my ability to push away a gun from across a counter and then have a still armed robber stand and let me massage his dental work with my muzzle while I uttered a few lines fit for the cinema before he walked out with any shots fired.
It was a good day for them both and given other stories I've heard and read people have been shot and killed for much less.

I wouldn't either, but then I don't have 30 years in the military, prison guard, etc. I have to believe that he reacted from an understanding of human nature gained by that unique set of experiences that we are not qualified to see. It's not for me to judge the tactics of a profession. I know from experience in other professions that they see challenges with a far greater skill set. The more experience, the greater the skill set. Did he do everything wrong? It would appear popular knowledge would say so. But I seem to recall an ancient President saying it's not what people don't know that is harmful, it's what they do know that isn't true.

(Rant over proceed with flames.)

 

[Blackstone]

The point of this topic isn't to go around in a circle saying "good guy won, bad guy lost, jolly good show", but to analyse what happened and extract some take home points. I guess that means straying into the area of armchair quarterbacking.

 

[Officers'Wife]

The point of this topic isn't to go around in a circle saying "good guy won, bad guy lost, jolly good show", but to analyse what happened and extract some take home points. I guess that means straying into the area of armchair quarterbacking.

And I'm saying this incident involves judgments and tactics far out of reach of the average person. Armoredman with his long and honorable experience as a prison guard is the only one I know of here that could come close to an accurate analysis. I would love to have a ftf talk with Alexander on this topic, but my experience with combat veterans tells me at most he would say the robber's heart wasn't in it.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Blackstone: The point of this topic isn't to go around in a circle saying "good guy won, bad guy lost, jolly good show", but to analyse what happened and extract some take home points. I guess that means straying into the area of armchair quarterbacking.

Yes indeed.

Should the clerk conclude that his actions were the correct ones and rely upon the same approach in another encounter, we might well not be saying "good guy won."

Posted by Officers'Wife: I have to believe that he reacted from an understanding of human nature gained by that unique set of experiences that we are not qualified to see.

That may be what happened--or not.

There are two facets of the issue. The first is what to do if a man points a gun at someone and demands money. We discuss that all the time.

One course of action is to hand over the money, and hope that the robber chooses to not shoot. That often works out. Sometimes it does not.

Another is to assume that the robber will shoot anyway, and to try to use deadly force. The problem is that that strategy may precipitate the robber's use of deadly force, which might not have occurred had the victim not tried to resist. And it may or may not prevent the victim from being harmed.

A variation on the latter is to hand over the money and prepare to shoot while the robber is preoccupied.

In this case, the victim tried none of the above. He reached out at the robber's gun and drew his own, but he did not shoot. He got away with it--this time.

His reasoning was that he did not see the bore of the robber's gun. That is not at all the mark of experience or sound judgment.

That takes to the second facet--that of how to use the weapon should it become necessary. Drawing on a man with gun in hand is a high risk gamble; it should be done only when it is absolutely necessary, probably in concert with doing something else to distract him; the victim should probably move off line, behind something if possible. And if he has already made the move to escalate the situation by drawing his gun, the victim should open fire immediately.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I wouldn't either, but then I don't have 30 years in the military, prison guard, etc. I have to believe that he reacted from an understanding of human nature gained by that unique set of experiences that we are not qualified to see.

I do have military experience (if not 30 years worth) and the most highroad thing I can say is I disagree vehemently.

My military training taught me that you fire as soon as your sights are on the target.

Again, so far as we know the clerk doesn’t know the robber and doesn’t know anything about how he will react he pushes the robbers hand away but does not control it (IOW the robber’s gun hand is free and there’s nothing to stop him from firing) the he all but hands the crook his gun. My martial arts training tells me that if you stick a gun in my face and don’t fire I can knock it off target before you can pull the trigger.

In the Shootist John Wayne says “You have to be willing, most men aren’t. They’ll take a breath or blink their eyes, I won’t” the clerk demonstrably wasn’t willing.

He got lucky, this time

 

[Officers'Wife]

His reasoning was that he did not see the bore of the robber's gun. That is not at all the mark of experience or sound judgment.

Again, I have to agree. But I have to wonder if he was being edited for a good sound bite. I'm going by old cattlemen that can tell whether a bull is grandstanding or actually ready to charge just by the animal's posture. Ask them how they knew and you are very unlikely to get a definitive answer because it's more a matter of "instinct" than "a" equaled "b" therefore "c." The only way I could make a judgment would be to have the ftf and since that is unlikely I tend to believe it was a bit more than blind luck.

 

[Al Thompson]

my experience with combat veterans

We have several around, members and staff both.

There are some questions about this guys "multiple tours" claim being looked into elsewhere.

Blackstone, exactly.

“Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others.”
― Otto von Bismarck

 

[X-Rap]

Times are tough but one has to wonder why one with a resume like his is working the counter at a mini mart?

 

[Officers'Wife]

I've seen guys at Indiana Veterans Home with nothing more than VA and SSI. They are IVH simply because it's the only housing they can afford. I suspect because of his age it was the best he could get.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Señor clerk is very lucky. I don't think he should have done what he did. Don't draw, or shoot; one or the other.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

There are some questions about this guys "multiple tours" claim being looked into elsewhere

He could have multiple tours but not be in a combat arms MOS

Times are tough but one has to wonder why one with a resume like his is working the counter at a mini mart?

I work with a bunch of retirees who are quite content with a low paying security job that merely suplements their retirement pay

 

[Officers'Wife]

We have several around, members and staff both.

There are some questions about this guys "multiple tours" claim being looked into elsewhere.

Blackstone, exactly.

“Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others.”
― Otto von Bismarck

Thank you. If you would please, let me know the results. ATM though I'm going by the information available.

 

[tepin]

Hard to imagine being in that situation and not pulling the trigger... unless it was staged.

 

[Averageman]

As soon as my left hand contacted his right I would have shot that guy right out of his shoes.

 

[another pake]

Hard to imagine being in that situation and not pulling the trigger... unless it was staged.

I too thought about this but I'm more inclined to think that the clerk knows or at least recognizes the BG. As I view this over and over, the more that it looks to me that the BG is a little tipsy, slow to produce his own weapon, surprised by the response of the clerk, and then quickly comes to his senses and leaves.

All conjecture on my part though. It's almost as if the clerk is saying,

"Listen Ralphie, If you ever come in here and pull that thing on me again I'll tell your wife and she'll beat the hell out of you!"

Might be his younger brother for all we know.

Either way, it's value is in how not to respond.....

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Trunk Monkey:When the clerk pushed the robber’s hand away he was not in control of the robber’s gun. All the robber had to do was tilt his hand and fire. Similarly, when the clerk put this pistol right in the robbers face (AKA well within his grasp) the robber had both hands free and was armed he could have very easily gained control of the clerk’s hand and firearm while shooting. This was not a demonstration of judgment or experience it was blind luck.

Again, so far as we know the clerk doesn’t know the robber and doesn’t know anything about how he will react he pushes the robbers hand away but does not control it (IOW the robber’s gun hand is free and there’s nothing to stop him from firing) the he all but hands the crook his gun.

I think that sums it up pretty well.

Had there been no counter in the way, reaching out to control the robber's gun might have been viable; it might have been the best way to get off the first shot(s). The problem is, the clerk never gained control of the robber's gun, and the perp could very easily have fired while holding his gun next to his body.

And sticking the gun out where it could be grabbed would have been unwise even if there had been no counter in the way. There is plenty of training on the subject of close quarter defensive shooting.

Frankly, I doubt that we will ever learn any more about what actually happened and why, but we can learn from the video, if only in terms of what not to do.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I've heard speculation on other forums that the robber was known to the clerk and the clerk stuck his gun in the robber's face and said (in essence) "Bubba you need to go the Hell home and sober up or next time I'm really gonna kick your ass" and that may be why shots weren't fired

 

[grter]

I think the clerk handled the situation very well. If things go wrong it's going to be a shootout whether or not he did this or that or this.

He kept his cool and totally controlled the situation the best it could.

Everybody wants to give the professonal advice on how to do their work. This type of stuff is what he does, it's his living, how he puts bread on his table.

That guy walked into the wrong store and I sincerely belive he is really really lucky to leave that store without his head ventilated.

As for being able to push a gun away from your face as taught in martial arts, I would strongly advise that you better know if that firearm is in single action mode or double.

I know this from experience practicing with an unloaded bb gun and someone skilled in fighting that if you knock that gun you might be your own executioner by jarring that trigger up against his finger and I guarantee you that hammer will fall and a round will be fired into you before that muzzle is deflected away from you.

Thats what happened during practice yes the fighter reacted to my drawing while thumbing back a single action before I knew what had happened that empty bb gun went pop right into his stomach. My finger was up against the trigger I had no intention of firing it that moment but he caused it to fire by his attempt to deflect it.

He was a stunned as I was. So no deflecting a hair trigger single action pressed in your mouth is probably a bad idea.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

totally controlled the situation

That's kind of the point he didn't control the situation on any level.