Would Copper Shot make a better HD load?

[MikePGS]

Sorry probably a dumb question. Since Copper isn't as dense as lead, would you be able to cram more pellets into a shell if you were to use copper instead? Also would it penetrate better, as it does with normal bullets (corbon DPX for example) or is that mostly based on the bullet design, which would be negated by being a round ball?

 

[oneounceload]

It would not penetrate better because it is less dense; volume/capacity is not based on weight as it is on size....
for a shotgun, traditionalists will cite you the standard as 00buckshot - simply, it works

 

[Fred Fuller]

It would be better to go the other way IMHO- more density, not less. I've always wished the folks at HeviShot would make #1 buck size HeviShot pellets- they should weigh about as much each as a 00 lead pellet.

So far, no joy...

lpl

 

[sm]

Bismuth is very near to lead...I wish I had the time and money to mess with Bismuth, again.

Copper and nickle plated hard lead pellets are very hard to beat, . The hard shot resists deformation, and the plating adds more resistance to deformity.

Less is more, if you will. Hence the reason the 2 3/4" shell and not going overboard with pellet count, feet per second and the like.

A shotgun is akin to a grenade going off. Pellet slam into the forcing cone, then travel the bore, then exit a constriction (muzzle/fixed or screw in choke).
I want some constrictions, even on a "cyl bore" I want at least a point or two.

Warning: THR is not responsible for the following information:

Actually...many shotguns will pattern a standard Nine pellet , 00 buck shot load from a 5 pack better - if- that shell is uncrimped, and one pellet removed, leaving 8.
Some other things I will not share, based on actual testing, evaluation, investigation and verification.
You HAVE to know reloading , recipes, and have the proper equipment, and experience.

Still, I have gone from all nine pellets in a 9 inch paper plate, to all 8 pellets into 5 inch paper dessert plate.
Everything exactly the same, gun, lot of factory shells,... except 8 pellets.

Less is more...

 

[wnycollector]

+1 on the #1 buck hevishot loads. I have been tempted at picking up some of their T sized loads to play with but at $2.25/ round...

 

[Dave McCracken]

Hevi 1 buck sounds good. They did make 00 for a while. BP may still have some for sale. Pricey, but this is not stuff you shoot up just because you have it.

 

[ShowMe2]

Keep it Simple

Our PD has test fired hundreds of rounds of buckshot loads from the Big 3 manufacures (Remington, Federal, Winchester). At typical HD ranges, ALL of them perform well. In my opinion, the added cost of copper or Hevishot is just not justified, unless shots longer than 25 yards are contemplated.

My personal favorite is the 2 3/4" OO Buck Magnum load. A 33% increase in pellet count with a small increase in recoil. Trust me on this, if you ever have to utilize a shotgun in a deadly force situation, recoil is the last thing you will notice.

We use Winchester ammo because the crimps seem to stay tighter longer in extended magazines than either Remington or Federal.

 

[monkyboy1975]

Anybody try the Fiocchi nickel plated buck? 7 bucks for ten rounds seems like a pretty good deal.

 

[RyanM]

Sorry probably a dumb question. Since Copper isn't as dense as lead, would you be able to cram more pellets into a shell if you were to use copper instead?

You're limited by space much more than weight. Though solid copper shot, being harder, could probably get away with less padding underneath the shot. Probably wouldn't be able to fit more than 1 extra layer, though.

 

[ChemicalArts]

It would be better to go the other way IMHO- more density, not less. I've always wished the folks at HeviShot would make #1 buck size HeviShot pellets- they should weigh about as much each as a 00 lead pellet.

So far, no joy...

lpl

I would avoid more density and stick with lead. If you go with some higher density heavy metal, I think a district attorney and/or jury might look less favorably on a claim of self defense.

Bismuth is very near to lead...I wish I had the time and money to mess with Bismuth, again.

Again, I would say stick with lead. Lead is cheap and not exotic. It's standard ammo and is extremely effective.

An interesting note on another metal--Tungsten: In an effort to create a "less toxic alternative to lead", the army employed the use of tungsten bullets. Unfortunately, tungsten embedded under the skin (shrapnel, ricochet, friendly fire) is actually linked to aggressive forms of cancer:

http://www.ehponline.org/press/011505.html

A quote from this abstract:

"In findings that surprised the researchers, 100% of the rats implanted with tungsten-alloy pellets developed extremely aggressive tumors surrounding the pellets..."

I think this falls under the Law of Unintended Consequences.

 

[sm]

I agree, stick with lead.



Re: Bismuth.

Allow me to clarify.

The reason we were messing with bismuth, and other alternatives going was Gun Control.

I was born in the mid 50s, and Mentors & Elders, were concerned about gun control,
Some of my Mentors spent time with duties in regard to Cold War. Others were not from the USA and had been in conflicts in their homeland.
More reasons, and these folks were real deal folks had btdt, or still were.

Peoples already were not allowed to have guns like "Police" or "Military, for instance in some countries. What if that happened here in the US?
So we put back 20ga, 28ga and .410 single shot shotguns,
Police and Military use "repeating" , 12 ga shotguns

This was before JFK was shot in Dallas,in '63, I was in the 3rd grade when that happened.
GCA '68 was yet to happen.

Folks ordered guns and had them delivered at home COD. They used to, Gov't stopped that...

Still Mentor were thinking out of the box, what Tyranny might do and one something was restricting lead.

We already had a buckshot and slug load for 28 ga. Veterans from previous wars, and Polio victims could tote these guns, and shoot them.
Some of those Vets were amputees, and had all sorts of injuries which limited them.

We used 28 ga a lot for bird hunting, skeet of course, and felled slews of Ducks, with lead pellets.

So when Non-Tox was being jacked and jawed around, some ideas were already figured out, or pretty much anyway.

Some Mentors were making bismuth pellets and some were in buckshot sizes.
We wanted a load in case the government restricted lead, along with whatever else they did.

Deer fell to the lead 28 ga slug. Deer had been and why not? 28 ga is .550, and that is not far off the mark from .54 caliber which has a history felling two legged and 4 legged creatures.

NILO trials.
NILO, is OLIN as is Winchester reversed.
If you have not read this, look it up, very educational.

Our viewpoint was from gun control, and goes way way back.

Take barrel length. WE knew about guns, loads, pattering, choke, and we wanted choke.
We did not cut barrels down. Not often anyway, some of our testing required us to do so...

So what if gun control says only Police and Military can have short barrels?

I forget what year, still Ireland imposed a 24" min barrel length.

That negates 18.5 "riot" and 20" "police" barrels for serfs.

My take is often from how I was Mentored and raised.
Some interesting folks, and the kind of folks that one hears "we cannot talk about it" or "we don't discuss those kind of folks"

You want hard lead pellets for buckshot. So mix about 5-7 % antimony in, and you can use malto meal, cream of wheat, farina and similar, for your buffering compound.
Winchester calls theirs "grex".

Measure thrice on everything, stay within weight of payload, and the 5% rule of reloading shot shells.

Like I said, I don't mess with this as I used to. I miss my Mentors, some notebooks and equipment.

Yeah I piddled with some tungston pellets about 00 buck size as well...

I and mine used to buy Winchester Western 2 3/4 " , nine pellet 00 buck, and the lead slugs by the pallet.
These came in 25 round boxes

I mean we had 25 pallets of these between us, always, as 25 was our min number of keeping these in inventory.

Just a hedge , just in case, as these loads patterned and grouped in our guns.
One concern was, that was the issued load for many Police Depts and what if...

 

[wnycollector]

Anybody try the Fiocchi nickel plated buck? 7 bucks for ten rounds seems like a pretty good deal.

I use it in my Maverick. It patterns pretty well (~6" @12yards w/ cyl bore) and is inexpensive. I picked up 200 rounds of it for ~$100 from the sportsmansguide.

 

[monkyboy1975]

I use it in my Maverick. It patterns pretty well (~6" @12yards w/ cyl bore) and is inexpensive. I picked up 200 rounds of it for ~$100 from the sportsmansguide.

Wow thats what I call a deal! I'm gonna have to pick some of that up.

 

[ChemicalArts]

Re: Bismuth.

Allow me to clarify.

The reason we were messing with bismuth, and other alternatives going was Gun Control.

I was born in the mid 50s, and Mentors & Elders, were concerned about gun control,
Some of my Mentors spent time with duties in regard to Cold War. Others were not from the USA and had been in conflicts in their homeland.
More reasons, and these folks were real deal folks had btdt, or still were.
...

Thanks for the background story. That was interesting.

 

[Ricky B]

the plating adds more resistance to deformity.

Not really. The plating is measured in thousandths of an inch, and the substrate is still lead. The real benefit of plating is that it reduces the friction between pellets, allowing the pellets to flow more smoothly. Less friction can translate into less deformation. Deformation of the spherical nature of shot is the enemy of good grouping.

many shotguns will pattern a standard Nine pellet , 00 buck shot load from a 5 pack better - if- that shell is uncrimped, and one pellet removed, leaving 8.

Question: is the shell re-crimped? If not, then the powder would not generate the expected pressure, and velocity could be substantially less (not to mention possibly greater muzzle flash and blast). Even if re-crimped, given the lighter load for the powder to push, I would expect the pressure to be reduced, and although the load is lighter, the velocity might actually suffer. Have you measured the velocity before and after?

 

[sm]

Have you measured the velocity before and after?

Yes.

Shells were re-crimped.

This was some time ago, and included once fired hulls, and brand spanking new hulls that had not been factory loaded/
Factory components, such as Fiocchi nickle plated buckshot.
Factory used powders, wads, shot, primers...
Waxed paper hulls to the Compression formed to....


Just some fun stuff to do with , not anal or compulsive, instead a fun hobby that I did.
I had a Stan Baker Bore Diameter tool to measure barrels, and messed with fixed chokes, and was real interested in the differences of mfg barrels.
Winchester chokes do not get the respect they deserve. My testing confirmed that choke was well thought out and how the Win barrels were made from chamber to muzzle.

I cut apart new shells, looked at components and weighed powder charges , wads, shot, buffering material if they had them.
Took a small jewelers saw and cut pellets into to see the plating and to get a feel of hardness and compared to see the difference in antimony percentage made...

Brister called all this Art & Science and he was correct.
I had the honor and pleasure to meet Brister and shoot with him. I met Stan Baker...

Just something to do for a break from what all I was doing.
Sometimes I was asked to test and evaluate, and not told what all I had, just test it, and keep notes.

My deal has always been to learn the correct basic fundamentals of shotgunning, pattern the gun and know what that gun likes at yardages for targets, and just shoot the durn thing.

My attitude was "If I can see it, I can fell it" and I was not the only one.

Not meaning to sound wrong, still just gimme a gun, some loads and I'll run with it.
I prefer slugs for serious use, and this comes from what I did and was exposed to in a hi risk setting.
Not many of you will have arrangements set up such and might have to shoot through one way mirrors, but I and mine did.

It is said one year when I was competing, I got a bit carried away, and shot over 50k shells in a years time.
It was normal for me to shoot 25-30k a year.

My fun and hobby times...consisted of days like-
I would have a pallet of Winchester/Western nine pellet 00 buck and pallet of Winchester /Western slugs, loadings many policed depts issued and shoot various guns, barrels, chokes and make notes.

Seriously, six police guns, exactly alike, with consecutive serial numbers, and they would vary in pattern and groups.
Brand spanking new guns to be issued and I got to play with them first.

I measured those guns with the Stan Baker tool. Oh the barrel might of said "Cyl bore" , trust me, those guns had some choke.

Hence another reason why I do not suggest whacking off a barrel and not having any choke.
I tested my share of these as well.

I had my share of non concentric chokes , and add improper gunsmithing to install chokes too I tested.
Me, I would just a soon stay with fixed chokes.

Still I did shoot guns to check POA/POI ,and pattern, and groups before barrel was sent to have screw in chokes installed, and check it with the same loads when it got back.

Some folks did a fine job, some did not and I could always tell when a kitchen table gunsmith had done one.
I have told more folks to not get screw in chokes than I have suggested they do so.
When I did, it was most often a barrel burst at the muzzle due to mud , and bought for a good price, if not given to them. Then b/t what all I had done, the experience of others,and the aftermarket screw in choke folks, we got a load to work for someone with loads.

There is some magic with a 21", 23" and 25" barrel. Hence the reason I always preferred the 20" barrels on "police" and "riot" shotguns.
There are a few barrels that were made, and one I know for sure still is, that is highly sought after, and I and others keep it a secret.
One member here, a friend of mine, waited a long time to get one, and now has more than one.

It does wonderful things with buckshot and slugs.
It is not a long barrel, it is a fixed choke...and that is all I or he, will share.

Find what a gun likes, have other choices to shoot the gun likes in case the favorite load is not available.
Then to heck what everyone else says , or uses. Use what works in your gun, and know how to run that gun.

This is not rocket science...

 

[groda]

I agree, stick with lead.



Re: Bismuth.

Allow me to clarify.

The reason we were messing with bismuth, and other alternatives going was Gun Control.

I was born in the mid 50s, and Mentors & Elders, were concerned about gun control,
Some of my Mentors spent time with duties in regard to Cold War. Others were not from the USA and had been in conflicts in their homeland.
More reasons, and these folks were real deal folks had btdt, or still were.

Peoples already were not allowed to have guns like "Police" or "Military, for instance in some countries. What if that happened here in the US?
So we put back 20ga, 28ga and .410 single shot shotguns,
Police and Military use "repeating" , 12 ga shotguns

This was before JFK was shot in Dallas,in '63, I was in the 3rd grade when that happened.
GCA '68 was yet to happen.

Folks ordered guns and had them delivered at home COD. They used to, Gov't stopped that...

Still Mentor were thinking out of the box, what Tyranny might do and one something was restricting lead.

We already had a buckshot and slug load for 28 ga. Veterans from previous wars, and Polio victims could tote these guns, and shoot them.
Some of those Vets were amputees, and had all sorts of injuries which limited them.

We used 28 ga a lot for bird hunting, skeet of course, and felled slews of Ducks, with lead pellets.

So when Non-Tox was being jacked and jawed around, some ideas were already figured out, or pretty much anyway.

Some Mentors were making bismuth pellets and some were in buckshot sizes.
We wanted a load in case the government restricted lead, along with whatever else they did.

Deer fell to the lead 28 ga slug. Deer had been and why not? 28 ga is .550, and that is not far off the mark from .54 caliber which has a history felling two legged and 4 legged creatures.

NILO trials.
NILO, is OLIN as is Winchester reversed.
If you have not read this, look it up, very educational.

Our viewpoint was from gun control, and goes way way back.

Take barrel length. WE knew about guns, loads, pattering, choke, and we wanted choke.
We did not cut barrels down. Not often anyway, some of our testing required us to do so...

So what if gun control says only Police and Military can have short barrels?

I forget what year, still Ireland imposed a 24" min barrel length.

That negates 18.5 "riot" and 20" "police" barrels for serfs.

My take is often from how I was Mentored and raised.
Some interesting folks, and the kind of folks that one hears "we cannot talk about it" or "we don't discuss those kind of folks"

You want hard lead pellets for buckshot. So mix about 5-7 % antimony in, and you can use malto meal, cream of wheat, farina and similar, for your buffering compound.
Winchester calls theirs "grex".

Measure thrice on everything, stay within weight of payload, and the 5% rule of reloading shot shells.

Like I said, I don't mess with this as I used to. I miss my Mentors, some notebooks and equipment.

Yeah I piddled with some tungston pellets about 00 buck size as well...

I and mine used to buy Winchester Western 2 3/4 " , nine pellet 00 buck, and the lead slugs by the pallet.
These came in 25 round boxes

I mean we had 25 pallets of these between us, always, as 25 was our min number of keeping these in inventory.

Just a hedge , just in case, as these loads patterned and grouped in our guns.
One concern was, that was the issued load for many Police Depts and what if...
__________________
Use Enough Gun
TFL illuminaughty

what

 

[357wheelgunner]

Warning: THR is not responsible for the following information:

Actually...many shotguns will pattern a standard Nine pellet , 00 buck shot load from a 5 pack better - if- that shell is uncrimped, and one pellet removed, leaving 8.
Some other things I will not share, based on actual testing, evaluation, investigation and verification.
You HAVE to know reloading , recipes, and have the proper equipment, and experience.

Still, I have gone from all nine pellets in a 9 inch paper plate, to all 8 pellets into 5 inch paper dessert plate.
Everything exactly the same, gun, lot of factory shells,... except 8 pellets.

Nice experiment!

I use Remington LE Reduced Recoil 8 pellet buckshot, and the patterns are rediculously small compared to 9 and 12 pellet loads.

 

[buck460XVR]

Re: Bismuth.

Allow me to clarify.

The reason we were messing with bismuth, and other alternatives going was Gun Control.

here all along I thought it had to do with the toxicity when ingested by waterfowl and other game birds as grit.