Peter Gun
Member
I think I'd keep the same guns, but I would load my .40 w/ 180 grs instead of 165gr bullets. I might consider switching to a .45. My super redhawk would still be my favorite.
Would having to use non-expanding ammo change what handguns you prefer?
- Thread starter Nightcrawler
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Hypnogator
Member
Nerp. Would still carry my .45 auto, but would try to find some 225-gr SWC FMJs. Would carry my P-32 with the flat-nosed FN 7.65mms.
Dorrin79
Member
sort of.
I already think that .45 JHPs are probably the best stopper in handguns.
But I feel comfortable with 9mm JHPs
In the absence of JHPs, I would feel a lot better about .45 FMJ than 9mm FMJ
I already think that .45 JHPs are probably the best stopper in handguns.
But I feel comfortable with 9mm JHPs
In the absence of JHPs, I would feel a lot better about .45 FMJ than 9mm FMJ
Poohgyrr
Member
My .40 Hi Power works well with LSWC's. The .45 ACP works with whatever you can load it with. In revolvers, the .44 Special (LSWC's) would get much more carry time, with the old full power wadcutters in a snub backup. I'd also be much more tempted to have a longarm handy.
Pumpkinheaver
Member
I'd keep my .45acp's and .45 colts.
SAWBONES
Member
Nope.
It'd still be .45ACP, still in a 1911.
It'd still be .45ACP, still in a 1911.
Johnny Guest
Moderator In Memoriam
About the same as consensus so far - -
- - With a couple of additions.
For daily routine, I wouldn't change guns, just magazines already loaded with ball or 200 gr FMJ SWC. Same Commander, same holsters, etc.
If for some reason I needed something smaller, probably would rely on surgical placement with a Browning High Power. I'd look around and try to find some of the Frontier ammo loaded with the Hornady "Air Force" bullet - - 124 gr jacketed truncated cone. Otherwise the hottest 124--125 gr. FMJ I could find.
For my .38s - -Remington used to market a 158 LSWC+P. Accurate, but little chance of expansion.
I'd probably have to let my .357s set in the safe except for hunting, though.
They usually do, anyway, but occasionally I get a wild hair and load one up with Rem 158 JHP and carry it to work. Oh, well - - -
Best,
Johnny
- - With a couple of additions.
For daily routine, I wouldn't change guns, just magazines already loaded with ball or 200 gr FMJ SWC. Same Commander, same holsters, etc.
If for some reason I needed something smaller, probably would rely on surgical placement with a Browning High Power. I'd look around and try to find some of the Frontier ammo loaded with the Hornady "Air Force" bullet - - 124 gr jacketed truncated cone. Otherwise the hottest 124--125 gr. FMJ I could find.
For my .38s - -Remington used to market a 158 LSWC+P. Accurate, but little chance of expansion.
I'd probably have to let my .357s set in the safe except for hunting, though.
They usually do, anyway, but occasionally I get a wild hair and load one up with Rem 158 JHP and carry it to work. Oh, well - - -
Best,
Johnny
Nightcrawler
Member
Why? I mean, any round that'll kill a whitetail (like a .357 Magnum hunting load) will likely do the same to a human....
Edward429451
member
If I ran out of Hydra shoks for my 45 it wouldn't even slow me down. I'd search out some 225 gr TC lead bullets. Whoops, there's some right there.
The revo's wouldnt change 44's got 180 gr WFN in em, backed up by 245 gr SWC's in speedloaders. (44 spec. & mag)
The revo's wouldnt change 44's got 180 gr WFN in em, backed up by 245 gr SWC's in speedloaders. (44 spec. & mag)
Why? I mean, any round that'll kill a whitetail (like a .357 Magnum hunting load) will likely do the same to a human....
END
The problem is not with killing a 22 short can kill a human. The problem lies in stopping them. A 357 solid will poke a nice ice pick hole in the attacker and unless it hits the spine he will be able to keep figthing and kill you long before he is going to die. In hunting that ice pick hole is not so bad as it leaves a blood trail to follow and it does not ruin too much meat. When your trying to stop an attacker its not such a good thing.
Pat
END
The problem is not with killing a 22 short can kill a human. The problem lies in stopping them. A 357 solid will poke a nice ice pick hole in the attacker and unless it hits the spine he will be able to keep figthing and kill you long before he is going to die. In hunting that ice pick hole is not so bad as it leaves a blood trail to follow and it does not ruin too much meat. When your trying to stop an attacker its not such a good thing.
Pat
If non-expanding, I go with .45 ACP in semi-autos, or .45 LC or .44 Special +P in revolvers. I think if all expanding ammo was outlawed, there would be a demand for more 3-4" barrel .44 Special revolvers--since its naturally a bigger hole maker than the .38 special.
Nightcrawler
Member
Pat, unless a hollow point hits something vital, it isn't going to kill you either. And, as a rule, hunters dislike having to chase after wounded game, preferring a clean kill. It's less work that way. And, the hunter has, in my opinion, a responsibility to ensure a humane kill of the animal.
Hard casts are used to ensure adequate penetration from any angle. Expanding ammunition is nice to have, but in my opinion isn't absolutely necessary in a gunfight. (Especially if you're in a situation where the badguys are using cover and you want to punch through it, though this doesn't really apply to a self-defense situation.)
Hard casts are used to ensure adequate penetration from any angle. Expanding ammunition is nice to have, but in my opinion isn't absolutely necessary in a gunfight. (Especially if you're in a situation where the badguys are using cover and you want to punch through it, though this doesn't really apply to a self-defense situation.)
being forced to use non expanding ammunition would almost certainly not change my choice of weapon... 95% of my practice is done with FMJ anyhow and IMO there is no substitute for cartridge/platform familiarity.
even with large caliber expanding bullets, multiple shots should still be the rule until the threats=0
even with large caliber expanding bullets, multiple shots should still be the rule until the threats=0
Pat, unless a hollow point hits something vital, it isn't going to kill you either. And, as a rule, hunters dislike having to chase after wounded game, preferring a clean kill. It's less work that way. And, the hunter has, in my opinion, a responsibility to ensure a humane kill of the animal.
END
Very true. But you missed part of my point. Its not about killing its about stopping. Also hollow points touch more tissue due to their increased size. A .70 caliber bullet is better than a .357 bullet. Hardcase lead bullets are great for game that requires their use like big bears. On people they are far from ideal. As for barrier penetration modern jhp's give up little if anything to ball in this area. Most jhp's collapse inward in hard targets and penetrate about the same as ball.
Pat
END
Very true. But you missed part of my point. Its not about killing its about stopping. Also hollow points touch more tissue due to their increased size. A .70 caliber bullet is better than a .357 bullet. Hardcase lead bullets are great for game that requires their use like big bears. On people they are far from ideal. As for barrier penetration modern jhp's give up little if anything to ball in this area. Most jhp's collapse inward in hard targets and penetrate about the same as ball.
Pat
Sean Smith
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A standing human has less TO penetrate than a critter of comparable weight that is on all fours, and most all wild animals are physically tougher than a human of comparable size (denser bone and muscle, etc.). And, of course, many critters are bigger than people. Hence deeply penetrating ammo might be appropriate for one but not the other.
Scoob had a good point:
I've heard that the flat point of .40 and 10mm fmj makes wounds as large as .45 ball (round nose). Any thoughts? Seems to make some sense, but I don't know.
Does anyone have any data about the effect of a TC versus a rounded point like 9mm FMJ?
Slightly off topic, I just fired a box of that cheap Silver Bear .45 JHP, 185 grain (I think). It has a very TC shape to it -- the angles on the shoulder were straight lines. It looked much more like a stretched .40 than a rounded .45 shape. But it shot well in my 1911, no problems at all.
I've heard that the flat point of .40 and 10mm fmj makes wounds as large as .45 ball (round nose). Any thoughts? Seems to make some sense, but I don't know.
Does anyone have any data about the effect of a TC versus a rounded point like 9mm FMJ?
Slightly off topic, I just fired a box of that cheap Silver Bear .45 JHP, 185 grain (I think). It has a very TC shape to it -- the angles on the shoulder were straight lines. It looked much more like a stretched .40 than a rounded .45 shape. But it shot well in my 1911, no problems at all.
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