Would like info on a Pre-Model 10 and the 38 Special Cartridge

[Corpral_Agarn]

Hi All,
I recently purchased a "pre-model 10", that was made sometime in the 30's (i am told). Serial Number: 65xxxx

As best I can tell, that makes it a Model 1905, 4th Change. Is that correct?
If that's what it is, any additional info on the model 1905 4th change would be appreciated.

My research suggested that before a certain serial number, the cylinders were not heat treated. Anybody know anything about that?

Also, I read somewhere that the SAAMI specs for the 38 Special Cartridge were changed sometime in the early 1970's.
If it was changed, in what way was it changed? Does anybody know what a standard load for 38 Special was before that change?
I would assume that modern target 38 Special is going to be okay to shoot?

I am not looking to max out the loads for this gun or anything, its just that the piece I picked up seems to be in pretty good shape (given its age), I just want to make sure it stays that way.

Thanks THR!

 

[DPris]

Heat treating began to be common by the end of the 1920s. If your gun was built in the 30s, you should be fine with current loads, as long as the gun IS chambered for the .38 Special & not the .38 S&W.

The changes you mention in the caliber somewhat down-loaded pressures, so anything but +P should be fairly mild in terms of stress on your old Smith.

Be aware if you shoot it much, S&W will not service it & can't provide parts if you wear any out.
Denis

 

[9mmfan]

I've seen it said several times that heat treating of the .38 M&P began in 1919 (some have said 1920) beginning with serial number 316,648, per a book by Roy Jinks the S&W Historian.

I was looking into this, as I have one that has been dated to 1920, but a few thousand after that number. There has been talk that he process was refined in the '30s, but I wonder if that was a different process with the advent of .357 magnum in 1935.

Since I bought it, it's had a couple hundred rounds of factory ammo run through it. Since I've started reloading, I have settled on 4 grains Unique under a 158 grain LSWC. Haven't done any real accuracy testing yet, it's mostly a plinker that my wife likes to shoot on camping trips. I like to shoot it too, but I also really enjoy looking at it. I'm kind of a dork that way.

There is a sticky at the top of the this sub forum for identity and date for S&W revolvers. If you post up there, pics and descriptions of markings will help, there are a couple folks that keep up that can give you more info. Radagast was very helpful with info for mine.

There is also some debate as to pre-war Smiths being carried fully loaded, as there was an instance in 1944, I think it was, where a revolver was dropped onto the deck of a ship. The hammer block failed and the gun discharged, killing a sailor. The block was subsequently improved.

There are a couple Smith & Wesson specific forums you might look into as well, though I would think the sticky I referenced should give you all pertinent info. Some of those folks might wander into this thread as well.

Enjoy your .38, it is most definitely a classic.

 

[Jim K]

IIRC, the .38 Special that was downloaded was the +P; the standard load pressure was unchanged and should be OK with any S&W revolver chambered for the .38 Special.

S&W will not support those guns but there are still some parts for M&P's of that era. Pre-1905 guns are no longer supportable, and few internal parts interchange with the newer models.

Jim

 

[rcmodel]

The SAAMI .38 Spl +P rating system came about in 1974.
At that time standard pressure was lowered, and +P was increased very slightly over what used to be standard pressure, and Hi-Speed ammo was dropped from production.

As of 1975, .38 Spl standard pressure was 18,900 CUP, +P was 22,400 CUP.
As of 1998 it was 17,000 PSI and 20,000 PSI.
As of today it is 17,000 PSI & 18,500 PSI.


Prior to 1974:
The Standard pressure 158 LRN grain factory load was rated at 855 FPS.
The Hi-Speed load was rated at 1,090 FPS.

Under todays SAAMI standard, the same 158 grain load is rated at 755 FPS.
The +P is rated at 890 FPS.

As you can see, +P is no more likely to damage a modern gun then standard ammo was likely to damage it in 1970, or 1950, or 1930.

And it is way less likely to damage it then those old .38 Spl Hi-Speed loads that were much closer to todays .357 Mag then todays .38 Spl, either standard, or +P.

rc

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

Wow, Thanks Everyone!
I appreciate the information! I am checking out that S&W Model 10 thread right now. VERY informative.

Bummer about parts being hard to find.

Since I've started reloading, I have settled on 4 grains Unique under a 158 grain LSWC...
...I like to shoot it too, but I also really enjoy looking at it. I'm kind of a dork that way.

I have a soft spot for old revolvers, old levers, old bolt guns... and Sigs! I'm not sure, but I think I am a dork, too...

Thanks for that load suggestion too.

The SAAMI .38 Spl +P rating system came about in 1974.
At that time standard pressure was lowered, and +P was increased very slightly over what used to be standard pressure, and Hi-Speed ammo was dropped from production.

As you can see, +P is no more likely to damage a modern gun then standard ammo was likely to damage it in 1970, or 1950, or 1930.

And it is way less likely to damage it then those old .38 Spl Hi-Speed loads that were much closer to todays .357 Mag then todays .38 Spl, either standard, or +P.

rc

Thanks for that info, rc. Just to be clear, you are saying that today's +P's could be shot out of this guy if I needed it?

I will certainly not be doing that on a regular basis, but I like the idea of be able to, should I need it. Looks like modern 38 target ammo is gonna be the diet for the time being.

 

[Old Fuff]

I estimate the frame on your revolver was made in about 1936 to 1939 - most likely more toward the latter. The problem is that the complete gun might have been assembled later. At the time S&W made it a practice to serial number frames and put them into inventory. As orders came in they would pull out frames in random order and assemble them. If you want to know the exact details and are willing to pay $50.00 to get them you can have the revolver lettered. You will find details on Smith & Wesson’s website: http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...4_750001_750051_757825_-1_757814_757812_image

Unquestionably you have a heat treated cylinder, but they didn't use the same steel and process that was used exclusively on the .357 MAGNUM model during and after 1935. Mainline P+ shouldn't hurt your revolver, but some smaller companies push the limit! Going too far wouldn't likely blow up the gun, but might expand the chamber(s) and ruin the cylinder.

Excluding abuse or basement action jobs parts are not likely to fail. So long as you don't damage the frame, cylinder assembly or barrel a search will turn up what you need, but don't expect them to be inexpensive.

Since it's unlikely you'll use this particular piece in a gunfight do take the precausion of resting the hammer down on an empty chamber. The risk is very small but why take any chances?

 

[jaaea]

With a 4 inch K model 38 special made in 1969, I'm having trouble finding standard pressure 38 special. I have some Hornady 125 Grain xtp but they are suspending that production in favor of 158 Gr xtp. I can get the 110gr non plus p critical defense but I don't know how that will perform in this 4 inch. Does anyone know? Thank you!

 

[rcmodel]

With a 4 inch K model 38 special made in 1969

Then it is perfectly fine with +P ammo.

Don't worry about it.

rc

 

[Jim Watson]

The collectors do not call anything but a post WW II short action S&W a "Pre Model 10" or whatever number. Yours is much earlier from a day when the guns had names, not numbers.

 

[Radagast]

Guns in the 650xxx range shipped in 1935, in the 672xxx range in 1938 & the 685xxx range in early 1940.

The Model of 1905, was just that, a major design change to the .38 M&P in 1905. The 4th Change refers to the 4th design change after that. I think, but am probably wrong, that it refers to the rebound slide being added to the design.

 

[Hondo 60]

I'm not sure, but I think I am a dork, too...

If enjoying older model revolvers is dorkish, then I think all of us gun guys & gals fall into that same category.

My personality has been described as a computer geek, a football nerd & now a gun dork.
I resemble all three of those remarks

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

The Model of 1905, was just that, a major design change to the .38 M&P in 1905. The 4th Change refers to the 4th design change after that. I think, but am probably wrong, that it refers to the rebound slide being added to the design.

Howdy

Yep, you're wrong. The rebound slide was added to the first version of the Model 1905. It was a major design change from the older trigger lever and rebound lever from the Model 1899 and the Model 1902. The rebound slide made the gun much safer, wedging the hammer back from a round under the hammer by the bump on top of the rebound slide. The other major design change of the Model of 1905 was the reciprocating cylinder stop, powered by a spring behind a screw in front of the trigger guard, making the Model 1905 the first five screw Hand Ejector. These two features are still in every S&W revolver made today, except there is no longer a screw in front of the trigger guard, the cylinder stop spring has to be wiggled out of the frame from inside. I like the original 1905 design with the separate screw, makes the spring much easier to remove.

The major design change of the Model 1905 4th change was the first type of hammer block safety.

 

[Radagast]

Thanks Driftwood Johnson.

 

[Jim K]

The major Model 1905 Fourth Change was the addition of a hammer block safety that consisted of a slot in the sideplate into which was set a leaf spring pushed back into the sideplate by a plunger operated by the hand. The plunger and its spring also acted to operate the hand. There were some other minor changes. The safety change did not take place all at once - it was phased in from April, 1915 to July, 1926.

The hammer block safety was apparently not satisfactory, since it was changed (without any new model or "change" number) c. December, 1926 to a type also set in the sideplate but operated by a sloped ramp on the hand. This was the type that famously failed, resulting in the change to the type used today.

Jim

 

[Radagast]

And thanks to you Jim for the extra info.