Would you consider this a good shoot?

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ceetee

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I'm on the fence.

Naked man feared to be an attacker shot and killed west of West Palm Beach
Police say he banged on doors, terrified family

By Jerome Burdi | South Florida Sun-Sentinel
July 18, 2007


Jonas Morisma died naked, a gunshot wound to the chest.

Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office investigators know who killed him but have not made an arrest. The shooter was trying to protect a woman and her children, deputies said. He feared for his life when he saw the naked, 170-pound man lunge at him early Tuesday morning in an apartment parking lot west of West Palm Beach, investigators said.

"Don't come at me, don't come at me," the shooter said, according to Sheriff's Office spokeswoman Teri Barbera.



"And he lunged toward him and he shot him," Barbera said.

So far, it all looks okay. Then:

Morisma, who state records show has been arrested twice on drug charges, was under the influence of drugs, his girlfriend told investigators.

He ended up at the apartment complex on Lake Arjaro Drive, west of Military Trail off 45th Street, before 5 a.m., and first attacked a tow truck, Barbera said. He banged on the driver's windows, then tore the lights off the top of the truck and began swinging them around like a lasso, investigators said. He then began banging on apartment doors and punched through windows. A woman with her children ran for cover, scared for their lives, Barbera said.

At the same time, he was removing his clothes, Barbera said. He ran to the second floor of the apartment complex and banged on doors. One resident came out with a gun, police said. He followed Morisma downstairs and screamed at him to leave.

The man shot Morisma when Morisma lunged at him, police said.

Link to story

Florida allows the use of deadly force to prevent the imminent comission of a forcible felony. I guess you would have to ask yourself what forcible felonies were being committed, or were imminent. At first blush, I have to say that if the shooter had not followed the naked lunatic around, yelling at him to leave, then the naked lunatic would never have had the opportunity to lunge at him. Somewhere in the back of my mind, though, is the nagging suspicion that the world is a somewhat safer place today.

Thoughts?
 
Not enough information in the news for us to draw a conclusion, but when you have naked lunatics running around in a hopped up state ripping equipment off of vehicles and brandishing it as a weapon it is hard to argue against the age old adage that "some folks just need killing".
 
If only the naked guy were holding some kind of blunt object as he lunged.

Bare hands; I can't see it being a real clean shoot.
 
I don't think following the guy would be a problem. There's nothing wrong with confronting a lawbreaker with non-deadly force. I'm sure that he took the gun along just in case the situation escalated.

The question is, "does an attack by a doped up naked man require deadly force?".
 
It's a little hard to equate "feared for his life" with "followed him downstairs." I'd not be following around anyone I was scared of, that's for sure.

But it's up to the FL State Attorney, not me. Have to wait and see what that decision is.

lpl/nc
 
doubt very much if he'll be charged . In Florida , I'd say good shoot , in Mass , your going to prison . We'll see if the DA agrees with me .
 
I don't see any problem with what the apartment resident did.

If I'm armed, and someone lunges at me, then I could only presume that he intends to take my gun and use it against me.

If he can tear lights off of tow trucks ... :uhoh:
 
People under the influence of PCP have a tendency to get naked, they also have a tendency to not feel pain and can run on broken legs, etc...I wouldn't want anyone obviously under the influence of chemicals to get close enough to touch me.

The shooter acted under the circumstances that he felt he was under. If he felt he was in danger, then he made the appropriate response.
 
Its hard to tell without being there and knowing all the facts. News reports quite often don't release all the details. Most of the time they don't have access to them for their report, anyway.
 
I have watch 6 BIG police officers loose control of someone hyped up on drugs. If he lunged at me I'd have shot also. If some crazy is running around my neighbourhood terrorising everyone I'll call the police UNLESS someone is in immediate danger. IOW I probably wouldn't have left my apt. until it was necessary. I'm not a cop nor am I superman or Bruce willis so I'm not invincible :rolleyes: , however I WILL try my best to defend a child from danger even if it turns out to be a "bad" shoot in the eyes of the law.
 
Sounds like PCP to me... they get naked because their body is running extremely hot and the bizarre aggressive behavior is in line with that as well. I'd need to know more details before I could say whether it is a good shoot; but based on what I've read I would be inclined to favor the shooter.
 
Agreeing with the above that we do not have all the facts, and just going by what the media tells us, I would come to this conclusion. It is a "good" shoot, however he will have trouble equating fear for his person and then chasing the guy. So probably not a criminal charge where the burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt.
On the civil side, I think this guy is going to get sued to shreds. Again, pursuing the individual will be difficult to explain, and the burden of proof is less than in a criminal trial.
From a moral standpoint, I really wish our society had a way to deal with people like this so that they wouldn't run around neked in the streets getting themselves shot. I think we ought to offer up a prayer for all involved in this story, as it likely will not end well for any involved.
 
I'm a little concerned about him following the man downstairs. Not exactly 'I feared for my life.' However, he had already attacked a truck and people's doors. I would think that this would depend a lot on changing circumstances. Maybe the man fled the shooter's door before he answered and ran downstairs. The shooter went to investigate... Ran into a naked guy banging on trucks who attacked him? Maybe he /did/ follow the guy right downstairs and noticed someone else coming home in a car and he waved them off when he was attacked? Maybe the naked guy was about to attack someone else and he might've been willing to shoot to defend them?

Too little information, to be honest. But a naked guy who's raving and beating up heavy trucks isn't exactly a benign individual. I'd call it clean.
 
He does not need to fear for his life at the moment that he decided to leave his home and make sure that the druggie was not hurting anyone. He only has to fear for his life at the moment that the druggie attacked him.

It would surely be better for him if he had called the police but I think he still has a pretty reasonable defense.
 
It's the "But then" part of the OP that makes it a good shoot

The guy had already attacked a truck and used parts of it as a makeshift weapon
He had already committed forcible felonies by breaking out the windows of apartments and trying to possibly gain access to the homes
He was a clear and imminent danger to the community

Those facts alone give our hero the right to use force and possibly deadly force(already established case law)
Years ago a gunman came into a business and shot and killed a few people
Two survivors followed the man as he calmly rode away on a bicycle
They pulled up next to the man and shot him dead
No charges were filed because the man was an imminent threat to the community
Neither man will say which one actually fired the shot

The fact that the crazy man attempted to attack the guy after he had already kicked a truck's butt pretty much lends some credibility to the fear for life defense
 
I'm not a fan of prosecutors...

The question isn't if he was legally justified in shooting this guy, the question is if prosecuting this guy would make the prosecutor look good at election time. NIFONG, anyone?


Charging a man with the murder of a drug-soaked naked puke with a trail of criminal activity who lunged at his attacker? not much there.
 
Well I'm pretty sure that the world is probably a safer place as a guy that's going to strip off his clothes, who's trying to attack motorists and vandalizing vehicles and property during a rampage is more than likely either really mentally ill or on some serious drugs or both and is probably going to commit some crimes in the future.

But basically the guy got shot because he was naked, because he was vandalizing peoples property and scaring them, because he actually tried to attack people and because he lunged at the guy with the gun which could have led to an innocent persons murder. I can understand someone being freaked out over a strange guy going on a mentally ill or drug fueled rampage and destroying property, but it's not worth shooting someone over UNLESS he actually attacks someone physically (which he did). At that point (when he actually attacked someone) I believe it's completely legal to shoot the guy if it's to protect someone else that's unable to defend themselves or to protect yourself or your family.

He tried to attack the driver of the tow truck and managed to actually rip off the emergency lights with his bare hands (which shows that not only is he really strong and that you're more than likely going to be unable to restrain him by yourself using a hold or other non-lethal means but that's he's completely out of control) and then he tried to attack the lady and her kids. So the shooter was just trying to make sure that he didn't hurt anyone when he was lunged at so that's the part that made it a "good shoot". The guy with the gun was right outside his home (so he had a reason to be in the area) and these people having their cars ripped apart and windows smashed were either his neighbors or were probably his neighbors. Even if they weren't his neighbors of course he wanted to help them as the lady and her kids are basically defenseless against such a threat. I wouldn't just sit there and watch some lady and her children get attacked by some freaky naked guy without helping them either.

To me it's a good shoot because he actually attacked people, the part where he was naked and destroying peoples property in a rampage is just icing on the cake and paints a little worse picture making it even better for the shooter. Even if this happened in California or New York I don't see how anyone could see it any other way, but then again I'm not some criminal coddling liberal either.
 
I went looking to see if I could find any indication the SO had passed the case along to the DA for a charging decision- apparently not yet. But there was a bit more information in another news story.

lpl/nc
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http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2007/07/18/c1b_SHOT_0718.html

Morning rampage ends with man shot, killed
By ROCHELLE E.B. GILKEN
Palm Beach Post Staff Writer

Wednesday, July 18, 2007

During an overnight rampage, a 20-year-old man fired shots at his girlfriend's place, ripped the lights off a tow truck, broke windows at two apartments, scared a man out of his own home and stripped off his clothes.

But he ended up dead on his back in the parking lot, buck naked, with a bullet in his chest at 5 a.m. Tuesday, according to the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office.

Jonas Morisma, 20, who goes by the nickname "Black," was shot by one of the residents in the Lake Arjaro Drive apartment complex - off 45th Street near Haverhill Road in suburban West Palm Beach - after the resident said Morisma threatened him as well as two women.

The sheriff's office did not name or arrest the shooter and will turn the case over to the state attorney's office to determine whether to file charges.

Morisma's rampage began shortly after 4 a.m. at the Canterbury Drive home he shared with his girlfriend. He became agitated and fired shots at the sliding glass doors from inside the apartment, then went outside and fired more shots into the air, the sheriff's office said.

He dropped the gun, told his girlfriend to do whatever she felt was necessary and drove his GMC sport utility vehicle a few blocks away to Lake Arjaro Drive. He parked on the lawn in front of a building. Friends at the scene said he often went there to hang out.

On Tuesday morning, he banged on the window of a tow truck and tore off the lights. The driver fled and called 911. Morisma hit a car with the lights and broke the windows of two first-floor apartments where women were sleeping inside, the sheriff's office said.

He went into a man's apartment on the second floor, and the man ran out in fear for his life. Meanwhile, Morisma stripped off his black shoes and jean shorts and boxers.

A neighbor heard the commotion, went outside and told Morisma to go away. When Morisma made a threatening move toward him, the man fired, the sheriff's office said.

Morisma's girlfriend had spent the morning trying to call him, but he didn't answer his phone. Finally, her friends told her he had been shot and took her to the scene at 9 a.m.

She told deputies he may have been using drugs. An autopsy will be done to determine whether he was under the influence at the time of his death, the sheriff's office said.

He had four prior arrests, including two for drug possession.
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Ripped off a light bar from a tow truck? Sounds like a feel-no-pain kinda druggie...

Usually, an ******* would be a small target... in this case it sounds like it was a big one...
 
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