Sad story,what would have you guys done ?

[Arc-Lite]

my reading of Preachermans post was simple...the reality is... we ALL are responsible for our choices.

 

[Phyphor]

MrTwigg said:

>Talking about lynching or going after these guys (As despicable as they are.) isn't going to accomplish anything worthwhile.<
*********************

Yeah...you're right. The Brady Bunch would probably just raise a cry to register all ropes...

NO HONEST CITIZEN NEEDS MORE THAN 8 INCHES OF ROPE!

Nylon rope is acceptable, hemp is promptly banned.

 

[308win]

It seems to me that it is a good thing the three perpetrators are stupid or the victims would be dead.

 

[Lindenberger]

Today's Youth

I believe public hangings should be brought back. I strongly believe that less murders would be commited, less vehicles would be stolen, assault and battery would happen far less, and crime in general would decrease. If you grow up seeing public hangings and knowing what they were hung for, I don't think you can use some lame-butt excuse in your defense as "but I really didn't understand that I was doing anything wrong". Far too many excuses for crime these days is that the youth has no connection to realism. Well, let them see one of their buddy's get hung. I'm sure reality will sink in quicker than any of these stupid "reality" TV shows that they watch these days. The credo that everyone should live by is....."do unto others as you'd want done to you".....Today's youth has twisted it to state, "Do unto others before they get the chance to do it to you".......yeah....hang them.....hang 'em high!

Quite right. Recently where I live there was a rash of convenience-store hold-ups, at knife-gun-machete-point. Finally the kid went into a liquor store with what was later found to be a pellet-gun. While he was holding up the clerk, the owner came from the back of the store and let him have it with a 12-gauge. Turns out he was a star football athlete at the local high school.
His school friends, their parents and various other kooks actually held demonstrations across the street for days, blaming the victims for killing the little X!@#! This is what the "liberal" crowd has brought us to, here in the Democratic People's Republic of Maryland, formerly known as "The Free State."

 

[Cosmoline]

The male victim, 21, was pistol-whipped and "stomped" after the couple was pulled from his SUV about 1:30 a.m., Wagner said, adding that he and the woman, 23, were drinking coffee at a dead end overlooking the Great South Bay.

Keep doors locked.
Keep an eye out and USE YOUR MIRRORS
Keep a good dog with you
Keep iron close at hand and in a position where you can bring it to bear instantly if someone attacks from the flanks of your vehicle.
Keep your keys in the ignition when you're sitting in your car, ready to engage the engine.
If a group tries to block you in, run them down without hesitation.

If someone tries to force their way into your car, do not ask them what they're doing or try to play the tough guy. KILL THEM INSTANTLY. Hesititation=death.

You're very vulnerable in your car, much more so than you probably realize. You only have a very narrow widow of time to defend yourself and escape. Once you're out on the ground, the game is over and you're dead meat. Do not make the mistake of assuming your car is your castle and nobody will be able to get you in there. In your car you're ALREADY pinned down in a very weak position, one which negates the use of your legs or major muslce groups in self defense. It's like fighting when strapped to your chair.

If you have no iron, you're actually better off leaving them the car and high tailing it than trying to sit in your car and fight them off by hand.

If you have iron you MUST be prepared to blow the mo-fo's face through the back of his head at your window. Having a rifle behind the seat is usless, and having a pistol in the glove box isn't all that great either. A few years back some bum came up to my car window trying to get me to take him for a ride to the next bus stop. The experience drove home to me how absolutely helpless I was when stopped in traffic. Ever since I always keep a loaded magnum within easy reach of my right hand.

 

[Cosmoline]

Oh, and Rule No. 1

NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER TRUST GROUPS OF TEEN-AGED BOYS WANDERING AROUND!

They're the nexus of most evil in the world. When I see a group of teens milling around or driving slow, I scope out good cover and have a revolver ready to go in my coat pocket. They're bad business. They WILL kill you. They kill people all the time, day in day out. When older men kill, it's much more likely to be their wives or rivals. For stupid, pointless murders in the street teens are the leaders. The grave yards are full of well-meaning neighbors, samaritans and cops who thought that young kid really wasn't going to use that firearm. Don't be stupid, and don't give them the chance to end your life. Avoid them like a wild animal, and if you're faced with one threatening deadly force, don't be afraid to put him down. I don't care if he's 13. You'll just be saving the world from all those years of evil he'll be doing.

 

[Rafterman191]

I know several guys in NYC

in fact the 191 in my name represents 191st St. downtown. I recently was trying to help one of them along getting a permit to carry. First he didn't think it was possible to get one, after some searching for him found it he could get a permit to carry. Problem was just to get a permit to own a friggin hand gun was $500!!!! How much do you suppose those punk teens paid for their permit to carry? In Indiana, you no only have the right to use deadly force to protect yourself or others from imminent danger, you also have the right to protect personally property by use of deadly force. Only a couple states left like that. In short, I wouldn't hesitate to put a bullet in anyone violating, or threatening to violate me and my girl that way.

 

[Srigs]

This is why I lock the door on my cars and truck while driving. I always carry more than one gun!

 

[crofrog]

One way or the other they'd be dead, or I would be. It's really that simple. Once the flag goes up and it's game time. There is no time and no need to worry about anything other than killing your oponent.

 

[justashooter]

Tellner and others who disagree with my post above: I'm sorry, but on this one we're poles apart, and will stay that way.

As far as I'm concerned, if you put yourself in a position where harm may come to you, you're the first link in the chain that leads to that harm. Sure, sometimes this is inadvertent - for example, if I stop at an intersection with a runaway vehicle without brakes coming up behind me, there's not much I can do about this, and no way I could have any forewarning. However, when it comes to stopping in a secluded area where crime is a known factor, I'm sorry, but you're on your own. You really should know better!

Nature hasn't changed in umpteen thousand years. Put yourself in a position where you could be hurt, and sooner or later the odds are going to catch up with you. That's life.

gotta go with the preacher on this one. i have been foolish enough to know not to. these two young people will never be so foolish again.

the 3 hoodlums? they will get what they deserve.

would i have used the SUV as a 3000# projectile when looking at the business end of a barrel? prolly. would i have been shot for my trouble? maybe. would i have been carrying, and showed them my gun? shot them first? sure thing.

 

[GrammatonCleric]

My Reaction

My reaction to that situation would be as follows: Use the F*****s as lead sponges. I carry a Glock M21 with 230 grain hollowpoint rounds. I also carry two spare 13-rounder magazines. I do have a couple of ideas regarding what should happen to the punks, anybody here read "The Hard Goodbye?" Remember what Marv did to Kevin?

 

[AnthonyRSS]

I'll tie the nooses for free, with good hemp and 9 coils. But I am going to write it off my taxes.

 

[Otherguy Overby]

Justice?

I'm quite sure these miscreants will not receive any real justice.

Two are under 18 and the other is just 18. Anyone care to bet that the 17 year olds will be out before they are 21 and the other when he is 21. Of course their incarceration will be in some criminal prep school so expecting them to repent rejoin society as good citizens is not promising.

The "wild" west had it right. Society here has gone downhill since it abrogated it's right to justice to a "legal" system. You do recall it was legal system that tried and convicted all those "witches" in New England.

 

[ColoradoKid]

Victims

The root cause of the two victims problem was....they were both in "Condition White"...!!

 

[carebear]

I have to voice strong disagreement with the post by Preacherman.

The implicit logic is that ... anywhere bad guys hang out is off limits ... and if you go there, you're responsible for whatever happens to you.

1. the criminals are responsible for their actions ... this couple lived there all there life ... as do thousands of others.

2. Just how many square miles of this country are we supposed to turn over to the scum of the earth. What do you do when they decide they want to rule in your neighborhood.

There's a huge difference between being a responsible, aware adult and thus realizing that going off away from other good people to a secluded place and allowing your guard to drop by being romantic might not be safe and thus taking steps to counteract potential threats in advance and "turning over square miles to scum".

Personal responsibility means not going someplace/doing something just because you have a right to but instead being willing to accept the reasonable, predictable risks that go along with your choices. This couple didn't plan, didn't prepare and suffered the not unforeseeable consequences of their actions.

Life's hard, it's harder when you're stupid.

Yes the criminals are the only ones guilty of a crime, but the two soft targets shouldn't have been sitting there, in condition white and apparently helpless, for them to rob in the first place.

 

[para.2]

Preacherman said:
"Those who argue otherwise are in the same position as those who argue that a woman bears no responsibility for rape if she wears revealing clothing, behaves in a sluttish manner, and goes where men who don't respect women are known to hang out. Sure, she has the "right of consent" - but if she behaves in such a manner that she implies availability, she must surely be aware that there are those who do not and will not respect her "right", and will behave accordingly."


Count me as one who makes that argument. We are aware that there are those who do not repsect our right to go armed. Should we voluntarily disarm to avoid their wrath?
If a woman chooses to walk naked in Central Park at night, and is attacked, she bears no "responsibiltiy" for that attack. She should (even if she chooses to wear a burka at high noon) be prepared to fight off predators, but either way, the full "responsibility" for the attack is on the attacker.
I don't know you personally, Preacher, but if that is the attitude you present to your congregants, I am happy not to.

 

[joab]

So let me get this straight if we were to lynch or shoot these guys "like sick animals" we wouldn't be murderers because they have proved themselves worthy of our scorn and they put themselves in the position to be lynch worthy so it would be their fault.

But people who negligently put themselves in position to be robbed by these guys hold no responsibility for making themselves look like prey to predators.

Life is hard it's a whole lot harder when you refuse th see that

 

[para.2]

Joab, if you want to put it in those terms, then yes, that is precisely my position. There have always been, and there will always be sheep. They cannot help being sheep. That is the way they are wired.
There also have always been, and will always be, wolves. They, too may be wired that way.
That does not prevent the sheepdog from trying to intervene, and, when he can, take down a wolf. That is the way he is wired.
I don't attach "blame" or "responsibility" to the prey for being prey. I do attach "blame" and "responsibility" to human predators for taking advantage of prey. Being human, they have a choice. The argument could be made that the human prey does, too, but there are (thankfully) fewer predators than prey, so I focus on them.

 

[joab]

But wouldn't it be easier and more productive to focus energy on the prey

Sheep can not help but be sheep, people are not condemned to that fate.
They were taught to be sheep they can be taught not to be.

I realize that it does not sound as manly to say I wish I had been there to advise these people on the danger of their actions as it does to say if I had been there I'd have put two in the scum's head.
But which would really be more productive

 

[ctdonath]

I'm afraid part of the problem is limitations of the English language; we need a word that constitutes "culpable and not culpable", or some way of indicating total blame across multiple parties can add up to >100%.

1. The assailants are 100% at fault. They chose to act out evil, and should be drawn & quartered for doing so.
2. The victims are (may be) somewhat at fault. Not knowing the setting in question, I can't evaluate whether parking there is closer to studying in a library or streaking thru Central Park at midnight, as far as creating an attractive nuisance is concerned. If they chose a high-vicitimization zone, they surely have received more than their fair share of punishment for doing so. Sometimes stupidity IS painful.

The arguments seem to constitute "the assailants are at fault" vs. "the victims are at fault." Realistically, both are: the assailants chose to victimize, and the victims chose to go unarmed in paradise (surprise, it wasn't).

 

[Can'thavenuthingood]

Take them to the zoo and rub them down with the scent of the female gorilla. Then toss them into King Kong's cage.

Sell tickets.

Vick

 

[para.2]

Man, I love this site! We seem to disagree strongly, but we do so intelligently and civilly. I doubt either of us will change the other's mind, but our arguments are there for all to see.

I don't think "manliness" enters into it. Three fewer predators-vs-two fewer sheep. In my mind the choice is obvious.

 

[RayDog]

There will always be those that pray on others. All we can do is try to avoid being in a bad spot and should the need arise be able to defend yourself and loved ones. People like those that attacked this couple should be shot on the spot, but unless the guy was a cop he's not allowed to protect himself. We need people to apply for CCWs and if denied keep a copy of the letter. If something happens to you or a loved one you need to sue the city and state for not allowing you the right or means to defend yourself.
I'm not a sue happy type and think there are way to many BS cases in our courts, but until the STATE is shown we will hit them in the pocketbook nothing will change in places like NJ, NY,DC and Kali

 

[joab]

I don't think "manliness" enters into it.

Probably not from you, but just wait others will be along soon to with tales of how they would hunt them down like dogs. What am I saying they're here

Three fewer predators-vs-two fewer sheep. In my mind the choice is obvious.

But you tell two people and they tell two people and soon one of them can shoot the bad guys.
Of course if I was the callous type I would say that the way events played out effectively eliminated the three predators and probably two sheep
I don't mean to imply that the victims deserved what they got or even that they asked for it.
But if you choose not to arm yourself or to live in a place where you are not allowed to you do have the responsibility to protect yourself by other means.
Situational awareness will always be my weapon of choice.

 

[Cosmoline]

Joab, if you want to put it in those terms, then yes, that is precisely my position. There have always been, and there will always be sheep. They cannot help being sheep. That is the way they are wired.
There also have always been, and will always be, wolves. They, too may be wired that way. That does not prevent the sheepdog from trying to intervene, and, when he can, take down a wolf. That is the way he is wired.

You're completely wrong. What you're offering here is the same load of nonsense that's been delivered by the SLA Marshall/Grossman/Killology camp for decades. The assumption is that most human beings cannot kill other human beings. Only a small percentage are "hard wired" to kill. The "wolves." The "sheepdogs" are the ones who are also hard wired to kill but turn their abilities to protect the sheep.

There's absolutely no basis for these claims. We are all the same species of Homo sapiens sapiens. We didn't get to the top of the food chain by being "sheep." Every one of us is hard wired to kill. And as history has shown, we're extremely good at it.

The wolves/sheep/sheepdog view of the universe FEEDS DIRECTLY into the theories of the antis. They have long been arguing, in effect, that only the "sheepdogs" should be allowed to have firearms. When you spout this nonsense, you are supporting anti-gun positions.

It's one thing to argue that those who have chosen to disarm themselves are behaving like "sheeple", it's quite another to suggest as you do that they are genetically different from other people and cannot change. I used to be an anti, so I know it can be done.