Would you draw?

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txhoghunter

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Okay this is not a hypothetical situation, it was one that I was faced with, however I am not old enough to CCW.

I was in front of my house at around 11:30 PM (it is not a bad neighborhood at all), and two young men, I would say in their young 20's, ran up to my house and starting looking into the windows. One had a bag in his hand, and I could not make out if they were holding anything else.
Now, I was only 20 feet from the furthest one, and they did not see me until I made my presence known and they fled.

My question to you is, if you were in my shoes in this situation and armed, would you draw your weapon? If you did, would you be trying to tell them to get on the ground and hold them until police arrived?

What else would you do in this situation?
 
Probably not, but would have moved toward cover, and yelled something charming to the two indivuals inquiring as to what they wanted. I would have had my hand on the gun, but still concealed incase a threat was perceved. If one of them had reached into the bag, I would have taken that as a possible threat.
As it was, no harm, no foul.
 
I understand the cover idea, however, they were between me and my front door. The only cover available would have been a very thin tree....

Since this was on my property, would I legally have been able to (again, if I was old enough to CCW) produce a gun even if I could not identify a weapon?
 
I would have stayed in cover and waited to see what they had in mind....then would have taken the appropriate measures.
 
I think what you're asking is more regarding your state's law rather than what other people would do in that situation.

In my case, I'm a smaller guy (5'7", 150lbs) and 2 on 1 can be dangerous to ANYONE. As to what I'd do in the situation as posted, I would likely light the intruders up with my flashlight and order them to identify themselves or leave quickly, with my hand on my pistol until I'm certain they are no threat.
 
Let me add the last part to the story and see if it changes anything. One of the windows that was being looked into was that of my little brother (10 y/o). If they were trying to see into your children's room, would that change how you would approach a situation like this?
I would have stayed in cover and waited to see what they had in mind....then would have taken the appropriate measures.
Just for the record, this is more or less what I did.
 
Legally, I am 99% sure it is legal in Texas to draw on someone in this situation. I just feel that if I was armed, I most likely would have drawn my gun because of the 2 on 1 odds and the fact that they are scoping out my house at almost midnight.


I'm just curious as to what other people's approach would be
 
I'm from the school of "if you draw you shoot"
I would not have drawn as long as they stayed on the other side of the glass.
A 911 call would be in order though

AFS
 
911 was called, and when I informed them of that is when they ran. I guess it just rattled me a little that there were two guys over 6' tall within 10 yards of me who could have intentions to break into my house. And myself being a whopping 5'8" would not be able to do much to stop them. And again, I was outside with them....
 
In texas you don't have to have a ccw permit to carry wether openly of concealed on your own property even if your not 21.
 
In texas you don't have to have a ccw permit to carry whether openly of concealed on your own property even if your not 21.
Yes, but my mother would not buy a handgun.....until after this happened
 
Posted by txhoghunter: My question to you is, if you were in my shoes in this situation and armed, would you draw your weapon?
Absolutely not.

If you did, would you be trying to tell them to get on the ground and hold them until police arrived?
NO! Making a citizen's arrest is permissible only in the case of certain crimes, and this is not one of them.

If you do not already know this, if you ask them to get on the ground and they elect to not comply, you may not shoot.

Legally, I am 99% sure it is legal in Texas to draw on someone in this situation.
On what do you base that belief?

I just feel that if I was armed, I most likely would have drawn my gun because of the 2 on 1 odds and the fact that they are scoping out my house at almost midnight.
You think they might be "scoping out your house"? Do you think you can draw a gun on someone for that?

I guess it just rattled me a little that there were two guys over 6' tall within 10 yards of me who could have intentions to break into my house.
I'm sure it would rattle me, too, but a belief that someone "could have intentions to break in" to one's house does not justify the drawing your gun.

Now if (1) one of them was in fact attempting to enter, or had entered, the house, unlawfully and with force, and (2) the house was occupied at the time, you would have been justified.

Two other things:

For the answer to a legal question, one should really consult a practicing attorney in your jurisdiction rather than rely on people in electronic space.

Also, it would be a very good idea to not try to rationalize drawing a gun or shooting under various circumstances, but to try to avoid doing so whenever humanly possible.

I have friend who is an executive in the security business and who served over the years in various senior positions as a police officer. He has been involved in or attended numerous police hearings, grand jury sessions, and civil i\and criminal trials, in varying capacities. As a civilian, he is no longer indemnified by the community. He does carry concealed. Here's what he says about drawing his gun:

"My gun will only come out when I am about to die!"
 
On what do you base that belief?

The reason I believed this was because they were on my property, at 11:30 at night and were trying to see inside of my house by going window to window and sneaking in between bushes. This to me shows that there could be a problem. However, I did not say that I knew if it was completely legal or not, which is one of the reasons I posted this. Being that late at night, and 2-1 odds, I could not clearly see their hands at all times and felt that it would be justified drawing a weapon to prevent a serious crime from being committed.

Again, I am not 21, and the reasons I am asking this is to gain further insight into the law so that when I am, and when I get my CCW, I will be a better informed citizen.
 
Would You have been justified in "Drawing" on them... I could argue a strong case for it under the circumstances give..

Would I have "Drawn" on them, pulled my pistol, yes, pointed it at them.. I dunno...

If you wait until the threat perceived is real to draw, you are already dead, the fastest draw I have ever seen is to already have it in your hand.. more on the legality of that in a minute.

Lighting, the bag, type, weight.. dress, demeanor... all would become part of MY equation. Was it a hidden away side window, or was it in front near a sidewalk.. How far was the house set back off the street? All of these are questions that may later come op post incident by armchair legal experts looking to hang you... Either Civil or Criminal..

TxHogHUnter, you and I have the great fortune of residing in the Great State of Texas, where property owners and residents still have some rights and flexibility under Texas Law.

Would you be LEGALLY Justified in pulling a weapon... First lets look at when force is justified... in your case the BIG Gamechanger is NIGHTTIME...

§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.

Please note that the 1994 Legislature saw fit to remove, criminal trespass during the nighttime from the list of justifiable defenses. However, why else you someone carrying a bag be looking through your window at 11:30 at night if not to commit a burglary or a theft.. Please note that there is no aggregate dollar amount attached to the theft.. I could legally be for any item of value.. Morally, that is a question for you to place a dollar figure on... if it it too little, surely a Civil Jury will do it for you long after the fact.

As far as "Drawing" a weapon... here is the Texas Law on that...

9.22. NECESSITY. Conduct is justified if:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct is
immediately necessary to avoid imminent harm;
(2) the desirability and urgency of avoiding the harm
clearly outweigh, according to ordinary standards of
reasonableness, the harm sought to be prevented by the law
proscribing the conduct; and
(3) a legislative purpose to exclude the justification
claimed for the conduct does not otherwise plainly appear.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.

One would argue Necessity, by, It was 11:30 at night, they were at MY HOME with out reason, cause or connection to the home.. they were carrying a bag, a burglars bag?,a bag with a weapon?... they looked like a burglars,, burglars have to have some sort of tools to break in, any tool can be used as a weapon (manner of intended use).[sec 9.01 tx Penel (3) "Deadly force" means force that is intended or
known by the actor to cause, or in the manner of its use or intended
use is capable of causing, death or serious bodily injury.
Translation: If they have a weapon in that bag on on them, then to keep them from using it, I showed them mine...

And Lastly..

§ 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of
force is justified when the use of force is justified by this
chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or
serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as
long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension
that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the
use of deadly force.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.


This simply means that a show of force is not the use of force, by merely having a gun in your hand is not the use of force.. So if I am conducting a one sided conversation with a burglary suspect in my front yard at 11:30 at night, and I have a gun... Ahh, It's ok.. Your a Texian.. We can do that..

Oh Yeah... now for the SPOILER.... Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD... Just because you didn't get arrested, doesn't mean that you won't get sued....

§ 9.06. CIVIL REMEDIES UNAFFECTED. The fact that conduct
is justified under this chapter does not abolish or impair any
remedy for the conduct that is available in a civil suit.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.


And that is what really SUX about it all.... or in the words of Tony Soprano: "There ain't nothing in the Constitution about being Fair"... BUt Personally, I like one of JOHN WAYNE's Quotes even better.."Life it tough, it's even Tougher when your stupid." Ah your visitors were Stupid..
 
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Ah your visitors were Stupid
That they were...

And no, my house is not set far off of the street at all. When a car came by however, they ducked behind the bushes which made me think that their intentions were less than good. And the fact that they were in the bushes made seeing what their hands were doing next to impossible.

The only things that I was able to tell the responding officer was that there was one white male and one black male, with the black male holding what appeared to be a small duffel bag (about the size of a range bag). And general physical descriptions of each. (and again, I was within 10 yards of them both)
 
Posted by txhoghunter:...which made me think that their intentions were less than good.
Probably right. However, what was lacking was immediate necessity to prevent theft at night or burglary, because they were doing neither. Your suspicion about their intentions does not count.

It is not clear either that you had reason to believe that the use of force was immediately necessary to terminate trespass. Yes, you could make a case for it, but if you were asked whether you had asked them asked to leave and you answered in the negative, and if they happened to offer a plausible explanation for their presence, your case might not stand.

If you are thinking about drawing a gun (and that implies that you are not being attacked at the time, or you had better be beyond thinking about it), you should always first ask yourself, "just what is it that I intend to do with this thing?". If you "order them to the ground" and they comply, you are then responsible for their safety and liable for both criminal and civil remedies, and you are not indemnified against either, nor would your defense be funded by the community. Don't try it in a case of trespass--you'll lose. If you order them to the ground and they leave, you had better hope you do not fire negligently.

No, pulling your gun to cause an apprehension that you would use deadly force if necessary would not in itself constitute using deadly force in Texas, but had they been armed, it could well have resulted in your being shot. While it is probably unlikely, they might even have prevailed in a defense of justification afterward.

Since they were between you and the door, I'm sure it was a little scary--maybe more. I do carry, and had I been in your shoes I would have been very ready to draw (actually, I cannot guarantee that I wouldn't have), and I would likely have challenged them verbally.

And I would also have been very, very worried. You saw two men. You could not see their hands at all times. How many men were there? Was there possibly anyone behind you in the dark? Maybe with a shotgun?

My point is, having a gun does not make any of us bulletproof, and being out in your yard at night does not constitute being in a tactically sound position.

A couple of years ago, an airline mechanic in Houston heard someone doing something with his trailer at night. He took a shotgun and went outside to investigate. He was well within the law in Texas.

He was ambushed by at least one man with a knife, stabbed, disarmed, and shot, and his arm had to be amputated.

The lesson learned is to not leave a defensive position unless it is essential. Doesn't really apply in your case, but it's worth thinking about as you ponder the possibilities.

I hope you find this helpful.
 
Thanks Kleanbore, it does all make very good sense and does help alot. Pretty much right along the lines that I was thinking after looking through all of these responses.

I guess my biggest complaint here is not that I did not have a gun to draw at the moment, but that I did not have a gun to draw should the situation have escalated to a more dangerous level.

My point is, having a gun does not make any of us bulletproof, and being out in your yard at night does not constitute being in a tactically sound position.

I was not just out and about my front yard haha. I was actually waiting for my girlfriend to arrive so I could walk her inside safely being it so late at night. Kinda coincidental huh? I don't want to know what would have happened if she would have walked up to the front porch with them waiting in the bushes.
 
Posted by txhoghunter: I was not just out and about my front yard haha.
Please do not infer that I was in any way being critical of your actions. I was just making a point about what might or might not have been the thing to do next.

Finding oneself in a less than desirable place at a bad time can happen to any of us.

When it does, and I know this does not apply to you yet, one thing that happens is that we realize that we cannot just carry when we "think we might need to."

Good luck!
 
Don't worry, I was not thinking you were criticizing my actions at all. I'm just glad that I was there, even though I didn't have a gun, to keep her from running into a bad situation.

When it does, and I know this does not apply to you yet, one thing that happens is that we realize that we cannot just carry when we "think we might need to."
Once I get there, I intend to carry whenever and wherever I can. I'm with the "I would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it" crowd.
 
Are you at least 18? Grab you a rifle, or shotty. Texas has some of the most lenient gun legislation so I hear. Personally I wouldn't draw til they produced a weapon or entered my home.
 
Re-holstering in most concealment rigs is usually more complicated than drawing, sometimes a good bit so. You see, when you draw a pistol sooner or later you have to do something with it, and usually that means putting it away again. Usually it's better to leave it where it is, if there is any doubt about having to use it.

Plus, under stress short of circumstances requiring the immediate application of lethal force, having both hands free is usually an advantage.

So if you don't really need a pistola RIGHT NOW, it's usually best to leave it securely holstered, right where it is. Plus it doesn't frighten any of the usual folk who might be bystanding if it stays concealed, thus avoiding :what::what::what: reactions and multiple panicked 'man with gun' 9-1-1 calls.

And please leave the citizens arrest stuff to Gomer Pyle ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9efgLHgsBmM&NR=1 ), even if there are provisions for it in your state's legal code.

Once again, some good professional defensive firearms training will help answer a lot of this sort question, and some well run force-on-force training will help with a lot with others. A session or two with a good criminal defense attorney in your jurisdiction should clear up the rest.

hth,

lpl
 
I wouldn't have drawn but I probably would have gripped my CCW pistol while turning my left side towards them so they couldn't see what I was doing. At that point I would have said something or just continued to watch while calling 911 on my cell phone.

The situation would be very different if I saw that they had any kind of weapon, if my family wasn't in the house then I would be going somewhere else while calling 911. If my family in the house then I would be drawing and getting ready to fire unless they left immediately.
 
What's wrong with just holding your gun down by your side, so it can't be seen until you figure out what the heck is going on. Also you could have just said that you called the sherriff already and they were on the way. This would have the desired effect of seeing their reaction immediatlly without giving them time to think. Chances are if they were up to no good they would have just got out of there fast. But having your weapon down with your finger off the trigger, with a slight tilt so as not to be seen, would have been the best move for me. No harm no foul, about the re holstering issue, I don't think that should be a concern untill after the situation has past. It's a lot better than groping for a gun if someone started shooting at you in the dark.
 
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