How Critical is Draw Speed?

[mikerault]

We all know the scene, two men facing off amano amano and the winner is the fastest one to the draw. Now, how often in real life does this happen? In almost every case I have read about the BG has their gun out first or you have several seconds of warning of a BG in your house, store, whatever. I don't ever recall a story of a person defending them themselves from a bad guy where draw speed was really a major factor in the outcome.

Now, if non-LEOs have some actual verifiable cases where draw speed was a critical part of their defense in a real BG verse GG situation I would love to read them!

 

[docnyt]

Logic dictates that slow draw speed can be hazardous to your health. Moving while drawing can get you out of the BG's sight picture and is even more desirable. Or so I have been taught by Tom Givens at Range Master.

 

[mikerault]

Again, when have these skills been used? I go through the action reports the the NRA and USCCA publish monthly and I can't recall a single one where speed of the draw would have made a difference.

 

[David E]

It may well be that a fast draw won't matter. But it may well be that it will.

To rely solely on a fast draw to get you out of trouble is stupid. To deny that a fast draw could be important is also stupid.

Could lacking a fast, reliable draw make a difference? Absolutely! Remember the FBI shoot out in Florida? At least one agent drew his issued S&W Model 13 handgun and put it on the passenger seat of the car. Odd, he'd never been trained to do that.... So why did he do that? Because he thought he could get it faster from the car seat than from his own holster that he was wearing. Maybe he could've, but the car crashed, sending the gun flying to parts unknown. He couldn't find it and drew his 5-shot J-frame backup from his ankle holster and entered the fray. He ended up badly needing his Model 13 moments later.

If he had practiced his draw enough to be confident in it, he could've begun his counter attack with a full-size handgun that he's fired instead of a 5-shot snubby he'd fired less. Maybe the outcome would've been vastly different. Who knows?

There is a famous video of two cops during a traffic stop. Badguy decides to shoot the cops, so they try to quickly disengage, but one cop tries to draw from his security holster. One tug, Two tug, Three tug, FOUR! It finally came out. They lived, despite their ineptnitude. Does that mean a fast, reliable draw doesn't matter?

A fast, reliable draw could matter...............a LOT.

 

[FourteenMiles]

Here is a case in L.A. of a Jeweler named Lance Thomas who had multiple run-ins with armed crooks. Apparently he drew his firearm while held at gun point. He even has the mustache to match...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkWgp2abM2w

His situation might not be exactly reflective of yours or mine, but it's something.

 

[killchain]

How fast do you want your muzzle pointed at the enemy?

That's how critical draw speed is.

 

[Al Thompson]

OP, I think you have a very valid point. Working through the OODA loop, the "act" part is but a 1/4th of the equation.

I've "needed" a handgun a few times and found that while speed was not that big an issue, having a smooth draw stroke was an issue/advantage. Not having to think about drawing meant that when I needed the pistol, it was there, no fumbling around.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

The "rules of engagement" (using the term somewhat loosely) generally prohibit drawing a gun until the very last second. When the moment finally arrives, does it not make sense to be able to draw it smoothly and with a reasonable degree of speed? You are already "behind the curve" by having to clear concealing garments. This is why I dislike many types of "unconventional carry" or "deep concealment," holsters that do not permit a full grasp on the gun butt, etc.

 

[2ndAmFan]

I once had a friend who could practically shoot circles around me with a handgun, except when it came to drawing and firing accurately from concealed carry. I practiced a lot using an empty pistol so I was quick and smooth with a loaded one. I'll take any edge I can get when it comes down to a LF encounter. I want to walk away, not be carried.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by mikerault: We all know the scene, two men facing off amano amano and the winner is the fastest one to the draw. Now, how often in real life does this happen?

It is the stuff of fiction.

In almost every case I have read about the BG has their gun out first or you have several seconds of warning of a BG in your house, store, whatever.

If the the "BG" has his gun pointed at you, you will almost certainly not be able to draw and fire before he shoots you. If someone has broken into your house and you become aware of it before he gets to you, you should have a lot more time.

Now, if non-LEOs have some actual verifiable cases where draw speed was a critical part of their defense in a real BG verse GG situation I would love to read them!

Most people who have been engaged in justifiable acts of self defense have been advised in advance as part of their training, or after the fact) to not discuss the incidents publicly, and if they have not been, they should not do so anyway.

Think about it. In virtually every jurisdiction, it is unlawful to pull a gun and display it to someone else in a threatening manner until one has reason to believe that force is required to defend oneself; in most, one may not draw except in the course of a lawful act of self defense. To do so would constitute a crime.

One may not use deadly force to defend oneself unless he has reason to believe that the danger of death or great bodily harm is imminent, that the assailant has the ability and the opportunity to harm him, that the defender is in jeopardy, and that he has no other means of avoiding harm.

So, one cannot pull the gun until the danger is upon him. According to exercises conducted by dennis Tueller, a person seven yards away can approach a victim and use a contact weapon in about a second and a half.

If he is much further away than that, justifying pulling a gun would likely be difficult under many circmstances.

Given that, do you think that draw speed is critical?

 

[Old Fuff]

Wild West fiction is exactly that, so for this discussion it should be put aside.

As has been pointed out, under most circumstances one cannot use deadly force except to respond to an illegal, lethal attack. That means that incoming rounds may already be in progress or unquestionably about to happen before the person under attack can start.

Bill Jordan, as well as others, repeatedly proved that they could draw, fire, and hit they're target before someone else could react and pull the trigger on a cocked revolver (pointed safely down range). In other words if you train well enough for long enough you can beat an opponent's reaction time.

As Jordan said, this skill was a law enforcement officer's technique that had nothing to do with Hollywood, and as such it could, and had, saved lives. The same principals can apply to others.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Can't recall who originated this one, but it wasn't me...

Q: How long do I have to draw my gun in an emergency?

A: The rest of your life.

lpl

 

[Losov]

Can't recall who originated this one, but it wasn't me...

Q: How long do I have to draw my gun in an emergency?

A: The rest of your life.

lpl

First heard that one applied to jump training with respect to deploying the reserve chute. Works well in both applications.

 

[M2 Carbine]

While draw speed can be a critical factor, and I do practice timed point shooting a lot, speed alone won't win a gun fight but accuracy will.
You can not miss fast enough to win a gun battle if the other guy is slower but accurate.

The way I score my practice, one missed shot is a loss, no matter the speed. I figure the other guy won't miss.

Personally, I have had to draw my gun four times. Every time I had time to cock the hammer and aim.




.

 

[geekWithA.45]

How Critical is Draw Speed?

Well, it has to NOT SUCK. Any reasonable job beats obvious fumbling that telegraphs your intention and results in your piece being unceremoniously dumped onto the ground at the bad guys feet.

Also, it's not the way to bet if the bad guy already has you covered, and is intently watching your hands.

All things considered and SUCK being avoided, it's realistically 2nd or 3rd priority, because action beats reaction, and much more time than the 1.7 or 2.3 seconds it takes to draw and get on target will be expended in the OOD part of the OODA loop.

As I said at the conclusion of this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7037798&postcount=30

If you spend some time looking at videos of actual danger nearby, you'll see that danger gets a free hand for like, 5, 10, 20 seconds or more before people start reacting.

Roomfuls of people don't die because of extended capacity magazines. Roomfuls die because they mostly sit around going "duh?" in those critical opening moments of danger.

 

[Snowy Rivers]

I remember a statement from Mas Ayoob that is as clear today as it was back in 1990

"Never draw on a drawn gun"

Every situation is a "Dynamic" and all you can do to prepare is to be good at shooting, smooth and reasonably fast with your draw.

Practice what Mas Calls the "Stress point Index"

This is a simple technique that works well.

At close range (10yds or less) as the gun comes out and up into your view (focus on the threats center of mass) as soon as the fornt sight is on the target, cut loose, you will make the hits.

I have taken new shooters that have never fired a handgun and have zero bad habits and taught them this trick in a few short minutes.

Shooters that have a lot of bad habits may take longer.

I am not sure that draw speed is a real biggy, just be able to do it all without having to give it a second thought (auto pilot mode)

Gods speed may help though.

Snowy

 

[BullfrogKen]

Critical as compared to what?


Yes, there have been many and numerous encounters that seem ordinary at first that suddenly turn violent. It's often under circumstances where someone who has a job interacting with the public now needs a gun to protect himself - right away.


But a smooth and sure draw is better than a hurried and sloppy one. If you can do both fast and smooth, great.


I'd say it's no more or less important than focusing on skills that help us not get shot. Learning how to read the environment and working on social skills to see it coming make ultra-fast draws less necessary. Very often crime victims relate how they knew something bad was imminent, but they did nothing in those seconds, or sometimes even minutes leading up to the attack.

Moving while drawing can get you out of the BG's sight picture and is even more desirable. Or so I have been taught by Tom Givens at Range Master.

Tom and I are in complete agreement on moving off the line of force. If we don't do things that help avoid us getting shot while we deliver our blows, the best we can do is tie.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Fast is fine ...

But accuracy is fine-al

 

[ChCx2744]

I think there are more important things to a sudden violent gun battle than a fast draw. Yeah a fast draw will definitely help, but in reality, the ability to reflexively point shoot accurately trumps a quick draw (I.E. practicing the "Flash sight picture"). That being said, you should always practice drawing as quick as possible, but getting that sight on target is the most crucial IMHO.

 

[Chris Rhines]

Damnit, but I hate that trope.

Is a fast presentation important? Absolutely. Is a fast presentation the be-all-end-all of surviving a gunfight? Probably not, but it certainly helps.

My rule of thumb - an average shooter with a semiautomatic handgun can fire 4-5 rounds per second. If I can improve my concealed draw from 2.0 to 1.5 seconds, that's two fewer rounds that he can fire at me before I stop him. Probably worth spending some training time on, no?

-C

 

[RX-178]

I have an instance that was told to me by my shooting buddy Zee.

His grandfather was a judge, and carried a double action S&W that's old enough that I don't know what model it is, and I don't know exactly what caliber it was. I saw the actual gun though, Zee still has it.

Anyway, his grandfather carried it in a holster, waaay back when. Somebody, apparently displeased with how a certain case went, walked up the courthouse steps just as he was leaving, and tried to pull a gun out of a coat pocket and shoot him. His grandfather, drawing from a holster, was faster, and shot the man first.

I for one, don't doubt that these events happened.

 

[aryfrosty]

Fast??

I won't try to certify that I know this to be a fact, but I read that Wyatt Earp once said that fast wins the gunfight and that "Fast is slow and smooth". I don't worry about being quick...I worry about being slick. If I pull it I already know that I am going to use it. In 1971 I won a gunfight on the job and did so by taking my time and getting on target before I pulled the shot off. The Orc shot once before I did but didn't have time to shoot again due to the fact that he was ducking and covering and was worried about what was going to happen again. He survived with a hole in him.
And I worked for a lot of Superior Court judges in 40 years, like the poster above said, I don't doubt anything about judges. One of my favorites had a habit of calling me into chambers to talk "guns" before he opened court in our circuit. And he wasn't bashful about opening up his robes to show me what he was currently carrying. Our agency was the only one in the circuit with a range and this absolute gentleman would ask to use our range and come a few times a year to do the GDAC, (Georgia Double Action Course).

 

[troyriser]

Reading this thread brings to mind Jack Weaver's famous quote (paraphrasing to make it present tense), "A pretty quick hit is better than a lightning-fast miss."

I'm 50 now, middle-aged, and I can't depend on youthful reflexes, so I train repetitively, doing the draw time and again in private, striving for unthinking presentation, attempting to apply something my good friend and karate sensei Larry Bader kept stressing years ago, which was defensive techniques based on Musashi's dictum of 'Munen Muso'; that is, 'no mind'. Once committed to a course of action, the action should take place without pause caused by either thought or the shock of violence.

If, when an attack is imminent or underway, one thinks to himself, I will now draw my weapon, then one is dead.

 

[JShirley]

Mu works really well. At some point, conscious thought can't keep up, and we have to rely on our training. Correct training is therefore vital.

I recall a story about a LEO trained by one of the old greats. He actually got in some trouble because he realized there was a danger, outdrew the threat, and shot him dead without any of his comrades realizing they were in danger! He was so fast he was accused of murder, until his mentor testified on his behalf, demonstrated his speed with an unloaded revolver, and then casually mentioned that he wasn't as fast as the man on trial.

Mas may have written about the case, actually.

John

 

[TheProf]

"Speed" in a gunfight is really a factor of many things:

1. Situational awareness
2. Psychological readiness to defend one's self.
3. Tactical wisdom (knowing and seeking escape routes when possible; positioning one'self in an advantageous position if unable to escape)
4. If a gun fight ensues... moving off the "X" as one draws the weapon. (Movement buys you time.)
5. Choosing the right weapon platform and mode of carry.

The actual speed in which one clears the weapon from the holster is probably the least important factor in developing "speed" in a gunfight.

What good is it to have the fastest draw out of the holster but lack the psychological mindset that "I'm in a gunfight and this is really happening to me?"