GTSteve03
Member
+1
I'm pretty sure that a CCW owner has a duty to protect themselves, and anyone else that they choose to help in the course of their actions is a decision left up to themselves alone.
Taking the Shot - Would YOU?
- Thread starter Werewolf
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I'm pretty sure that a CCW owner has a duty to protect themselves, and anyone else that they choose to help in the course of their actions is a decision left up to themselves alone.
308win
Member
Not in Ohio.
bs32
Member
My ccw is to protect myself (and those individuals who are with me - usually family) with potentially lethal force (applied as needed or otherwise required). It is not so that I can protect some guy getting beat up at the ballpark, my neighborhood, the community, or the greater world - in absence of, or in conjunction with, our duly sworn law officers, be they local, county, state or federal. Homie don't intend to go there. Sue me if you want for my "inaction" but I know some good lawyers too. Let them clean up the details.
bs32
[Happines is a belt fed weapon]
["You have the right to remain silent" is always EXCELLENT advice.]
bs32
[Happines is a belt fed weapon]
["You have the right to remain silent" is always EXCELLENT advice.]
target4fun
Member
yeah you never know what the situation is or if its "real or not" (there have been actors shot, when renacting crimes for tv shows) also know who is the bad guy and if the innocent are about to get killed or not... thoses are my factors I would look at if I dont know any of the listed above i would just mind my own close friends and family only....
I voted family member and child.
The others would be a maybe.
The problem with "stepping in someones shoes" is you may not know the whole story and you may just end up killing a victim, who may have just wrestled the gun from the perpetrator (for instance). If my family member is in peril of their life, I know my family well enough to know that they are truly the victim. Same goes for a child in peril of their life at the hands of an adult.
Otherwise, if I could do so safely, I might try to intervene; or if not, create a distraction; or if not, be a wintess; or if not, get out of harms way.
The others would be a maybe.
The problem with "stepping in someones shoes" is you may not know the whole story and you may just end up killing a victim, who may have just wrestled the gun from the perpetrator (for instance). If my family member is in peril of their life, I know my family well enough to know that they are truly the victim. Same goes for a child in peril of their life at the hands of an adult.
Otherwise, if I could do so safely, I might try to intervene; or if not, create a distraction; or if not, be a wintess; or if not, get out of harms way.
I would only intervine if I knew for a fact that it was a forceable felony. In Georgia our laws are pretty straight forward as to where potentially deadly force can be used.
In the best I can remember; You can use deadly force if you are in reasonable fear of severe bodily harm or death to yourself, or an innocent third person or to stop a forcible felony.
I know a lot of you would not due to the possible litigation and maybe jail time. How ever I would if I knew it needed to be done. Not for everyone but some will feel the need to protect the innocent.
In the best I can remember; You can use deadly force if you are in reasonable fear of severe bodily harm or death to yourself, or an innocent third person or to stop a forcible felony.
I know a lot of you would not due to the possible litigation and maybe jail time. How ever I would if I knew it needed to be done. Not for everyone but some will feel the need to protect the innocent.
In the gang related shooting if I were with someone who was in another part of the store I would get involved , I doubt store shelves stop bullets very well and their life would be in danger . If I were alone and could find cover or simply leave the area I might remain uninvolved .
As far as an armed robbery goes I would need to see the whole thing start or be very very sure I was protecting an innocent to toss my hat in the ring . It could be a druggie ripping of his dealer for all I know if I walked into an ongoing situation .
Now if I actually witnesses people being shot/executed I wouldn't hesitate to start shooting .
As far as an armed robbery goes I would need to see the whole thing start or be very very sure I was protecting an innocent to toss my hat in the ring . It could be a druggie ripping of his dealer for all I know if I walked into an ongoing situation .
Now if I actually witnesses people being shot/executed I wouldn't hesitate to start shooting .
ezypikns
Member
Not to put too fine a point on it, but you DO know.....
that a CCW/CHL licensee isn't a law enforcement officer? (addressed to all on this thread.) In other words, you may feel that it's your moral duty to protect folks with your weapon, but I'm not aware of any state law that requires you to enforce the law. I could be wrong.
that a CCW/CHL licensee isn't a law enforcement officer? (addressed to all on this thread.) In other words, you may feel that it's your moral duty to protect folks with your weapon, but I'm not aware of any state law that requires you to enforce the law. I could be wrong.
1911 guy
Member
A little disturbing.
So, according to some of you, being concerned about others is a fault. Priorities are indeed you and yours, me and mine. That's fine. My family does come first, as yours to you.
Looking at the world in general, there are some of you who look down on those who would help another as being somehow "wannabees" or dumb.
Would I jump into a situation where I had no clue as to the participants? No. But to let another get hurt or killed because I "don't want to get involved" is wrong.
You may point to laws and regulations that say ignoring anothers plight is fine, but I have a concience that I have to live with. I also have a moral compass that points to trying to do what's right.
Flame away, but remember how you'd feel if your family or friend could have been helped by a CCW'er but wasn't because he had the same attitude as you.
So, according to some of you, being concerned about others is a fault. Priorities are indeed you and yours, me and mine. That's fine. My family does come first, as yours to you.
Looking at the world in general, there are some of you who look down on those who would help another as being somehow "wannabees" or dumb.
Would I jump into a situation where I had no clue as to the participants? No. But to let another get hurt or killed because I "don't want to get involved" is wrong.
You may point to laws and regulations that say ignoring anothers plight is fine, but I have a concience that I have to live with. I also have a moral compass that points to trying to do what's right.
Flame away, but remember how you'd feel if your family or friend could have been helped by a CCW'er but wasn't because he had the same attitude as you.
on the street its probably going to be family and best friend (if i had one). Its not worth the risk. I will call 911 and witness whatever happens under cover of something solid, like from within a store or behind a car. The last two guys that did my CCW training were of the same mindset. First, I cannot trust what the victim will say (against me?) in court and second, I'm not risking having my jury stacked-up with anti gun people. Too much gray to help a stranger in a DF situation. Besides, if the state I am in has CCW, why isn't the victim packing? If their life wasn't important enough for them to get a CCW and gun, why should their safety become my priority if it wasn't theirs?
Whats it cost to take an attorney to the grand jury? $5K? $10K? $25K? Is the victim going to help me out? I would expect, "I didnt ask for your help" to come at some point in the dialog or how about in front of the grand jury, "...I was just scared and didnt really think I was in danger of death or GBH...".
- good luck!
Whats it cost to take an attorney to the grand jury? $5K? $10K? $25K? Is the victim going to help me out? I would expect, "I didnt ask for your help" to come at some point in the dialog or how about in front of the grand jury, "...I was just scared and didnt really think I was in danger of death or GBH...".
- good luck!No flames from me. I dont care what others do!
I would love to help out and would do so if I could trust the legal system. Give me 100% immunity from criminal and civil prosecution and I will be the communities advocate for the helpless.
What if you shoot, miss, and kill a bystander or make a hit but your round over penetrates and kills a grocery clerk that was watching the event? How do you and your family benefit if you have to spend a life savings on lawyers and still end up going to jail for attempting the “right thing”.
For me it comes down to doing a risk analysis and economics. I don’t fault anyone for wanting to be the hero, just know what it could cost you and your family.
bs32
Member
No flames from me either. Heck, if ya think about it this is even more reason to advocate that individuals carry! Personally, that's why I've got a ccw permit. If you have reasonable belief to think that because of where you live, what you do for a living, where you travel, the business you're in, etc., that you may be faced with some "situations" then get a ccw permit and carry.
Oh, I don't always carry either. I mean not 100 percent of the time -every waking hour. I know there are some requirements for LEOs to carry off-duty, but I'm a civilian and that doesn't apply to me. So, given that, wouldn't those of you who say I've a (legal) obligation to assist - still put me at risk of law suit, if it is determined that, Hey he's got a ccw but didn't have it with him at the 7-11 when it got robbed- he's negligent because he didn't have it with him!
As to the moral obligation - I have to go to sleep at night and live with the decisions I make- I'm alright with that. I'll do what I can and let God and our legal system sort out the rest. If I wasn't carrying that day, place or time and something happens. Sorry. That's the luck-of-the-draw. Life's not fair and I'm not the equalizer.
Oh, I don't always carry either. I mean not 100 percent of the time -every waking hour. I know there are some requirements for LEOs to carry off-duty, but I'm a civilian and that doesn't apply to me. So, given that, wouldn't those of you who say I've a (legal) obligation to assist - still put me at risk of law suit, if it is determined that, Hey he's got a ccw but didn't have it with him at the 7-11 when it got robbed- he's negligent because he didn't have it with him!
As to the moral obligation - I have to go to sleep at night and live with the decisions I make- I'm alright with that. I'll do what I can and let God and our legal system sort out the rest. If I wasn't carrying that day, place or time and something happens. Sorry. That's the luck-of-the-draw. Life's not fair and I'm not the equalizer.
GTSteve03
Member
God helps those who help themselves.
You've got to know what the situation is instead of who the situation appears to involve.
You know your family so you're assured of knowing the BG in the situation.
You know a child is no serious threat so you're assured of knowing the BG in situation.
You know your friends so you're assured of knowing the BG int he situation.
Beyond that you get into greyer and greyer territory.
Of course there are BG family members and BG friends, but you know who they are anyway.
You know your family so you're assured of knowing the BG in the situation.
You know a child is no serious threat so you're assured of knowing the BG in situation.
You know your friends so you're assured of knowing the BG int he situation.
Beyond that you get into greyer and greyer territory.
Of course there are BG family members and BG friends, but you know who they are anyway.
1911 guy
Member
Another Ben Franklin quote?
God helps those who help themselves.
So everyone you know and care about carries all the time? You have no self imposed obligation to help your friends and family?
This isn't an all or nothing proposition. When there's too much grey (you didn't see the situation develop, don't know who's right/wrong, etc.) it's best for all concerned to be a good witness. But there are situations here and there (the mall shooting a while back comes to mind) where taking action is appropriate.
I'm not talking about being the dark avenger or a cop wannabee. I'm talking about being aware of what's going on around you, taking stock of the people around you and realizing that criminals get away with so much because we have conditioned ourselves to run away from trouble no matter what. Sometimes that's smart, other times we need to run to the trouble. How many of you know that the best way for a woman to draw attention to herself to stop an attack is to yell about anything BUT an attack? A thug might be tearing her clothes off and beating her senseless, but yelling about a rape makes people go the other way because they "don't want to get involved". Most women who take classes at PD's or with advovacy groups report being told to yell "fire". Kinda sad. huh?
Who was it that said most people on 9/11 said "thank God I wasn't on one of those planes". Most people are sheep. Others said "I wish I had been on one of those planes, I might have made a difference". Your decision, "woof" or "baa".
God helps those who help themselves.
So everyone you know and care about carries all the time? You have no self imposed obligation to help your friends and family?
This isn't an all or nothing proposition. When there's too much grey (you didn't see the situation develop, don't know who's right/wrong, etc.) it's best for all concerned to be a good witness. But there are situations here and there (the mall shooting a while back comes to mind) where taking action is appropriate.
I'm not talking about being the dark avenger or a cop wannabee. I'm talking about being aware of what's going on around you, taking stock of the people around you and realizing that criminals get away with so much because we have conditioned ourselves to run away from trouble no matter what. Sometimes that's smart, other times we need to run to the trouble. How many of you know that the best way for a woman to draw attention to herself to stop an attack is to yell about anything BUT an attack? A thug might be tearing her clothes off and beating her senseless, but yelling about a rape makes people go the other way because they "don't want to get involved". Most women who take classes at PD's or with advovacy groups report being told to yell "fire". Kinda sad. huh?
Who was it that said most people on 9/11 said "thank God I wasn't on one of those planes". Most people are sheep. Others said "I wish I had been on one of those planes, I might have made a difference". Your decision, "woof" or "baa".
AaronE
Member
to 1911 Guy...
Woof.
BT, DT...worked out OK. Sharpened the wheres and whys that I'd use for the decision tree.
Woof.
BT, DT...worked out OK. Sharpened the wheres and whys that I'd use for the decision tree.
Vitamin G
Member
I really feel like an awful person for this but...
I've known enough battered women who would be the first to defend their abuser... (who would sue me into the ground for killing her poor, misguided soulmate)
Enough troublemakers who love to pick fights, but apparently hate to learn how to fight... (Who would seem like the victim, but were really the aggressor)
Well, you get the point. I trust the character of my family members. I trust the character of my best friend. In fact, we'll discuss "the right of way" when we go out to eat. (Whoever has the larger caliber gets the "honor" of sitting facing the door, back to the wall, etc)
Other people, I'm not so sure of.
Even if there was a 50 year old man struggling with a screaming child, trying to stuff him into a van, I'd likely simply watch, I'm ashamed to say, and get the licence number. For all I know, it could be a spoiled little brat who is mad that daddy didn't buy him ice cream.
Similar to Y2K i suppose... I would be willing to take in those who would take me in. I would be willing to defend those who would be willing to defend me.
I suck at being a good person.
I've known enough battered women who would be the first to defend their abuser... (who would sue me into the ground for killing her poor, misguided soulmate)
Enough troublemakers who love to pick fights, but apparently hate to learn how to fight... (Who would seem like the victim, but were really the aggressor)
Well, you get the point. I trust the character of my family members. I trust the character of my best friend. In fact, we'll discuss "the right of way" when we go out to eat. (Whoever has the larger caliber gets the "honor" of sitting facing the door, back to the wall, etc)
Other people, I'm not so sure of.
Even if there was a 50 year old man struggling with a screaming child, trying to stuff him into a van, I'd likely simply watch, I'm ashamed to say, and get the licence number. For all I know, it could be a spoiled little brat who is mad that daddy didn't buy him ice cream.
Similar to Y2K i suppose... I would be willing to take in those who would take me in. I would be willing to defend those who would be willing to defend me.
I suck at being a good person.
NineseveN
member
I chose all of the options with one clear distinction, that I clearly know what is going on and have a very solid indication that the one I would be defending is in fact the victim.
They say you can test the character of a person by simply watching how they act towards strangers, if I am ever in a dire position and unable to defend myself, I would only hope that some stranger would come to my aid, as I would theirs given that the position was reversed if I could.
They say you can test the character of a person by simply watching how they act towards strangers, if I am ever in a dire position and unable to defend myself, I would only hope that some stranger would come to my aid, as I would theirs given that the position was reversed if I could.
Exactly! I got burned once by my future sister-in-law. Her step father and I kicked in the door to her business at around midnight with the Minneapolis Police because we (all of us) reasonably believed she might be in danger based on the evidence at hand and the unsolved murder outside her building two weeks prior. Well, in the end there was no issue but I received a bill for $90.00 to fix the door jam and a public shaming for showing my concern for her safety. She is hard-core left so it doesn’t surprise me that she cannot connect the dots and see the larger picture. I suppose smoking pot on a regular basis doesn’t help much either. Well, I paid the $90.00 and guess who is no longer on the list of people to “care” about? You got it!”Vitamin G” said:
So, are any of you comfortable having her as your material witness in a self-defense case? I am sure things would not go well for you and your attorney. It’s really too bad but this is the type of society we live in. When or if tort laws are ever reformed, I will reconsider my position on coming to the aid of others where lethal force might be required. If you are wondering if I expressed my opinions to my fiancé, I did and she is okay with it.
brownie0486
Member
tepin:
Good analogy.
Here's one for everyone on the same lines. Cops have a woman being held hostage by a gunman. They set up with a tac team, and it's a stalemate. They determine one cop will advance and get the BG to move the weapon to his presence and at that instance, the rifle will take the shot from 65 yrds out on the BG.
This goes down perfectly, and the woman is saved. No harm except to the BG who dropped like a rock and didn't make it.
The woman sued the police dept for trauma as his brains were splattered all over her and she could not sleep at night [ her atty represented the brains on her were more traumatic than being held with a gun to her head ]. They insisted that the PD could have talked him out of this situation without firing.
You intercede, you take your chances, even in uniform.
Brownie
Good analogy.
Here's one for everyone on the same lines. Cops have a woman being held hostage by a gunman. They set up with a tac team, and it's a stalemate. They determine one cop will advance and get the BG to move the weapon to his presence and at that instance, the rifle will take the shot from 65 yrds out on the BG.
This goes down perfectly, and the woman is saved. No harm except to the BG who dropped like a rock and didn't make it.
The woman sued the police dept for trauma as his brains were splattered all over her and she could not sleep at night [ her atty represented the brains on her were more traumatic than being held with a gun to her head ]. They insisted that the PD could have talked him out of this situation without firing.
You intercede, you take your chances, even in uniform.
Brownie
brownie0486
Member
I believe I asked you to provide the states statutes where this "failure to render aid when deadly force is justifiable is a criminal act"
You have not done so, but you have now reiterated your statements that this is true. Please provide the statute, specifically, that states I have to render aid to anyone when deadly force is justifiable or suffer potential criminal charges anywhere in the US as a ccw card holder.
Until you do, we only have your word and have to take this on "good faith". I suggest you prove your statements, or the good faith seems to be diminished when you fail to meet the requests for documentation of same.
"You will be held accoutnable for you lack of regard for human life by your peers in a court of law and at very least lose your permit to carry. At worst you will be tried for manslaughter."
Really?, can you cite any precedent for this statement anywhere in the US? I'm not so sure you have your facts straight on this one. Before anyone takes your statements on good faith and acts on it somewhere, lets see the statute if you would, otherwise, it's something I'm discounting as heresay at best.
Brownie
You have not done so, but you have now reiterated your statements that this is true. Please provide the statute, specifically, that states I have to render aid to anyone when deadly force is justifiable or suffer potential criminal charges anywhere in the US as a ccw card holder.
Until you do, we only have your word and have to take this on "good faith". I suggest you prove your statements, or the good faith seems to be diminished when you fail to meet the requests for documentation of same.
"You will be held accoutnable for you lack of regard for human life by your peers in a court of law and at very least lose your permit to carry. At worst you will be tried for manslaughter."
Really?, can you cite any precedent for this statement anywhere in the US? I'm not so sure you have your facts straight on this one. Before anyone takes your statements on good faith and acts on it somewhere, lets see the statute if you would, otherwise, it's something I'm discounting as heresay at best.
Brownie
brownie0486
Member
RKBAman:
Your sig line contains this:
A primer on conceal handgun carry
http://sheepdog.blog-city.com/a_primer_to_chlccw.htm
I checked that site and find nowhere even the hint that what you are suggesting is even close to what they are saying. In fact, they make the point very clear that you, as a ccw card carrier should consider:
"A CHL does not make you a cop nor does it allow you to enforce laws. You may protect yourself, your family, your personal property and so forth but in the end you must answer for the decisions you make, so keep this in mind."
and this:
You will have legal right to carry a weapon, not to shoot someone with it. Keep that in mind because if you shoot someone your going to go to jail. Read it again and let that sink in a minute. If you shoot someone, no matter what there’s about a 99% chance your going to be arrested and go to jail. Maybe only for a night but your going to be jailed while they piece together what happened. No matter what you may have heard you do no have any right to kill a person. You maybe have legal grounds to use deadly force but this is not the same thing.
I presently have a call into the Atty Generals Office, specifically the firearms licensing bureau attys who will be getting back to me shortly on this very subject of being criminally negligent if I do not render my firearm and aid of another citizen of the state in any circumstances.
Where Az is concerned, we'll have an answer here pretty shortly as to whether your statements are correct or not. I'm no longer predisposed to wait for you to provide any documentation to support your statements made on this issue.
I find this statement of yours interesting as well:
I can tell you as a paramedic that this is, in the eyes of law, no different then a medical professional failing to render aid.
Being a paramedic does not covey any professional knowledge to the proposition you have made here where rendered aid, or more specifically, lack therof to another has criminality attached to it as a ccw card member.
I'll get back to everyone on the legal position of the state of Arizona here shortly, as soon as they call back.
Brownie
Your sig line contains this:
A primer on conceal handgun carry
http://sheepdog.blog-city.com/a_primer_to_chlccw.htm
I checked that site and find nowhere even the hint that what you are suggesting is even close to what they are saying. In fact, they make the point very clear that you, as a ccw card carrier should consider:
"A CHL does not make you a cop nor does it allow you to enforce laws. You may protect yourself, your family, your personal property and so forth but in the end you must answer for the decisions you make, so keep this in mind."
and this:
You will have legal right to carry a weapon, not to shoot someone with it. Keep that in mind because if you shoot someone your going to go to jail. Read it again and let that sink in a minute. If you shoot someone, no matter what there’s about a 99% chance your going to be arrested and go to jail. Maybe only for a night but your going to be jailed while they piece together what happened. No matter what you may have heard you do no have any right to kill a person. You maybe have legal grounds to use deadly force but this is not the same thing.
I presently have a call into the Atty Generals Office, specifically the firearms licensing bureau attys who will be getting back to me shortly on this very subject of being criminally negligent if I do not render my firearm and aid of another citizen of the state in any circumstances.
Where Az is concerned, we'll have an answer here pretty shortly as to whether your statements are correct or not. I'm no longer predisposed to wait for you to provide any documentation to support your statements made on this issue.
I find this statement of yours interesting as well:
I can tell you as a paramedic that this is, in the eyes of law, no different then a medical professional failing to render aid.
Being a paramedic does not covey any professional knowledge to the proposition you have made here where rendered aid, or more specifically, lack therof to another has criminality attached to it as a ccw card member.
I'll get back to everyone on the legal position of the state of Arizona here shortly, as soon as they call back.
Brownie
engineer151515
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