Wow....a view on gun control being an "issue".

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Outlaws

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I found this here while doing a google news search for gun control.

I like the very last line. :fire:
Some people still don't get it.

On Thursday, November 2, the American Constitution Society hosted a debate between Professor Mark Tushnet and historian Saul Cornell over the challenges and possibilities for progressive gun control policy.

Tushnet joined the Harvard Law School faculty this year as William Nelson Cromwell Professor of Law after spending twenty-five years teaching at the Georgetown University Law Center. Cornell, an Associate Professor of History at Ohio State University and Director of the Second Amendment Research Center at the John Glenn Institute, recently published a book on the history of gun control entitled A Well-Regulated Militia: The Founding Fathers and the Origins of Gun Control in America.

Cornell began by describing the high cost - in both dollars and lives - of gun violence in America, noting that approximately 30,000 Americans die each year as a result of gun violence and that direct medical costs alone constitute several billion dollars of spending per year. At the same time, he acknowledged that a platform based on eradicating guns entirely would be an unrealistic way to address the problem. According to Cornell, 35% to 40% of households in this country own at least one gun and gun ownership is too historically embedded in our society to make a confiscation plan realistically viable.

At the same time, Cornell expressed his belief that progressives have been ignoring the gun control issue for too long and that they need to find a way to develop and express a position on the issue that demonstrates a middle ground.

"There is a way of making gun control an issue that is not poison to the left," Cornell stated. "You can be for gun regulation without actually wanting to take everyone's guns away."

Tushnet, on the other hand, showed less optimism about the possibility of making progress on the gun control issue and expressed concern that "making a big deal about it" would be a fruitless use of time and energy.

"Given the prevalence of guns in society, and the cultural resonance that gun ownership has in substantial segments of society, there is no politically achievable gun policy that is going to have any significant effect one way or the other on gun violence, which means it's just wasted effort."

Both scholars agreed that the actual impact of any realistically achievable gun control policy would not have the sweeping effect on reducing gun violence that most would be hoping for. However, while Tushnet saw this as one reason to not waste effort on the issue, Cornell maintained that reframing expectations about the impact of gun control policy could be part of developing a credible, progressive argument in favor of regulations.

In addressing the question of whether it is possible for progressives to develop credibility on the gun control issue and how the culture wars might be influencing the debate, Tushnet advanced the theory that forms the thesis of his upcoming book on the topic.

"The gun control issue is as difficult as it is because it has become a location for the culture war battles," Tushnet said. "We need a politician who can detach issues from the larger culture war issues, like [Bill] Clinton did with welfare reform…but gun control might not be the most important [issue] to detach right now."

While Tushnet remained unconvinced about whether putting together a viable, credible progressive stance on gun control was worth the time and effort, Cornell held fast to his view that the left should not stay silent on the issue.

"We can't say nothing, and we can't say, 'Yeah, we love the 2nd Amendment,'" said Cornell. "But we have to come up with something to say about it...we need to defend the vision of a well-regulated society, with checks and balances, and show people that government is not inherently evil."
 
I like the very last line.
Some people still don't get it.

Some people DO get it. They want to ban or control gun ownership so they can rule or develope the perfect society (according to them).

-Bill
 
I'm not sure I would classify government as evil. Surely it is distasteful but evil has a moral connotation to it and government is not an entity that can be classified as moral. The people running the government can be evil or immoral but a construct can't be evil. That is like calling an AR-15 evil, it is only a tool and can't do anything without an operator. Government is the same way, it can be good or bad (in how it affects your situation) but it is the operator that makes it so. Government is one of the few ways to ensure your rights are maintained, we would call that good government, but then again it is also one of the ways that your rights are abridged. Either way, people are responsible for it.
 
Its been my experience in life that big things tend to harm little things. Sometimes intentionally, sometimes by accident, but thats just how it is.
Big trucks hit little pedestrians, big boats squish little sailors, big animals stomp little farmers, big waves drown little swimmers.

Big governments crush little citizens.

That being the case I no longer look at large organizations that control even larger nations as friendly or cuddly, these things are not and will never be your friend.
They have a penchant for hurting individuals. Sometimes maliciously, sometimes because those driving it from up high just cant see the little ants their walking on.
The reason the constitution exists is to make sure the big things don't step on little things and get away with it.

Government is not good or bad, but it is always dangerous.
 
Government IS inherently evil. That's why we had to invent a whole special vocabulary to describe the things government does, in order to put the evil out of focus, and help us endure it.

Conscription instead of slavery.

Taxation instead of theft.

Imprisonment instead of kidnapping.

The problem is that government is, often, a necessary evil, the only way to avert worse evils. (Most of which are, in the area of national defense, also governments, of course.)

The really big problem, is that a lot of people just can't endure the notion that they're part of an evil, even if it is necessary, and evolve all sorts of rationalizations as to why the things government does aren't really evil.

Which leads, of course, to doing evil when it's not necessary. Which is where we are now.
 
Maybe it's the line of work I've been in for 30+ years, but every single time I hear the word progressive I think of progressive illness - something that's already horrible and just keeps getting worse and worse and worse.

John
 
Progressive is a term that has been in use in the political sense for a long time. It's just another label, like conservative, liberal, right wing, etc. It has no hard and fast definition. However, if you listen to political discourse long enough, you get the idea that those that describe themselves as progressive are considerably more hardcore than garden variety liberals. Progressives are much more comfortable using the power of government to engineer a society to conform to their vision of social and economic justice. They are probably just a step or two short of revolutionary, but aim for pretty much the same goals.

I'm not sure I consider government inherently evil.People can be evil. I would say government is inherently dangerous to liberty. When doing it's proper role, government enforces the rights of citizens. E.g., punishes crimes against persons and property and, of course, provides for national defense. Given a constitutional government that recognizes individual rights, government is a useful tool for rational society. However, freedom loving people must constantly be on guard to prevent government from being used by those who are less sympathetic to liberty.

K
 
we need to defend the vision of a well-regulated society

He's twisting the Second Amendment for his own ends. To the leftists, the point of the Second Amendment is regulation of guns, not gun rights. To them, government is not about protecting rights, it's about control. That's the bottom line for them. You will fall in line with their idea of good and evil. You will do what the government says is good for you. You will not resist.
 
I believe Saul Cornell has indeed been outed as an unmitigated fraud, little more than, as the Geek put it, a shill for the viciously antigun Joyce Foundation, which if I remember correctly also funded his "Second Amendment Research Center." (Would that the mainstream media jumped on this as well...) It's just too bad more of the American people don't dig deeper than what the MSM presents to them and find out the real truth for themselves.
 
re:

Go back and read the last part again where it mentions "Regulated Society."
There's the key phrase that we need to be watchful of. It ain't about gun control, and never has been. It's about people control, and that pesky Second Amendment keeps gettin' in the way...
 
Until you change the owner and mind set of the finger that pulled the trigger you will not succeed in stopping violence. A major contributing factor to violence is "AGE" Young people are more prone to violence then others simply because they have yet to find their place in society and how to live in that society. Increased age is more often the cure.
 
Deavis hit the nail upon the head. Government is like a firearm; a tool. The evil that results from government or guns is a result of the actions of the wielder of the tool, not the tool itself.

The Constitution is a critical body of work which outlines the framework of and the constraints placed on government. It is men who twist and turn that document in order to subject other men. The separation of powers that constrain the 3 branches of government is also supposed to hinder those who become too progressive. I also support JohnBT's comment about how the word progressive conjures up a vision of illness. The far left and the far right are both dangerous. Without the constraint placed on them by the Constitution, BoR, and the separation of powers, tyranny wins the day. The critical element though, is still the average Joe who has to be involved and connected to the process. At the time the Constitution was completed one of the founders was asked by the wife of one of his peers is they had given us a democracy. His reply, which should be emblazoned on the doorways of ever public building in our country, especially schools was; "No madam, we gave you a republic if you can keep it." Remember, good government is government that governs least.

When the courts become too activist, the congress should constrain them with new laws and presidents with worthy appointments. The same notion follows through on all three.
 
I have to laugh at the transparency of these career gun-grabbers. Tushnet just got his chair at Harvard and is ready to relax and be pragmatic. Cornell has to demonstrate his activism to keep his foundation funding, so he is intractable.
 
I truly hate the MSM. Cornell was on NPR selling his crap and his book. Never was it even hinted that his views might just be a little lefty and biased. He sounded so cool and smug with his crap and of coarse the host asked not questions that would uncover his idea of social enginerring behind his propaganda. He is a fraud and he is dangerous. Well regulated society according to Cornell and his commie buddies. :fire:
 
Two leftist gun grabbers arguing over methodology, as in, "We both agree guns should be baned, confiscated, removed. How're we gonna do it."
 
"He is a fraud and he is dangerous."

No doubt, but are there any reviews by real 2A researchers on his book? I have not seen any myself.
 
"Given the prevalence of guns in society, and the cultural resonance that gun ownership has in substantial segments of society, there is no politically achievable gun policy that is going to have any significant effect one way or the other on gun violence, which means it's just wasted effort."

Very important point here.
 
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