WST

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OK, found it in Hornady #4 and to not hijack this thread for 45ACP and WST, I started a new thread for 9mm here - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/wst-winchester-super-target-load-data-for-9mm.870180/
LiveLife, Thank you very much.

I initially wondered why it has been almost 20 years since Hornady published load data for WST and 9mm, removed it, and never went back to it. I was looking the Brian Enos website and it seemed like there were still folks using it for match competitions with positive results. They did list loaddata, but I was kind of hesitant because I hadn't run into anything published. Only "that Hogdon had removed 9mm and WST information because of issues with max loads." Page 547 shows 9mm 124 grain load data which is what I'm interested in as well as 147 information.

Have you shot any 9mm reloads using WST? What was your experience, and if so, do you still use WST and 9mm. I read the post and noticed that you increased your OAL. Did you try reducing the charge so as not to have to increase the OAL or compress the charge? If so what was the charge weight?

I know WST seems more "fluffy" over CFE and TG, but I didn't think it would fill the case. Maybe that's why Hogdon moved away from using it in 9mm. There are more variables involved creating more room for error.

Thanks again, especially for the pdf file. That is another reference I'll keep and a reference that will undoubtedly get more difficult to find.

CH
 
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Too bad we cannot contact Hogdon and find out why the limits for WST and 45acp were set at 4.3 for LRN and at 4.9 for jacketed.

You could try sending them an email and see what they say.
Best case you get an answer, worst case you wasted time emailing them.
So something worthwhile on the up side not much on the down side.
 
Crazy Horse,

WST is all I've used for my last 10K or so 9mm loads. I've went through several pounds of it.

4 gr under a 125 gr cast lead round nose flat point.
4 gr under a 125 gr cast lead hollow point.
4 gr under a 128 gr cast lead round nose.

There is data for the 147 and WST to be found on the Brian Enos forum.
 
Have you shot any 9mm reloads using WST? What was your experience, and if so, do you still use WST and 9mm. I read the post and noticed that you increased your OAL. Did you try reducing the charge so as not to have to increase the OAL or compress the charge? If so what was the charge weight?
While some members posted that my testing with WST was perhaps too conservative, but my concerns were possible powder compression and the reality of bullet setback most reloaders experience. I believe after some discussion with moderator 9mmepiphany (Who BTW holds CA state IDPA championship title), we entertained the prospect of going up to 4.3 gr with 1.150" OAL to be practical max charge.

But without published load data and the fact that barrels' groove diameter varies with increasing trend for shorter leade length, I decided to fault on "High Road" notion for bulk of reloaders with my testing of smaller groove diameter (.355"-.356") barrels with larger .356" sized bullets of using 4.0 gr of WST that would provide some sense of pressure buffer from using shorter OAL/bullet setback.

But when the WST and 9mm issue resurfaced on Brian Enos forum after having read CocoBolo's post of his "practical" max charge of 4.6 gr with Zero 125 gr FMJ loaded to 1.145" (BTW, Zero 115 gr FMJ I have are sized larger at .356"), I wanted to illustrate how this was arrived by using case fill calculation. And coincidentally, using RMR 124 gr FMJ at 1.135", the typical OAL that I load 124 gr FMJ/RN to, 4.6 gr of WST was the "realistic" max charge that would not compress the powder charge.

BUT BUT BUT ... there's a difference between "realistic" vs "practical" max charge as we all know that finished rounds can and often do experience bullet setback when fed/chambered from the magazine.

So I would consider 4.6 gr of WST for RMR 124 gr FMJ loaded to 1.135" ONLY IF your finished rounds absolutely do not experience any bullet setback. If you do experience bullet setback, I would recommend:
  • Addressing the bullet setback issue to eliminate it
  • Using reduced powder charge to compensate (Perhaps 4.3 gr?)
  • Trying longer 1.150" OAL to see if post bullet setback OAL is longer than 1.135"
Personally, since I use mixed range brass with unknown reload history and condition of brass (Not like brand new brass Hornady used for their testing), I would consider 4.6 gr to be the "practical" max charge if my brass and bullet combo did not produce bullet setback at 1.135". If you want a degree of "comfort", you could load longer at 1.145" or 1.150" and see what the accuracy is like.

And for my USPSA match loads, since I did not need bullseye match level of accuracy, I continued my 9mm testing with Clays, Bullseye, Titegroup, W231/HP-38, Universal, WSF, HS-6 using available published load data and decided on W231/HP-38 and WSF.

In recent years, I tested Red Dot/Promo, IMR Red, IMR Target, Vectan Ba9.5, N320, Sport Pistol, Green Dot, Unique, Power Pistol, BE-86, AutoComp, CFE Pistol, Herco, etc. and found Target, Sport Pistol and BE-86 to be accuracy contenders with reblended Promo to produce very acceptable level of accuracy for general purpose range blasting ammo (particularly for carbine loads) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ectan-ba-9-5-ba-9.817796/page-2#post-10511758

But for me, WST remains one of more accurate powders for 9mm and now with Hornady #4 "published" 9mm load data for WST, we have a viable powder solution for utmost accuracy loads instead of wringing of hands and shuffling of feet.
 
Crazy Horse,

WST is all I've used for my last 10K or so 9mm loads. I've went through several pounds of it.

4 gr under a 125 gr cast lead round nose flat point.
4 gr under a 125 gr cast lead hollow point.
4 gr under a 128 gr cast lead round nose.

There is data for the 147 and WST to be found on the Brian Enos forum.

THX. Page 548 has load data for the 147 grain bullet. I did notice some comments stating 4.1 for 124gr bullets.

A couple of questions, as was mentioned by LiveLife, if you use 4.8 gr you have to use a longer OAL. Before giving it a try, does 4 gr leave room in the case to allow for standard OAL seating of 1.150 (RN) or 1.90 (LRN)? Did you chrono the bullets using 4gr of WST? How was perceived recoil?

The off thing I noticed on the Hornady 4ed is that it keeps the LRN, RN, and FP in the same charts utilizing the same load weights. Typically Lead data is listed separately with lower loads.

TIA

CH
 
The off thing I noticed on the Hornady 4ed is that it keeps the LRN, RN, and FP in the same charts utilizing the same load weights. Typically Lead data is listed separately with lower loads.
Note the different OAL used for different bullet types.

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Note the different OAL used for different bullet types.

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The COAL does vary as I noted in my response to Texas10mm, typically load weights (min-max) will vary as well between lead data and jacketed data. I guess I'm just used to seeing Lead data in a totally separate table. Of course I haven't been reloading as long, so this was the first time have seen a Hornady manual older than the 9th edition. THX.
 
I don't have a chrono.

Recoil is very pleasant.

There's plenty of room to see the bullet to the required depth.

I mainly use the MP 125 gr RNFP seated to the line on the bullet. I've never actually measured the length of them to tell ya the truth.
 
The COAL does vary as I noted in my response to Texas10mm, typically load weights (min-max) will vary as well between lead data and jacketed data. I guess I'm just used to seeing Lead data in a totally separate table.
It's more typical to see separate lead load data if they are sized larger at .356".

I believe Hornady consolidated both lead and jacketed load data in the same table because they were sized the same at .355".
  • Bullet diameter - .355"
 
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I don't have a chrono.

Recoil is very pleasant.

There's plenty of room to see the bullet to the required depth.

I mainly use the MP 125 gr RNFP seated to the line on the bullet. I've never actually measured the length of them to tell ya the truth.

Texas10,

I can imagine on how recoil felt as recoil felt way to comfortable on the 45acp loads. I had to do a quick look a to verify it was a 45 I was shooting. But at 4.0gr, velocity was estimated at 750. I typically like ~800fps when shooting 45, but recoil was so light. If my daughter's ever want to try a 45, I'll put together some rounds using WST, that way it won't intimidate them.

THX. You've given me a path for my next venture. :)

I have about 400 125gr bullets from Brazos precision. What I don't like about them is that they only function correctly on only a few of my 9mm's...... It looks like the OGIVE is too wide. But since they are 125gr I'll plan on using them for a test on 9mm and WST.

CH
 
I measured OAL today. 1.055 on the MP bullets I cast.

Shooting this WST load out of my Remington R1 Limited double stack is hilarious. You would almost think I have a 22 LR conversion kit on it. There's a bit more muzzle flip and recoil with my Caniks. My S&W 5906 is pretty close to the Remington. In my Ruger carbine the muzzle moves about 2" at 25 yards. Double taps are VERY quick. I've got a Volquartzen trigger pack in the Ruger and the reset is super short.
 
Range report,

So, now I see why so many folks like WST even if it isn't as versatile in terms of how many calibers it can be used on. After reading what LiveLife posted on his preference of 4.5 on 45 acp cast boolits, I loaded loads at 4.4gr and 4.5gr of WST to test. I Tried 4.4 first on my S&W 45 acp, then on my Shield45. I liked how it felt much more than 4.0. I then shot the 4.5gr loads, a tad more recoil, but not much. My shot groups for 4.4 were much better than 4.5 grains. What impressed me most as a reloader is how CLEAN the cases were once fired. I have been reloading over 2 years now and always accept some soot. But using WST they stayed clean with NO soot on the case. Naturally, the longer 45 acp is more accurate, so I took a pic of my shot group using 4.4gr in the Shield45 at 7 yards. I thought I placed and excellent group. Previously, my favorite load that works on all my 45's was CFE Pistol. Now I'm definitely gonna continue using WST for 45acp.

20200619_163506.jpg

Next I'll look at how it performs in 9mm.

In conclusion, while not as versatile, I can definitely see why so many match shooters use WST on their reloads.
 
LiveLife,

What's the shortest OAL you've used on 9mm 125gr and WST? I was using 1.135, but that is not cycling on my S&W Compact. That OAL cycles well in my Shield 9mm, but I'm looking to use this load in several 9mm's. With ACME 124gr I typically use 1.130 which works well. The 125gr bullet from ACME seems to have a slightly wider OGIVE than the 124gr ACME bullet, so I'm thinking I'll have to shorten the OAL. .

With no load data, SAAMI indicates the shortest OAL is 1.000, but I thought I'd ask someone with experience with 9mm and WST. I'm looking to go with 1.130 then plunk test, but would like some additional room to go down to 1.125 if necessary to account for the slightly bigger OGIVE (to ensure no cycle issues with any of my 9mm's).

Normally I would just go with 124gr bullets as they cycle well, but with shortage problems they're out of 124gr, but have plenty of 125gr bullets in their site.

TIA

CH
 
Use the shortest OAL that will work in all the pistols for the particular bullet.

As to powder work up, first work up to charge that will reliably cycle the slide and extract/ejected spent brass then work up towards charge that won't compress powder.

If you let me know your shortest working OAL and length of bullet, I can help you with max case powder fill calculations.
 
As to powder work up, first work up to charge that will reliably cycle the slide and extract/ejected spent brass then work up towards charge that won't compress powder.

Please explain the concern with compressed powder. With no context there is no reason why it matters.
 
It's my personal preference to not compress pistol powder charge and recommendation I am making to OP.

If you want to compress your 9mm powder charge, that's your choice
 
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It's my personal preference and recommendation I am making to OP.

If you want to compress your 9mm powder charge, that's your choice.

That does not answer the question of why the concern of compressed powder.
 
Livelife. I started with 4.0 and it cycled well in all my firearms using 124gr ACME coated LRN bullets. I settled on 4.2gr of WST as it worked the best in the 9mm's I tested (went up to 4.5gr of WST and the rounds started going high). Because ACME was out of 124gr 9mm bullets, I ordered ACME 125gr coated bullets. The OGIVE is a little wider, but I kept the OAL of 1.135 and 4.2gr of WST. I just wanted to ask the question on what is the shortest OAL you have loaded when using WST for 9mm to gauge what someone who's used WST before going to a shorter OAL

I don't foresee any problems with going down to 1.130, but going down to 1.125 would ensure it works on all my 9mm's. All this is to try to keep from getting into the "Spikey" territory as the reason mentioned for taking 9mm out of the WST table.

I was kind of surprised that the 125gr and WST with an OAL of 1.135 cycled perfectly in my SHield 9mm, but jammed in the S&W 9mm compact. I would have expected the Shield to require a shorter OAL, but that is not the case.

That being said, I now know that in my inventory, the 9mm's that require the shortest OAL are the S&W 9mm compact and the Taurus G3.


TIA

CH
 
That does not answer the question of why the concern of compressed powder
Not to speak for Livelife, but WST is reverse temp sensitive and if you load max , compressed loads and shoot them after the temp goes down you may/will be over pressure for the load and it spikes.
Not worth taking a chance on. At least for me.
 
Not to speak for Livelife, but WST is reverse temp sensitive and if you load max , compressed loads and shoot them after the temp goes down you may/will be over pressure for the load and it spikes.
Not worth taking a chance on. At least for me.

Does that mean that the pressure won't spike after the temp goes down if you're at max load but the powder is not compressed? Would love to see data for the difference in pressure. Got data?

Livelife can speak for himself, I'm sure.
 
No, it doesn't, but I'm not compressing it because of all the other posts on different forum about it.
From what I've read it doesn't play fair when compressed.
I don't have data, I just know to stay away from max loads with it, which are up where compression starts because it is a bulky powder. I'm working up data with .327 Federal Magnum right now with WST for reduced loads with lead bullets, that's a place I don't think anyone has gone yet. But I'm going to keep a EDIT: (compression space) AIR Space in there with it.
I just won't use it with max loads in calibers like 9mm that are already known to to be very confined.
 
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