WST

[Crazy Horse]

LiveLife,

So what's the shortest OAL you've used when using WST for 9mm?

 

[LiveLife]

So what's the shortest OAL you've used when using WST for 9mm?

1.150" but as max case fill calculation I have done for 1.135", 4.6 gr won't be a compressed charge.

If you need to use shorter OAL, having the bullet length will allow us to calculate the max case fill for that OAL/bullet length with WST.

 

[1KPerDay]

Use the shortest OAL that will work in all the pistols for the particular bullet.

Did you mean the LONGEST that will work in all pistols?

 

[fxvr5]

The question of whether compressed loads are bad comes up on this forum from time to time. Some folks claim it's bad, but have no evidence to support their claim. Some, when requested, can't, or won't, tell you why they don't recommend compressed loads.

Here's an axiom that applies to these situations; claims made without evidence are as easily dismissed. A person who makes a claim has the burden of proof for its truthfulness. If they can't provide any evidence that it's true, there is no reason to believe it. Some of you will recognize this as Hitchen's razor. This is similar to Carl Sagan's well-known phrase, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

It's probably fair to say that there are few recognized reloading experts on this forum. Some of the things suggested on this forum (and other forums, too) are due to people's opinions, hunches, fears, quirks, or gawd knows what. That's why asking for evidence to support what they say is important. If it's true, there will be evidence to support it. And it's not impossible to ask people to do their own Google search for the facts. Many people can answer their own questions that way. Honestly, and with all due respect to The High Road, a forum is not best resource for facts. That's because any yahoo can post whatever they are thinking at the time. This is bad because, well, see paragraph #2.

Always read people's posts with a skeptical eye. When in doubt, ask the experts. Who are the experts? Powder manufacturers/sellers. Bullet manufacturers. They all have some way to contact them, either by phone or email, and I've found them happy to reply to questions. And many questions we have are answered in their loading manuals or posted on their websites under FAQs or technical articles.

What do the experts say about compressed loads? Are they evil as we would be led to believe from this thread? Hodgdon has a web page on compressed loads. I think it's fair to say that they are experts since they sell Winchester, IMR and Hodgdon brand powders and provide us handloaders with tons of valuable data (thank you Hodgdon!). They've been in the powder business a while, so I suspect they know a thing or two about gunpowder and handloading.

Here's what Hodgdon has to say about compressed loads:

"Normally a pistol or rifle shellcase is considered full, or 100% loading density, when the powder charge sits at the base of the bullet when the bullet is fully seated. It is possible with some powders and cartridges to increase the powder charge slightly above this point, such that when the bullet is seated it actually compresses the powder charge slightly. This condition is known as a compressed load.

Hodgdon notes in its reloading data if the subject charge is a compressed load. A full case, or lightly compressed charge is an ideal condition for creating loads with the most uniform velocities and pressures, and oftentimes, producing top accuracy." (emphasis added)

Don't take my word for it. Here's their link.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/reloading-beginners/compressed-loads

People are free to disagree with Hodgdon, but they should not be shocked if someone asks them for evidence.

I would like to think that this will bring an end to all this *&@# about compressed loads, but given human nature, it probably won't, so bookmark Hodgdon's web page!

 

[forrest r]

Hodgdon is spot on with compressed loads using wst in the 9mm. Been doing so for decades and have had excellent accuracy with several different bullets. Right now the latest/greatest bullet I'm using is nothing more than a sd hp bullet that can hold 10-shot groups @ 50ft that can be covered with a quarter.

Myself, I prefer compressed loads or loads near max case capacity. While I do use bullseye or aa#2 for general range use. Powders like wst, american select, clay's & trail boss are what I grab for target loads. Loads that are compressed take any of the position sensitivity of a powder out of play. It also makes for a more consistent burn dampening inconsistent fp hits and differences in the cases crimp pressure and neck tension.

Most reloaders don't think about the short start pressure of pistol and revolver reloads. At the end of the day that's where the games won or lost when it comes to accuracy.

Just another opinion .

 

[LiveLife]

Honestly, and with all due respect to The High Road, a forum is not best resource for facts. That's because any yahoo can post whatever they are thinking at the time.

I absolutely agree, especially depending on which member is posting. Besides, THR is like any other online forum and fully states that in the disclaimers on bottom of every page:

"IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER - Although The High Road has attempted to provide accurate information on the forum, The High Road assumes no responsibility for the accuracy of the information. All information is provided "as is" with all faults without warranty of any kind, either express or implied. Neither The High Road nor any of its directors, members, managers, employees, agents, vendors, or suppliers will be liable for any direct, indirect, general, bodily injury, compensatory, special, punitive, consequential, or incidental damages including, without limitation, lost profits or revenues, costs of replacement goods, loss or damage to data arising out of the use or inability to use this forum or any services associated with this forum, or damages from the use of or reliance on the information present on this forum, even if you have been advised of the possibility of such damages."
​

So when there is no "factual" load data available from the powder manufacturer or currently published load data from other reloading manuals, "some of us" will post with disclaimers to lean on the side of caution/safety. Sure we are not scientists with test labs or pressure testing equipment at our disposal so many of us post our best "guess" based on our personal reloading experience and information available to us.

It may be the case that actual laboratory/pressure testing may show different from our posts/recommendations but we are not scientists, just fellow reloaders trying to help other members with their load development.

Of course, since most of us use mixed range brass, we need to take that into account as use of mixed range brass with unknown reload history and condition of brass could produce different results compared to pressure testing done with brand new brass which is more malleable. And work hardened brass is less malleable and has the potential for case wall failure/rupture especially if the brass was overly expanded for 9mm Major loads and left on the ground for unsuspecting reloaders to pick up to reuse.

Alliant does not publish pistol load data for Promo yet I have posted with disclaimers my personal load development (Using Red Dot load data) and range test information including chrono data for 9mm/40S&W/45ACP over the years while recommending Promo (which tends to be reverse temperature sensitive) for 9mm/45ACP (particularly for carbine loads) but not really for 40S&W - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...endence-from-work.853305/page-4#post-11387109

This was done for those members who may want to try Promo without published load data from Alliant, noting my experience with several 8 lb containers of Promo and specifically improved metering of "reblended" Promo with detailed pictures showing difference in flake shape and consistency - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...blended-promo-for-more-accurate-loads.841097/

Hodgdon has a web page on compressed loads. I think it's fair to say that they are experts since they sell Winchester, IMR and Hodgdon brand powders and provide us handloaders with tons of valuable data. They've been in the powder business a while, so I suspect they know a thing or two about gunpowder and handloading.

Hodgdon is spot on with compressed loads using wst in the 9mm.

So why won't Hodgdon publish compressed load data or any load data for WST and 9mm?

And why won't any other reloading manuals currently not show any load data for WST and 9mm?

When in doubt, ask the experts. Who are the experts? Powder manufacturers

... They all have some way to contact them, either by phone or email, and I've found them happy to reply to questions.

If the manufacturer of powder has no data for WST and 9mm, there is a message there.

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/...luger-cartridge/?tab=comments#comment-1801545

"The response from Winchester/Hodgdon was dropped into my Inbox bright and early this morning. Unfortunately, it is a restricted email so I cannot slap it in here in full.

But, I can summarize/paraphrase it:

1. Yes, we do not publish data for WST to be used for 9mm Luger. We also do not publish data for many other powder for the 9mm.
2. Since there are many unsuitable powders for the 9mm Luger, it is impossible for us to publish reasons for their exclusion.
3. A thinking person who is doing reloading should know that it is not wise to use a powder for a cartridge when the powder is excluded from the list for that cartridge.

And, this response came from manager for their CS dept."​

 

[Crazy Horse]

1.150" but as max case fill calculation I have done for 1.135", 4.6 gr won't be a compressed charge.

If you need to use shorter OAL, having the bullet length will allow us to calculate the max case fill for that OAL/bullet length with WST.

LiveLife,

As far as powder charge, I'll be loading to 4.2gr of WST. The bullet length is .5890.


Thank you for calculating the OAL. I'm looking at seating the bullet to 1.125-1.130 (.005-.010 from 1.135 with 4.2 grains of WST),

 

[LiveLife]

As far as powder charge, I'll be loading to 4.2gr of WST.

The bullet length is .5890 ... OAL I'm looking at seating the bullet to 1.125-1.130

So to determine bottom of bullet after being seated, subtract the bullet length from the OAL:

1.125" - 0.589" = 0.539"
​

Subtracting this number from average resized case length will give you (Some resized WIN brass measures 0.747"):

0.747" - 0.539" = 0.208"
​

So measure 0.208" down from case mouth with the end of your caliper and mark inside the case. Fill the case with WST to this mark and weigh powder charge. This is max case fill before bottom of bullet starts compressing the powder charge.

I am visiting my parents out of state and will be back home tonight to do the weighing of powder charge if you don't get to do so.

 

[Crazy Horse]

So to determine bottom of bullet after being seated, subtract the bullet length from the OAL:

1.125" - 0.589" = 0.539"
​

Subtracting this number from average resized case length will give you (Some resized WIN brass measures 0.747"):

0.747" - 0.539" = 0.208"
​

So measure 0.208" down from case mouth with the end of your caliper and mark inside the case. Fill the case with WST to this mark weigh. This is max case fill before bottom of bullet starts compressing the powder charge.

I am visiting my parents out of state and will be back home tonight to do the weighing of powder charge if you don't get to do so.

No worries, Thank

You for the instructions.

I'll look at the case and do the calculations when I get off work today. It's Monday and a short week so chaos will be the theme of the day at work.

CH

 

[Walkalong]

Y’all be careful out there when loading off the grid.