Ye old "Federal Brass is SOFT" question

[forestswin]

Rule
Don't have any facts for you.....but here are some thoughts.

When cases are re-sized, I don't believe any work happens to the case head or primer pocket.
The brass will undergo forces during firing and will expand and contract...but there is nothing we can do to return the case head or primer pocket to "unfired" new condition. So the case is on its own as to strength from the original properties of the brass and the original thicknesses and the changes it goes through.

In other words, the case head and primer pocket is just going to keep expanding from the first firing on.
So I would think that harder and/or thicker cases at the case head would last longer.

Don't forget that case wall and Web thicknesses probably play a bigger role than softness of the brass

 

[murf]

Thanks for the link.

Well......
At least it is a attempt at using some scientific methods. But as you say "softness" vs hardness

Doesn't address the "how" long it will last or how many reloads"

Just those individual lots (2009) and that caliber.

Remington is pretty darn close to that batch of Federal so can we conclude that Remington (2009) is no good either? or is that because it is to thin?

OH well everyone know Federal Primers are great and soft and sensitive.

No ne has a Mass Spec or X ray unit here on the forum????

Need to send some to Abby Sciuto or Forensic Files

Actually the data shown doesn't reveal much. Even in the article it says:

"We do NOT have the metallurgical expertise to infer that any particular alloy shown above is “better” than another. The alloy “blend” is merely one of many variables that can have an impact on the performance and quality of the finished product. Annealing times/methods differ and some cartridge brass is extruded while other cartridge brass is made with the traditional drawing process. Readers should not presume, on reading the above chart, that they can identify the “best shooting” brass simply based on the constituent metals in the various alloys."

and:

Editor: That said, the ‘brown box’ 6mmBR Lapua brass, with 62% copper/36% zinc content, enjoys an unrivaled reputation for both accuracy and its ability to perform well after a dozen or more reloading cycles. We know 30BR shooters who have shot the same old-style Lapua brass (6mmBR parent case) more than 50 times. So maybe the “expert” view needs re-thinking.]

i'm in the middle of a load workup/case life test. i've been working up a few 45 acp +p+ loads for my glock 30. i started the test with ten new starline 45 super cases. i lost three cases on the first firing (ejected into the catclaw bushes), three cases were retired after load #23 because of mouth cracks, the remaining four cases are still going at load #28.

this brass is getting worked pretty hard. the fired diameter at the mouth is .476", sized diameter - .465", final loaded diameter - .472", and crimped to .469".

i had one glock bulge at the case base @ .490". most fired cases have base measurements between .480 and .484. i'm not sure the max pressures involved here, but i'm guessing a bit north of 22,000 psi.

fyi,

murf

p.s. primer pockets have loosened a bit (i hand seat all my primers and can feel the seating resistance), but all primers have seated and performed well.

 

[Ireload2]

There was a Handloader Magazine article in the early 1970s that pretty much proved at that time that Federal 7mm Rem. Mag brass was the hardest and toughest.

Multiple brands of brass were sectioned and tested with a Rockwell B scale penetrator. They also tested ammo for velocity developed without expanding the primer pockets.
The author was Bob Hagel.

I really get tired of undocumented claims when you can test a case for hardness in about 30 seconds.
I never believe any such comments since most commenters have no clue that real calibrated test equipment and procedures exist that will tell the truth.

I consider anyone making those claims as some what foolish. If they don't have access to hardness test equipment the only way to determine brass is soft is over pressure multiple brands to the point of expanded primer pockets and expanded case heads.

 

[someguy2800]

I'm an engineer by trade so numbers are great but I don't need a mass spectrometer or a penetrator to tell me that brass that won't hold a primer after the first firing is soft when others with the same load keep going and going. I can only tell you for certain the factory brass used in there 25-06 and 270 ammo is soft, beyond that I don't have any info to make any generalizations.

 

[Rule3]

I'm an engineer by trade so numbers are great but I don't need a mass spectrometer or a penetrator to tell me that brass that won't hold a primer after the first firing is soft when others with the same load keep going and going. I can only tell you for certain the factory brass used in there 25-06 and 270 ammo is soft, beyond that I don't have any info to make any generalizations.

That is just "weird"?? One firing and the second "reload" it will not hold a primer?? Is that first firing FACTORY?

I have Federal 556, 308 and 30-06 that have been loaded many times must have been made on a good day like some cars.

 

[Walkalong]

That is just "weird"?? One firing and the second "reload" it will not hold a primer??

Depends on the pressure.

 

[someguy2800]

That is just "weird"?? One firing and the second "reload" it will not hold a primer?? Is that first firing FACTORY?

I have Federal 556, 308 and 30-06 that have been loaded many times must have been made on a good day like some cars.

My father in law, brother in law, and wife's uncle all shoot the same federal factory powershock 270 loads in 5 different rifles. They are not reloaders but they have been saving the brass for 20 years. They gave me a shopping bag of about 300 cases to reload, and recently gave me another 250 or so they had previously lost. About 20% of them would not hold a primer to my satisfaction on the first loading, so it was brass from factory ammo shot 1 time. I have not shot and reloaded enough of them yet to determine how many reloads the rest of them are good for. My handloads are a grain under max and the primers are round on the fired cases.

My 25-06 federal cases were factory Federal fusion ammo bought new and shot in my rifle before I started handloading. I think I had about 120 of them. I don't recall any of them being loose on the first reloading but I threw away a few on the 2nd reloading. Now they are all on the 3rd reloading and about half of them were too loose to use. I was able to sort 50 of them that had decent resistance when priming them so they went in the hunting ammo box. I think I got another 30 or so that had very low tension but at least enough that they would not fall out on there own. I put those in the practice box. The rest the primers could be pushed in with your thumb and would fall out if tapped on the table or pushed on them with finger pressure on a pin through the flash hole so they went in the trash. I have 300 or so winchester cases that have all been loaded 5 or 6 times and I don't think I've thrown a single one away due to loose primers.

As I said earlier I used to have a bunch of prepped and sorted lake city 556 for my varmint gun and I probably loaded most of them about 10 times and never had an issue with them. I don't have federal brass for any of my other rifles so I don't have any data past those 3.

 

[Rule3]

Depends on the pressure.

May I quote you on that?

Oh wait I just did.

 

[Ireload2]

Well you just gave away part of the problem. You don't really have knowledge how hard the brass is except as a comparison. For all you know they could both be hard or both are soft. You can only compare one with another. For all you know pressures could be dangerously high in both.
Norma is known to be softer brass. It is also more ductile. The same guys that toss their brass for expanded primer pockets never shoot it enough to see what happens after 30 to 50 reloads and firings.
If you throw your chronograph in the trash your brass will last longer.

I'm an engineer by trade so numbers are great but I don't need a mass spectrometer or a penetrator to tell me that brass that won't hold a primer after the first firing is soft when others with the same load keep going and going. I can only tell you for certain the factory brass used in there 25-06 and 270 ammo is soft, beyond that I don't have any info to make any generalizations.

 

[someguy2800]

Well you just gave away part of the problem. You don't really have knowledge how hard the brass is except as a comparison. For all you know they could both be hard or both are soft. You can only compare one with another. For all you know pressures could be dangerously high in both.
Norma is known to be softer brass. It is also more ductile. The same guys that toss their brass for expanded primer pockets never shoot it enough to see what happens after 30 to 50 reloads and firings.
If you throw your chronograph in the trash your brass will last longer.

Your assumptions on my loading methods are incorrect.