Yeee hawwww! Saiga 12 for the win!

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If you don't mind my asking, what could make it a DD?

edit: I see
(f) Destructive device. -- The term "destructive device" means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) mine, or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device" shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes.
Click to expand...
 
The problem is that there is no definition of "sporting" so nobody has the slightest clue what criteria are used. Basically if it starts getting shown in rap videos, it will make the list.

The guys doing the manufacturing made extra sure that the ATF wouldnt get pissed at this. They said that as long as people are obeying 922(r) they dont care how big the mags are.

My non-authortative interpretation is that:
1) Saigas, as imported, are definitely sporting arms. This is unequivocably true.
2) What many gun owners refer to as the "Saiga-12" is not actually a "Saiga-12" in the legal sense of the word. The original imported saiga is unmade in the disassembly process and a new domestic firearm is made in compliance with 922(r). They are custom shotguns that are "made" by gunsmiths and by individual owners. This is per the definition and the ATF rulings on 922(r). This is how foreign AKs enter the country- as parts that become US manufactured guns.
3) The non-sporting shotgun restriction only applies to commercially mass-produced shotguns, not to custom ones. Otherwise there would be no forewarning of what required registration or not, which would offend Due Process. Since "sporting" currently has no objective criteria, the shotgun remains title I unless you do something to move it into an objective Title II category like shortening the barrel below 18 inches, converting it to full auto or fitting a silencer.
 
But Mossberg 500s, etc., are sporting, and yet the Knoxx drum mags were pulled because the BATFE said they'd need to reclassify any shotgun with one as a DD.... supposedly.
 
No, thats not true. The guy who makes them said that he wasnt doing a semiauto drum because he would get in trouble with the ATF. But who knows if he really asked them.

If knoxx pulled his drums, I have no idea why. I think he posts here sometimes, so he might be able to answer.

As for sporting, it varies. In some cases the ATF has argued that pump action home defense type shotguns were the state level equivalent of destructive devices.

Regarding the 18 USC 921 definition of destructive device, there has been practically zero activity. Nearly every "unsporting" shotgun found on a criminal fits squarely into the "short barrelled shotgun" category, so there is no need to waste time arguing the definition of "sporting purposes."

So far the only shotguns reclassed as DDs were USAS 12 and the streetsweeper family during the Clinton/Bentson years. This was (I think)May or June of 1994, about 6 months before they lost both houses of congress in the post AWB bloodbath. The political environment was very very pro gun control at the time, but much has changed.
 
Yeah, lets see:
from the factory the AA12 is:
-full auto post-86 weapon
-drum fed with massive ammo capacity
-pistol grip
-short barrel
-massive weight

Basically all the things listed in the 94 desicion plus a cherry on top.

The saiga is different in that:
-old style english sporting stock with no pistol grip
-5 round capacity
-long barrel
-light weight
-sporting choke system available

The converted saigas lose the stock and gain some mag capacity, but not that much. The truly non-sporting ones are already registered as SBSes anyway, like mine will soon be.
 
That's just great. I like my 8-rounders, but 10 is just like adding that cherry on top.

Between the rail and the mags, I know where my next paycheck is going...
 
Okay, I had a question about DD's:

Let's suppose that the machinegun clause of the FOPA was repealed. Cool.
Now let's say that you have a registered USAS-12 destructive device. You've paid the $200 tax on it. Now let's say you want to convert it to select-fire. Would you have to pay another tax on it, considering that it's already registered?

I think that the answer would be no, but you'd have to let the BATFE know about it and the receiver would have to be the registered part. You wouldn't be allowed to move the sear from one gun to another. If you registered the sear then I think you'd have to pay the tax but you can move it from one gun to another.

Food for thought, this is purely hypothetical.
 
can unconverted saiga shotguns in 12 Gauge accept magazines larger than 5rds without modifications?
 
Go ahead and delete this thread if you think it is inappropriate mods
Click to expand...

Why? The Saiga 12 is the coolest shotgun in the world. (sorry Dave and sm, my 870 just doesn't get used as much anymore) :)

There is so much controversy surrounding the whole DD thing, but basically there is nothing stopping the ATF from declaring whatever they feel like non-sporting. So we can either choose to live our lives in fear of something that might happen, or we can move on and do things legally to the best of our ability.

We had posters telling us not to build the .308 20 rounders either because the ATF would ban the importation of the Saiga .308. :scrutiny:
 
beerslurpy said:
Since "sporting" currently has no objective criteria, the shotgun remains title I unless you do something to move it into an objective Title II category like shortening the barrel below 18 inches, converting it to full auto or fitting a silencer.
Click to expand...

OEF_VET, you listening? It is our duty as Americans to build the world's first full-auto, integrally suppressed SBS. :D
 
Larry, you're forgiven. The Saiga strikes me as a really good idea. A 12 gauge AK action semi with superb reliability and decent ergonomics for a few hundred.

Now if it came with an English style stock and a bit of Rose and Scroll on the receiver.....
 
SAWEET! I may have to give Correia a call soon and give myself an early Christmas present (like I actually needed another excuse to get a Saiga).
 
Where are these 10 rounders and for how much money are they selling?

Mike
 
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