"Yer reloading your gun wrong!" the guy at the range said...

[David E]

Some instructors, John Farnam among them, teach racking the slide after every reload, even if the slide is fully forward.

The theory is, in the heat of battle, you just don't know with 100% certainty that the slide closed on a loaded chamber. Did you inadvertantly hold down the slide stop? Did the slide stop otherwise fail to catch?

Smartly racking the slide even if fully forward removes those doubts. At worst, you lose a round that was in the chamber, but that loss is alleviated by the fact that you now know for certain a live round is chambered.

The downside is, you may induce a malfunction trying to eject a cartridge that is longer than spent brass. And, any subsequent shooting may require the previously chambered round that's now rolling on the floor.

But it's a good technique to know, as you may find a particular circumstance where it would be extremely wise to do it.

 

[jreagan]

Another datapoint, I was at SigAcademy today. We were taught both using the slide lock/release as well as the overhand "slingshot" method. The instructors did talk about fine/coarse motor control, but said both methods were fine. And we certainly released the slide on an empty gun without a mag.

 

[cipher]

The slide stop on a 1911 is good enough to be used by itself. I don't do it, but I don't see a problem with it.

On a double action pistol, with a small frame, I usually have problems getting my big fingers to work the little stubs they call slide stops.

It's definitely faster to depress the slide stop.

 

[yooper_sjd]

this post is just to damn histerical!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
on any 1911a1 and m9 i shot for 20 yrs in the service, it was called a "SLIDE RELEASE"
And to always let the weapon load itself! i.e. let the slide go forward by itself! and out of 20 yrs of military service, I was a small arms instructor/range master for 15 yrs........

But what would I know

 

[167]

This is what I have been taught and why. I have been taught to use the overhand technique (not the sling-shot, there is a difference) the reason being that in a gunfight conditions are not perfect. My hands may be covered in blood, sweat, rain, mud, whatever, and working the slide catch is less reliable under those conditions than the overhanded technique. We have done drills to demostrate this, and in my training experience it has proven to be true. Not to mention if it is cold enough it gets really hard to pull the trigger properly, much less work the slide catch.

So deterioration of fine motor skills aside, there are environmental factors that in my experience can be mitigated by using the overhand technique. There is also research to suggest that it can be harmfull to train to do the same thing two different ways. So I stick with one technique and just role with it.

That being said, I have found that there are some handguns that do not lend themselves well to the overhand technique, for those you have to figure out something else. Or just don't use them if you have a choice. .

 

[NCPatrolAR]

A few quotes from other people that I dug up

This thread has listed all the oft-cited reasons for racking the slide (more reliable, won't wear the slide, gross motor skill) but none of that is demonstrable. Are there people who teach it? Yes. Are there folks who believe in it? Yes. Are there folks who've done it that way in a fight and prevailed? Yes.

Does that mean it's the best way? No.

Here's my claim: using the slide release is faster. I can prove that.

All those other claims (more reliably feeds the round, won't wear out the slide, won't be fumbled under stress) are unproven at best. They sound "tactical" because the folks originally advocating the technique new they needed a hook, and "our gun has a problem so please don't use the slide release" wasn't really a good sales approach.

I taught 22 SWAT cops today, and one of the things we worked on was reloads. I gave my normal spiel about the slide release being faster and then let them do it however they wanted. Most of the guys used the slide release. The guys from one agency insisted on doing things the way they've always done them which included racking the slide. I saw far more fumbles and more induced stoppages by the "rackers" than the "releasers." When this was pointed out, their frequent errors and problems were written off, as I said, simply on the basis of "our way will work better in a fight."

Yah, ok. Because most of our skills work better under the stress of a lethal threat.

You want to rack the slide, knock yourself out. The odds that it will ever make a difference in your life are so ridiculously infinitesimal that we might as well argue about which color boxers you should wear on Tuesdays. Just don't try to convince me that the demonstrably slower way is better because on paper you can imagine it having some problems.

Since someone brought up the multiple pistols thing I figured I would jump into this again.

IF you have to use mulitple, differently laid out pistols, and do not want to put any effort in training, then you will probably be better served with a slide-rack.

However, if you put in some training specific to the item that will be your last viable method of saving your life it will not be such a big deal. People seem to be able to shoot and manipulate ARs and switch over to AKs, they can do it when switching from ARs to pistols, from SMGs to shotguns, from autos to revolvers, but apparently for some inexplicable reason, they will not be able to make the connection that they are carrying or using different auto pistols.

While I think that it has a direct connection to the SIMP, it is not uncommon for people to be able to tell the difference between forks and spoons, and use them appropriately.

I recommend using the technique that works most efficiently for the individual weapon and user. If that happens to be the slide stop, so be it. If it happens to be racking the slide, fine. But to make the assumption that we must treat every pistol like it is the same is overly simplistic. What about revolvers? What about DA/SA pistols? Do we have to train to shoot each shot as if it were a DA?

My answer-
Be familiar with your tools. Train with them as if your life depends on it. There is nothing instinctive or reflexive about shooting or manipulating weapons, that is why we train. The more you train simple, sound, effective, and efficient skills correctly, the better you will perform when the chips are down. Dilligence in execution is a requirement for superior performance in any condition.

On the slide stop vs over the top..

"I've never missed the slide stop, in a million rounds"..Jim Smith.

When I learned to shoot a handgun, I had the good fortune to be taught by a guy that worked for the same unit LAV, Smith and Howe were in.
He taught me the the thumbs forward and strong isosceles long before I read it in a magazine.
He also taught me to reload using the slide stop, because your weak hand thumb is already there.

I never considered using the strong thumb, as it was to far of a reach. Yes you "flip" the gun to hit the mag release, but is already back in a firing grip before the mag is in the gun. Every instructor who I've trained with that advocated the slide stop used the weak hand. I believe this is because the technique has its roots in the 1911.

I've used that technique with every gun I've ever shot, 1911, Glock, M&P, SIG, Beretta, Ruger .22, etc. I do have smaller hands, so that alleviates many of the problems that are mentioned here. When I'm shooting a gun w/o a safety my thumb rides over my weak hand thumb knuckle, sorta. So when I reload its naturally off the gun, leaving the slide stop exposed, even on a SIG.

At one time I was handed a worn out SIG 220 to qualify with(for a job interview), despite not having shot a SIG in years, I had no trouble manipulating the slide stop.

I have really appreciate the discussion here. This is something that I have recently been wrestling with in my own training. I had plateaued and grown somewhat stagnant at a certain skill level. The same old techniques were not yielding any new gains. It was time for a change so I have begus to apply more thought to every thing that I do.

I have always reach over the slide for no other reason than that is the way I have trained and been trained by others. I will likely continue doing it this way, at least for a while. However, I have found that there are MEASURABLE gains to be had by using the slide release and I have begun to work that into my dry fire regimen and range time.

This is one of those cases where both are GOOD. It may be up to the individual shooter to determine what is BEST based on practice, efficiency, consistency, and other measurable factors like time/speed. The decision to use one technique or the other should not be based on regurgitated phrases and ideas that have been passed down through training courses with little regard as to what is actually fact and what has simply become training's version of an urban legend. Don't let "doctrine" get in the way of critical thought and measurable gains.

Is reaching over the slide a viable technique? Absolutely. Will someone who releases the slide with their support hand be faster than someone who reaches over the slide given that both shooters are of equal skill levels? Absolutely.

I think that continuing to use a valid technique for no other reason than you have years of muscle memory is perfectly fine. It is still a valid technique. But just be careful that you are not continuing to regurgitate the same tired and unsubstantiated reasons for doing something. Let's expect more from ourselves!

I do not believe it takes an inordinate amount of training resources to become proficient with using the slide stop, or using your sights, or any number of TTP's.
Having said that, if you lose a gunfight because of your reload technique, it was probably lost long before it got there.

More interesting to me -- and something I bring up every time an instructor tells me that manufacturers "intend it to be a slide lock not a slide release" -- is that they're all serrated on top, to help depress them (releasing the slide) rather than being serrated on the bottom which would make more sense if their primary purpose was pushing up to lock the slide. Just sayin' ...

 

[smoothdraw]

What about for an AR? Do you guys press the bolt catch, or do you pull the charging handle all the way back in order to "slingshot" it? I know we're talking handguns here, but it strikes me as odd that if we're not supposed to press on the catch, then why is there a place for your thumb on it?

I press my Magpul B.A.D lever

 

[smoothdraw]

I use slidelock release lever most of the time and sometime slingshot. There's no right or wrong. Folow your gun manufacture's recommendation if it makes you sleep better.

Also different weapon have different mojo's. All my 1911's are okay to dryfire but not a good idea to slam the slide back on empty chamber. While my HK's are okay to slam my slide all day but then have to use snap caps to dryfire.

But what i really have learned in this thread is don't disrespect your elders even they are full of BS.

 

[SSN Vet]

FWIW... my coworker is a marksmanship coach in the USMC reserve....

He says that marines are taught to reload the M9 by toggling the slide stop with either their shooting hand thumb or off hand thumb. He says that a lot of guys get bit when they overhand the slide, as the M9 has an open receiver.

 

[1911Tuner]

this post is just to damn histerical!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, it is. It went past ridiculous after the 3rd page, and has turned into one of those:

"This is how I do it, and if YOU you don't do it like that, you're an idiot."

If the slidestop protrudes from the side of the gun and has a textured non-skid surface...it's meant to be used as a slide release. If it will also allow placing in battery by manually pulling the slide rearward and releasing...it's designed to do that, too. Simply put...it's designed to work either way, as you choose, and sometimes that choice is dictated by the situation.

A locked, empty weapon is a stoppage. A stoppage take time to recognize and clear, no matter what causes it.

 

[heron]

It depends on the pistol.

I have a Ruger 22/45 MK III, and I just tested it with a loaded mag.

It doesn't have a slide.

Bolt locks open after the last round fired. Drop empty mag, insert loaded mag -- now, try to slingshot it. No matter how you yank and release the bolt, it will not go into battery. The only way to accomplish that is to push down the "bolt stop" button.

Oh, I'm sorry -- I forgot . . . this is the S&T forum, and nobody would ever use a .22 for that . . .

 

[Shawn Dodson]

SSNVet writes:

He says that marines are taught to reload the M9 by toggling the slide stop with either their shooting hand thumb or off hand thumb. He says that a lot of guys get bit when they overhand the slide, as the M9 has an open receiver.

If they're getting bit then they're riding the slide. I was never bitten by my Beretta 96 when I manipulated it using the overhand method.

The shooter should grasp the slide behind the ejection "port" using the overhand method previously described and then rack the slide with vigor like you're trying to rip the slide off the frame. Your hand will slide right off the slide.

Blackbeard writes:

What about for an AR? Do you guys press the bolt catch, or do you pull the charging handle all the way back in order to "slingshot" it? I know we're talking handguns here, but it strikes me as odd that if we're not supposed to press on the catch, then why is there a place for your thumb on it?

smoothdraw replies:

I press my Magpul B.A.D lever

I have the MagPul Battery Assist Device installed on all my AR/M4s. I use it to lock the bolt open only.

Yes, I operate the charging handle to retract and release the bolt after a combat reload. I don't manually disengage the bolt lock. It's the identical movement I use to clear other stoppages: Seat, Roll & Rack. That's how I do it. It's a reliable, robust, efficient, and quick method that works for me.

A slide/bolt lock may have indeed been originally designed to facilitate manual release. I don't regard it as incorrect to manually release it nor do I regard it as incorrect to release it by retracting the slide/bolt.

 

[ejbrush]

The Norwegian M1914,

which is a clone of the 1911, has a thing-a-ma-bob that is extended down and back. Ya know, like you'd do to make it easier to operate with, say, a thumb while the pistol is still in your hand, wearing gloves...
Just sayin.

 

[StrikeFire83]

This thread just goes to show that pig-headedness and stupidity aren't confined to the range.

As the original poster, I move that the thread be allowed to die a quiet death.

 

[1911Tuner]

This thread just goes to show that pig-headedness and stupidity aren't confined to the range.

Yup. If the gun allows the option...do it any that you choose, according to whatever works best for you.

As the original poster, I move that the thread be allowed to die a quiet death.

Your wish is my command.

 

[1911Tuner]

Closed

On OP's request.


Goodnight Chesty...wherever you are.