"Yer reloading your gun wrong!" the guy at the range said...

[4thPointOfContact]

Should we assume that this whole 'does so!" - nuhuh, does not!" debate only applies to semiautomatic handguns?

So far I haven't heard anyone advocate not hitting that itty bitty button on the side of an M4 and pulling back the charging handle instead. Slapping one's palm against the button may be considered a 'gross motor skill', but wouldn't that mean Magpul just did something pretty dumb by placing on the market a device that requires a 'fine motor skill' to do the same job; the Battery Assist Device.

 

[DT Guy]

If you can't hit the slide release during stress, you probably aren't a person who should be pulling a trigger. Maybe they should make pistols that require an overhand karate chop to fire, as that's just about the 'gross motor movement' equivalent of slingshotting a slide.

Larry

 

[NCPatrolAR]

NCPatrolAR writes: When the unexpected happens your OODA loop resets.

When you train to Seat, Roll & Rack, and if the slide unlocks when the magazine is seated, then no problem. You merely progress to the next action that you're already conditioned to perform - Roll & Rack. There will be no "click".

So you're content with adding an extra step; thats cool.

 

[NCPatrolAR]

Should we assume that this whole 'does so!" - nuhuh, does not!" debate only applies to semiautomatic handguns?

So far I haven't heard anyone advocate not hitting that itty bitty button on the side of an M4 and pulling back the charging handle instead. Slapping one's palm against the button may be considered a 'gross motor skill', but wouldn't that mean Magpul just did something pretty dumb by placing on the market a device that requires a 'fine motor skill' to do the same job; the Battery Assist Device.

The entire fine/gross motor skill thing is highly over-played.

 

[Schofield3]

Use the KISS Principle .....

If it's working for you then it isn't broke, so don't try to fix it.

Amen!

 

[Shawn Dodson]

NCPartrolAR writes:

So you're content with adding an extra step; thats cool.

When I carried a Beretta 96 on patrol the slide mounted manual safety required the addition of an extra step in the immediate action: Seat, Roll & Rack, Safety.

In many cases when I energetically retracted the slide to clear a stoppage I inadvertantly engaged the slide mounted manual safety. Therefore immediately after I racked the slide I slid my firing hand thumb along the top edge of the grip panel to positively ensure the manual safety was disengaged. Experimentation revealed that sliding my thumb along the top edge of the grip panel conditioned me to the feel of the grip panel edge and not the position of the lever. The technique is blind to the position of the lever. It could be up or down or somewhere in between, it didn't matter because I didn't need to sense the position of the lever.

 

[9mmepiphany]

When I carried a Beretta 96 on patrol the slide mounted manual safety required the addition of an extra step in the immediate action: Seat, Roll & Rack, Safety.

the Beretta 92/96 is the exception to the rule

when we have one of these in class, the slide stop is the more error free method because of the tendency to push the safety on.

the solution is to always train to push it off as you have or to convert to the "G" model in which the slide mounted "safety" only serves as a de-cocker

 

[Crusader103]

Shawn Dodson writes:

In many cases when I energetically retracted the slide to clear a stoppage I inadvertantly engaged the slide mounted manual safety.

Wouldn't this be a good argument for using the slide release when reloading...so as not to accidentally engage the safety? That's what I do on my stock Beretta and been winning IDPA matches with it for quite some time.

Yes, I know you were referring to a malfunction clearance but malfunctions occur much less frequently than reloads.

Two separate things, reloads and malfunctions. Therefore, two separate things to do. I don't find it confusing to do one thing when I am reloading and another when I am clearing a malfunction. They are not even remotely connected.

That being said, I do not have a problem with either method as long as it works for the shooter. I present in training, and practice, both methods. I said that way back in Post #19 as well as being the first to point out (yeah me) the engagement of the slide mounted safety issue and that the depression of the mag release is a "fine" motor skill as well.

Be aware. Shoot accurately.

Joshua Scott
www.FrontSightFocus.org

 

[Drail]

Use the slide stop and just smile when some "tactical" dude tells you you're doing it wrong. It was put there for a purpose. If tripping the stop to release the slide causes wear on the slide or stop it's because it's not fitted properly, not because you used it for its intended purpose. Fine motor skill/gross motor skill is a load of BS from people that don't know what they're talking about. Hitting a target is a fine motor skill. If you can't do that then nothing else matters.

 

[HexHead]

The old guy was right.

The slide lock lever or slide stop lever is not meant to simply be released in that manner. The recoil spring is under tremendous pressure and when released, that energy often transfers to the slide lock lever in a negative manner, causing unnecessary wear and tear. I have seen someone release the slide in that manner and shear the lever right off.

The only proper way to chamber a semi-auto is by the slingshot technique, which is something that you should be practicing anyway so that you build the muscle memory needed for clearing malfunctions.

Well, I guess Nighthawk Custom doesn't know anything about guns then. They specifically suggest only using the slide stop to release the slide, and not "slingshotting" it. Their reasoning is that over time, slingshotting can cause uneven slide to frame wear. But again, what do they know?

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I will reload my guns how I please, thank you very much.

I push down the slide stop to chamber rounds on all my handguns. On 1911 and S&W metal frame pistols the slide stop is a little far forward to reach easily with my shooting hand thumb, forcing me to turn the gun sideways quite a bit, but is perfectly placed for my support hand thumb. You don't always have both hands available. And Kahr specifically recommends that you use the slide stop. If my handgun will not reliably chamber a round from slide lock this way, there is something wrong with it and I will have it repaired or scrapped.

 

[NCPatrolAR]

NCPartrolAR writes: When I carried a Beretta 96 on patrol the slide mounted manual safety required the addition of an extra step in the immediate action: Seat, Roll & Rack, Safety.

In many cases when I energetically retracted the slide to clear a stoppage I inadvertantly engaged the slide mounted manual safety. Therefore immediately after I racked the slide I slid my firing hand thumb along the top edge of the grip panel to positively ensure the manual safety was disengaged. Experimentation revealed that sliding my thumb along the top edge of the grip panel conditioned me to the feel of the grip panel edge and not the position of the lever. The technique is blind to the position of the lever. It could be up or down or somewhere in between, it didn't matter because I didn't need to sense the position of the lever.

And what does all that have to do with adding a non-needed step for the sake of uniformity across platforms?

 

[YammyMonkey]

It's all a matter of what you've trained & what you're comfortable with. I have no problem with either but, again, will caution folks that I've seen more user-induced malfunctions from slide racking than slide stop thumbing.

Clearing a malfunction & performing a reload, while similar, differ greatly in the immediate response to the gun not going bang. There are some people whose grip locks the slide release down when firing so in their case that doesn't apply. Same goes for guns w/o slide stops, but that's an obvious exception to the discussion.

Since this has gone on for a while & expanded a bit, we have to look at & address the big picture. Unless the threat is going to be on you almost immediately the natural reaction is going to be to look at the gun. You can try to train that out on the range w/dummy rounds & focusing downrange during reloads. Unfortunately, you know there are dummy rounds in the gun. You know about when the gun will run dry & need a reload. Under the stress of a fight you're not gonig to have that perfect response pre-rigged in your brain ready to go. You're going to be focused on the threat(s) at hand.

When your main tool goes down you're going to look at it. At this point you'll see one of two things: slide forward or slide back. Slide forward = tap/roll/rack/fight. Slide back = hit mag release while breaking firing grip of support hand to get new mag, mag to gun, insert, make slide go forward. There is certainly enough difference in those procedures & time available during the reload to allow your brain to subconsciously reset the thumb to hit the slide release. Yes, even for someone capable of doing a sub 2 second reload from concealment.

If we're talking about someone with minimal training & practice time who struggles to do a reload period, they have bigger issues than trying to shave 1/3 sec off their times or creating consistency under stress. Pick one & practice it until the skillset is fundamentally developed. Then worry about fine-tuning one way or the other. If the student gets something unexpected & vapor locks they're in this stage.

But, since we're on the topic of the brain, if a particular technique makes you more confident/comfortable then use it. If all you've trained for years & years & thousands upon thousands of rounds is overhand release it may not be worth the mental conflict & brain-frag to try something else. The ideal would be to train & be able to apply both in case of some oddball failure. You know, kind of like practicing support hand only drills.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Wouldn't this be a good argument for using the slide release when reloading...so as not to accidentally engage the safety? That's what I do on my stock Beretta and been winning IDPA matches with it for quite some time.

Yes, I know you were referring to a malfunction clearance but malfunctions occur much less frequently than reloads.

Will your slide be locked open?

With a Beretta 92/96, when you experience a misfire, what is your immediate action? Probably some form of tap/rack, correct? Therefore the possibility exists that you’ll disturb the position of the slide mounted manual safety.

With a depleted magazine tap/rack will most likely result in the slide remaining locked open. Because tap/rack didn’t get the gun running you automatically progress to combat reload. If the slide remains locked open after you seat the fresh magazine then you can indeed manually release the slide lock. But when you press the trigger you may experience another misfire if the manual safety is engaged. Repeating tap/rack won’t get the gun running.

Also, if you experience a doublefeed, which is more likely to be induced by tap/rack than an extractor problem, then repeatedly racking the slide to clear it increases the chances that the slide mounted manual safety will be disturbed. In addition the slide will not be locked open after you seat the magazine. Finally if the manual safety has been disturbed by all the activity then you may experience another misfire in which tap/rack will not clear.

Why perform tap/rack if you can clearly see that the slide is not in battery instead of immediately performing a combat reload? For one thing, lighting conditions might not allow you to clearly see. Also, the slide won’t be in battery during a failure to feed, failure to eject or doublefeed, so your attempt to visually diagnose the failure (depleted magazine) might not be correct.

And what does all that have to do with adding a non-needed step for the sake of uniformity across platforms?

With a Kahr PM-9, if you experience a misfire then your immediate action is some form of tap/rack. Therefore if the pistol only reliably feeds when the slide stop is manually disengaged or during actual firing, then there’s a good chance that tap/rack to clear one stoppage will produce a consecutive stoppage - failure to feed.

If tap/rack fails to get the gun running then we automatically progress to combat reload. When the magazine release is pressed the magazine may not jettison if the cartridge is jammed into the feed ramp under recoil spring pressure and remains within the magazine feed lips. If the magazine doesn’t jettison to clear the way for the reload then we automatically proceed to slide lock/magazine drop/rack/rack/rack/reload/rack/drive-on?

(Or for those who insist to operate their PM-9 by the book:* slide lock/magazine drop/rack/rack/retract & lock/reload/release slide lock/drive-on. LOL! (Things might be a little more interesting when hands are cold and clumsy, or wet and slippery with water or blood.))

The “non-needed” step (palm strike) is a positive measure to preclude all these other “non-needed” steps with the Kahr PM-9.

*The Kahr PM-9 manual states:

Do not chamber a round by pulling back on the slide and letting go of the slide. This may cause the slide to not go fully into battery.

 

[NCPatrolAR]

The “non-needed” step (palm strike) is a positive measure to preclude all these other “non-needed” steps with the Kahr PM-9.

My non-needed step comment has nothing to do with the PM-9. It has to do with you advocating instantly going into immediate action (tap, rack) when the slide goes forward when you insert a mag. Anyone that has spent any amount of time realizes that this occurrence will typically result in a round being chambered and the gun being ready to go back into the fight. Why delay getting back into the fight for the sake of making sure the gun is chambered. This mindset kind of reminds me of people that used to advocate always hitting the forward assist on an AR/M16 when you chambered a round. It is simply an un-needed step.

But as I said previously, if you want to add a step that delays you getting back into the fight; thats cool. Its your gunfight after all; not mine.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

It has to do with you advocating instantly going into immediate action (tap, rack) when the slide goes forward when you insert a mag. Anyone that has spent any amount of time realizes that this occurrence will typically result in a round being chambered and the gun being ready to go back into the fight.

Thanks for clarifying.

Tap/rack is a conditioned action that's performed EVERY time the magazine is seated. It’s a common technique to successfully accomplish multiple, progressive manipulation tasks with minimal decision-making.

Load:
Slide in battery - tap/rack
Slide locked open – tap/rack
Slide goes into battery during load – tap/rack

Combat reload:
Slide locked open – tap/rack
Slide in battery – tap/rack
Slide goes into battery during reload – tap/rack

Magazine unseated (one shot wonder) - tap/rack

Chamber empty (dead man’s gun) – tap/rack

Failure to feed – tap/rack

Failure to eject – tap/rack

Faulty cartridge – tap/rack

Conscious, analytical decision-making isn’t required to keep the gun running. There’s no unwelcome “extra” branch (release slide lock) in the decision-making process to muddy things up when the unexpected happens.

Tap/rack is intuitive. When the unexpected happens the OODA Loop resets. Tap/rack short circuits the OODA loop – the shooter Observes then intuitively progresses directly to Act without having to Orient and Decide. This is where quickness comes from.

Finally, in a gun battle, a shooter might not realize that the slide went into battery during a combat reload. If this occurs, tap/rack will not delay recovery from the stoppage. If the shooter is conditioned to release the slide lock (because that’s his practice for loading and reloading) and the action doesn’t provide the expected tactile feedback – then the unexpected just happened, his OODA Loop resets, and now he must consciously observe and orient to the new situation and make a decision before he acts.

I believe tap/rack is more efficient, increases quickness, and is more forgiving of the unexpected. When I Load I use it as an opportunity to train. I train the way I fight.

Tap/rack and drive-on.

Cheers!

 

[NCPatrolAR]

Thanks for clarifying.

Tap/rack is a conditioned action that's performed EVERY time the magazine is seated. It’s a common technique to successfully accomplish multiple, progressive manipulation tasks with minimal decision-making.

Load:
Slide in battery - tap/rack
Slide locked open – tap/rack
Slide goes into battery during load – tap/rack

Combat reload:
Slide locked open – tap/rack
Slide in battery – tap/rack
Slide goes into battery during reload – tap/rack

Magazine unseated (one shot wonder) - tap/rack

Chamber empty (dead man’s gun) – tap/rack

Failure to feed – tap/rack

Failure to eject – tap/rack

Faulty cartridge – tap/rack

Conscious, analytical decision-making isn’t required to keep the gun running. There’s no unwelcome “extra” branch (release slide lock) in the decision-making process to muddy things up when the unexpected happens.

Tap/rack is intuitive. When the unexpected happens the OODA Loop resets. Tap/rack short circuits the OODA loop – the shooter Observes then intuitively progresses directly to Act without having to Orient and Decide. This is where quickness comes from.

Finally, in a gun battle, a shooter might not realize that the slide went into battery during a combat reload. If this occurs, tap/rack will not delay recovery from the stoppage. If the shooter is conditioned to release the slide lock (because that’s his practice for loading and reloading) and the action doesn’t provide the expected tactile feedback – then the unexpected just happened, his OODA Loop resets, and now he must consciously observe and orient to the new situation and make a decision before he acts.

I believe tap/rack is more efficient, increases quickness, and is more forgiving of the unexpected. When I Load I use it as an opportunity to train. I train the way I fight.

Tap/rack and drive-on.

Cheers!

As I said; you do it your way; I'll do it mine.

 

[StrikeFire83]

Shawn, we can go back and forth on this all day long, but advocating violation of a manufacturers instructions for use of a firearm, specifically in reloading, simply to have a consistent manual of arms and training across different platforms, is simply bonkers.

Saying you load/reload the Kahr in a way that is specifically counter-indicated in the manual, and in a way that is widely known to induce malfunctions, because you have an extra step that can be helpful in overcoming said malfunctions, is tactically unsound and makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Frankly, this alone would seem to invalidate any credibility you may have had regarding the absolutist statements you've made about reloading techniques.

 

[Crusader103]

Shawn, I'm not sure that I'm disagreeing with you on some points. I just think some of what you are saying is hard to follow. No offense. I don't have a dog in the fight. Both ways are fine with me.

But to answer your questions...

Will your slide be locked open?

Of course my slide would be locked open on a reload. If I started with a loaded weapon and ran out of ammunition I would think so. Insert magazine. Slide release. Pretty simple.

With a Beretta 92/96, when you experience a misfire, what is your immediate action? Probably some form of tap/rack, correct? Therefore the possibility exists that you’ll disturb the position of the slide mounted manual safety.

I agree. I was the first to point that out in this thread. That is an inherent flaw with the slide mounted safeties but not something that is difficult to overcome. Tap, rack, simultaneously ensure safety off while coming to ready.

That does not mean that I perform the same action for a reload as I do for a malfunction. I do believe that they are two separate things. That is one area where I have a minor disagreement with you. I do not believe that there is any confusion nor time lost to perform two distinct actions for two distinct issues.

Reloading from slide lock- Release mag, insert mag, slide release (or slingshot or overhand).

Malfunction- Tap, rack, ready.

I just don't see any correlation that would require me to combine the two.

With a depleted magazine tap/rack will most likely result in the slide remaining locked open. Because tap/rack didn’t get the gun running you automatically progress to combat reload. If the slide remains locked open after you seat the fresh magazine then you can indeed manually release the slide lock. But when you press the trigger you may experience another misfire if the manual safety is engaged. Repeating tap/rack won’t get the gun running.

I wouldn't tap/rack with a depleted magazine. That would have resulted in my slide being locked open so I would reload. Maybe I'm just not following you but that seems like a lot of extra steps. If your slide locks back, reload. Heck, even if it was a jam that likely would have cleared it anyway.

Also, if you experience a doublefeed, which is more likely to be induced by tap/rack than an extractor problem, then repeatedly racking the slide to clear it increases the chances that the slide mounted manual safety will be disturbed. In addition the slide will not be locked open after you seat the magazine. Finally if the manual safety has been disturbed by all the activity then you may experience another misfire in which tap/rack will not clear.

I agree. Again.... Tap, Rack, ensure safety off as you Ready. But again, that was a malfunction, not a reload. Just not the same.

Why perform tap/rack if you can clearly see that the slide is not in battery instead of immediately performing a combat reload? For one thing, lighting conditions might not allow you to clearly see. Also, the slide won’t be in battery during a failure to feed, failure to eject or doublefeed, so your attempt to visually diagnose the failure (depleted magazine) might not be correct.

Again, maybe I'm not following you. "...so your attempt to visually diagnose the failure (depleted magazine) might not be correct." True enough, but what if it was dry? Are you advocating that if I believe my weapon runs dry in the dark, that I perform a Tap, Rack, Ready first and then if it still doesn't fire, reload?

Sorry, I'm not trying to sound like a jerk. I may just not be understanding you well enough.

Like I said, I advocate both techniques. I simply don't combine the procedure for a reload with the procedure for a malfunction. I see them as completely separate, easily diagnosable issues. I don't think they need to have the same resolution any more than I would need to swing a bat the same way as I do a golf club. I can tell the difference between the two games without confusion.

Be aware. Shoot accurately.

Joshua Scott
www.FrontSightFocus.org

 

[Dravur]

I just use an HK p7 I just squeeze

 

[Kingcreek]

After reading all of the advice in all of these posts...
I'm going to do all of my loading and slide releasing and jam clearing the same way I've always done it.
I just wish I hadn't taken so much time to read them.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Just out of curiosity, how many police departments or military organizations issue Kahrs?



If we're calling documented physiology that's taught by departments and training organizations all over the world BS, than I'm not too sure I can take this thread seriously.

 

[NCPatrolAR]

If we're calling documented physiology that's taught by departments and training organizations all over the world BS, than I'm not too sure I can take this thread seriously.

Refering to the calls of gross/fine motor skills being BS?

 

[ms6852]

I was told by my gunsmith to never release the slide using the catch on an empty gun without a magazine. It would ruin the work he had done on the trigger assembly of my springfield armor 1911. It was ok do it if I had a magazine and was chambering a round that way. As a lefty I seldom use the slide catch, in that fashion, too cumbersome for me.

 

[David E]

I was told by my gunsmith to never release the slide using the catch on an empty gun without a magazine.

Why would you reload your gun with an empty magazine?

There is a method for a lefty to quickly access and use the slide stop on most guns. There is another way that's quicker than the Overhand method that does not require the slide release, but it takes more practice.