"Yer reloading your gun wrong!" the guy at the range said...

[JamisJockey]

I slingshot the slide, only because it works on any and all autoloading pistols, no matter if its mine or someone else's. Also, my primary CCW is a kel-tec p3AT, which don't gots no slide stop.

 

[Leanwolf]

LOYALIST DAVE - " I know if you're on horseback holding the reins in your left hand you're not thumbing the slide-stop down, but how are you reloading at all if you are holding the reins?"

That one's simple. You just hold the reins in your teeth.

L.W.

 

[Balog]

None involving actual bullets, thankfully. A few during FoF training with Glock 19s modified to fire Simunition FX.

So you have no more real world basis for your technique anyone else, yet you see fit to question others based on lack of first hand experience? What a silly line of logic. Of course, you also train to deliberately induce malfunctions in your carry gun so...

 

[JamisJockey]

That one's simple. You just hold the reins in your teeth.

L.W.

Fill your hands you son of a bitches!

 

[David E]

Maybe this has been discussed already, but if so, it won't hurt to repeat it.

Words mean things. Using the proper words to describe a certain act makes sure everyone is on the same page........presuming that everyone understands what words describe which action.

To wit; there is the "sling shot" method and the "overhand" method for releasing the locked back slide.

THESE ARE NOT THE SAME.

The "Slingshot" method is not suitable for anything besides casual range shooting. To do the "slingsho" method, the shooter grasps the rear of the slide between thumb and forefinger. These are the only two digits of the support hand touching the slide at this moment. Add some sweat or stress, the shooter may well slip completely off the slide too soon.

The "Overhand" method is support hand at the rear top of the slide, palm down, 4 fingers grasping the slide to the rear, thumb pointing to chest, pulling slide completely to the rear before letting go. Meanwhile, the gun hand is pushing the gun forward towards the target. This is by far the better method of the two. This is the OVERHAND method, not the "slingshot" method.

 

[orionengnr]

The only proper way to chamber a semi-auto is by the slingshot technique

Thank you, Mr. Browning.

I've been using the slide release/stop/call-it-what-you-will for about 40 years now, and I think I'll keep using it.

If anyone at the range tells me "I'm doing it wrong" and he is shooting a whole lot better than me, I will probably listen to him. This has not happened yet. Not that people don't shoot better than me, because they do.

But...those who do are concentrating on their own shooting, and don't pay any attention to what I am doing.

I may be a heretic, but I do not own an autoloading pistol that does not function using the slide release. I almost sold my first Ruger MkII because it would not reliably feed the first round by using the bolt release. Several Ruger-dudes told me that "this was not the wat the pistol was designed to operate". Several disassemblies, cleanings, and re-assembles later, both my MkIIs work perfectly using the bolt release. As do my 1911s, my Kahrs, ....and every auto I own.

Life is hard....Not really

 

[David E]

Going back to the OP's question, I think he did the polite thing, nodding and smiling until the guy left him alone. Another question is, how long do you have to nod and smile to to a guy who is clearly not proficient enough to offer advice to anyone?

If this guy had approached ME...........I would've asked, "if dropping the slide on a loaded magazine is bad for the gun, then what's different when I'm firing and the gun is doing the same thing?

Then, depending upon my mood............. I may have challenged him to firing 6, reload, fire 6 more all in the 9 ring or better @ 7 yds and see who gets done first.

 

[RX-178]

I use the overhand method because I own multiple different types of handguns, and as Clint Smith says: Don't assume that you can predict what weapon you'll be using when you have to defend yourself.

It just comes down to the fact different weapons have slide catches in different spots, and I don't want to get into the habit of reaching for a slide catch that may or may not be there under stress. It's not even the argument that slide catches may be hard to manipulate under stress. I just like the overhand method because it does work on every autoloading handgun out there, and I might not be using a weapon that I'm particularly familliar with when I need to use a weapon to defend myself or my loved ones.

 

[Guns and more]

The old guy was right.

The slide lock lever or slide stop lever is not meant to simply be released in that manner. The recoil spring is under tremendous pressure and when released, that energy often transfers to the slide lock lever in a negative manner, causing unnecessary wear and tear.
The only proper way to chamber a semi-auto is by the slingshot technique, which is something that you should be practicing anyway so that you build the muscle memory needed for clearing malfunctions.

Please call Kahr Arms and tell them right away to change their instruction manuals.
They specifically order you to load the first round using the slide release. And I do.


P.S. If it is now a slide catch, I just have one question. Why does it have a place for your thumb?

 

[David E]

Operating the slide release/stop/catch (whatever you want to call it) is the fastest way to get a shot on target following a reload.

Those that say you cannot operate such a small mechanism under stress need to remember that none of them ever seems to cite having any trouble depressing the magazine release while under pressure......

But, learning and being able to do both (overhand and slide release) is the best thing.

Many "overhand" or "slingshot"-is-the-only-way crowd wants to bring up a "battlefield pickup" drill, saying, "what if you have to reload the cops Glock that he's fired to slide lock and you try to hit that tiny standard slidestop, your method won't work!!" they exclaim with glee....

Ok, what if THEY pick up the cop's 1911 that's been fired to slidelock and their overhand method won't work because the cop installed a Shok-Buff ? THEIR way won't work, either!

Learn both!!

All that said, it's more likely that if I get involved in a gunfight, it'll be with the gun I have on me. I'll train what's "best" with my gun 90% of the time. The other 10%, I'll practice the other way "just in case."

 

[NCPatrolAR]

That's the context of the OP's firearm - a 1911

Seeing how we’ve had people speaking of various firearms besides pistols and some pretty generic comments, I figured I’d ask.

Whereas the technique of manually releasing the slide lock to load introduces inconsistency, it is less fluid and less intuitive:

Less fluid how? When you insert a fresh mag, your support hand thumb is in prime position, except on Sigs and a few other makes, to depress the release. Depressing the release with your thumb allows you to better use economy of motion and flow back to your two handed grip which puts you back in the fight quicker. And getting back into the fight quick is the name of the game.

Seat & Release slide lock to load

This is only done in my experience if the slide is initially locked to the rear. Most people I know initially load a firearm with the bolt/slide forward (an administrative task).

Potential problem: if slide unexpectedly goes into battery when magazine is seated the shooter will most likely hesitate with indecision (e.g., Uhh, did I inadvertently release the slide lock? Uhh, did a round chamber? Uhh, do I engage the target? Uhh, do I rack the slide?)

The shooter will? Guys who have trained should be at the point where they are pushing the gun towards the threat as soon as they feel/see the slide/bolt moving forward. If they get a click, then they will typically default to immediate action (tap, rack, ready).

Potential problem: loading is the most frequent action performed by a shooter and the familiarity of “releasing the slide lock to load” might condition the shooter to automatically “release the slide lock” after seating the magazine (wasted motion, more decision-making) instead of intuitively racking slide to immediately load the chamber

Something I’ve yet to see occur when guys are loading a weapon with the slide forward. How many times have you seen this occur?

 

[Balog]

David E: interesting, I did not know those were two separate techniques.

Also, are there any documented cases of people needing to grab one of these "guns on the street" the poli-critters are always talking about and use it in a fight?

 

[NCPatrolAR]

The slingshot is typically where you pinch the slide of the pistol using just the thumb and index finger The overhand method involves the shooter reaching across the top of the slide grabbing one side with the thumb and 3-4 fingers gripping the other side. The overhand method is the more positive of the two in terms of grip on the slide.

 

[twofifty]

Good post(s), NCPatrolAR.



Incidentally, isn't the No. 1 function of the so-called "slide stop" or "slide release" to act as the fixed point from which the barrel tilts up and down into and out of battery?

Whether a slide stop locks or releases a slide after the last round if fired is not really mission critical: the gun can be reloaded and will still fire.
BUT let the stop's crosspin break or bend such that the barrel fails to cycle fully, now that is a real problem.

 

[David E]

Also, are there any documented cases of people needing to grab one of these "guns on the street" the poli-critters are always talking about and use it in a fight?

I'm sure there have been precious few, but that is the point. These armchair commandos cite this extremely rare circumstance to bolster their position.

As I mentioned, if _I_ am involved in a gunfight, there's a 99.99% chance it'll be with MY gun, not one I picked up from a fallen police officer.

 

[Ryder]

I used that technique for decades before I found out it was "wrong" but nowadays I slingshot because it is "kool" looking

There is a way to slingshot which avoids the potential for riding the slide forward and flubbing a crisp release.

How I do that is by pushing the gun forward with my strong hand while not relaxing my weak hand grip. Thus tearing it from the grasp of my weak hand. You are sure to get a good clean release that way every time once you get the hang of it.

 

[David E]

Yes, there are ways to bring sub-standard techniques up to "mediocre," but it's better to perform the superior technique in the first place.

 

[inbox485]

USMC MCRP 3-01B Pistol Marksmanship Page 2-10 instructs marines to use the "slide release" when performing dry reload. Go figure I always thought they knew a thing or two about guns. Perhaps somebody should set them strait.


Here's the info if anybody cares to school them on it:

Changes: Readers of this publication are encouraged to submit suggestions and changes that
will improve it. Recommendations may be sent directly to Commanding General, Marine
Corps Combat Development Command, Doctrine Division (C 42), 3300 Russell Road, Suite
318A, Quantico, VA 22134-5021 or by fax to 703-784-2917 (DSN 278-2917) or by E-mail to
[email protected]. Recommendations should include the following information:
l Location of change
Publication number and title
Current page number
Paragraph number (if applicable)
Line number
Figure or table number (if applicable)
l Nature of change
Add, delete
Proposed new text, preferably double-spaced and typewritten
l Justification and/or source of change

 

[StrikeFire83]

Being that I'm the originL poster, and that I don't own a 1911, I certainly wasn't talking about a 1911. I have a Glock 17, a CZ-75b, and a Kahr PM9, nobody ever said anything about 1911s. At least I didn't.

All of my guns have slide releases/stops, in virtually the same place, and I use them to re-load. I also train using the slingshot method on the guns that advocate it. Not my kahr. I also own a revolver, and obviously I use neither a slide release nor the slingshot method to reload it.

Oh well, methinks I did the right thing at the range.

 

[martialartsblackbelt]

OK any one ever have an accidental Discharge while doing this either way?

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Balog writes:

So you have no more real world basis for your technique anyone else, yet you see fit to question others based on lack of first hand experience? What a silly line of logic.

I was introduced to this technique and philosophy on handgun manipulations by Jeff Gonzales, a former Navy SEAL who saw combat in Panama. (You can learn more about him at www.tridentconcepts.com). Prior to that I spent 6+ years as a police officer patrolling a Navy town infested by gangs.

Of course, you also train to deliberately induce malfunctions in your carry gun so...

The potential exists to experience a failure to feed anytime I roll & rack my PM-9 to clear a stoppage.

IMO, the instruction in the Kahr manual to chamber a round from the magazine by manually operating the slide lock to release the locked open slide is a recipe for disaster that sets shooters up to fail in the event one must clear a stoppage in a gunfight. I saw this design flaw with the PM-9 as a fatal problem that required an unconventional technique to circumvent: Seat, Roll & Rack, Palm Strike. If it can happen, it will happen and I train to deal with it when it does happen.

Cheers!

 

[Shawn Dodson]

StrikeFire83 writes:

Being that I'm the originL poster, and that I don't own a 1911, I certainly wasn't talking about a 1911. I have a Glock 17, a CZ-75b, and a Kahr PM9, nobody ever said anything about 1911s. At least I didn't.

My bad. You mentioned that your "helper" had the 1911, not you.

David E writes:

The "Overhand" method is support hand at the rear top of the slide, palm down, 4 fingers grasping the slide to the rear, thumb pointing to chest, pulling slide completely to the rear before letting go. Meanwhile, the gun hand is pushing the gun forward towards the target. This is by far the better method of the two. This is the OVERHAND method, not the "slingshot" method.

BINGO!!! Thanks for the excellent clarification.

Cheers!

 

[9mmepiphany]

Being that I'm the originL poster, and that I don't own a 1911, I certainly wasn't talking about a 1911. I have a Glock 17

the G17 is a prime example of how a pistol is designed to be used differing from how the end users choose to use it.

the G17 was designed to have it's slide released by grasping the slide overhand and letting it fly forward...this was what Gaston Glock found was most current when he did his research into features to include in his design...that's why the slide lock/catch/stop was so small.

when it was imported into this country, many users (likely used to shooting a 1911) insisted on releasing the slide with the slide stop. then they complained abut the slide stop being hard to use and the accelerated wear on the slide catch notch in the slide (it wasn't meant to take that abuse)

rather than try to educate/offend customers, that changed the treatment on the slide and offer an extended slide stop.

it's rather like the full length guide rod in the 1911...it's not needed, but demand has caused a proliferation of them on the market

 

[Shawn Dodson]

NCPatrolAR writes:

The shooter will? Guys who have trained should be at the point where they are pushing the gun towards the threat as soon as they feel/see the slide/bolt moving forward. If they get a click, then they will typically default to immediate action (tap, rack, ready).

When the unexpected happens your OODA loop resets.

When you train to Seat, Roll & Rack, and if the slide unlocks when the magazine is seated, then no problem. You merely progress to the next action that you're already conditioned to perform - Roll & Rack. There will be no "click".

 

[Nicky Santoro]

"Yer reloading your gun wrong!" the guy at the range said...

OP,
I've had people ask me questions because I'm older and I suppose they thought I had answers to their questions. I'd just reply that they should get a hit then finish them off when they were down and that it worked in '69 and will work now. They usually go away then.