Yet another Pitbull attack.

[ilbob]

The problem with pit bulls or any other potentially aggressive breed of dog is not with the dog but with the owners.

Owners are pretty stupid. They allow their dogs off the leash because they are "so well behaved", even though there are leash laws. Then they are shocked when their dog takes off and attacks someone.

Any dog that is not well disciplined and under control might attack. Some are more likely to do so than others. Most pits are sweet and friendly dogs who would not hurt a fly. A few are not and there is no way to tell by looking at them. Most aggressive dogs give off signals that can warn you about them and give you some leeway. Pits usually don't.

Once a pit attacks it will not normally stop until either it is dead or its prey is dead. Even the owner is probably not going to be able to get it to stop. Most dogs that attack are not especially dangerous. A dog bite from a collie is not likely to kill you. They bite because they are skittish but it is almost never fatal or even serious.

The real answer to the aggressive dog problem is to make the owners act responsibly, and if they don't, to hold them accountable. If we can have laws making unsecured guns accessed by children illegal, we can certainly do the same thing with unsecured dogs.

 

[Q-Lock]

Very well said leadcounsel, MachIVshooter, ilbob, Razorburn and others! Thank you for the hyperlink as well, it will come handy.

As for the original question; I don't think I could ever just stand there and watch...I'd have to try something, although I doubt using a firearm would be the best method.

I just have to ask: AustDave, what exactly is a Pitbull/Mastiffs? Is that like a mountain lion/elephant? Or are you simply stating that the young girl was attacked by one of the few pitbull breeds and one of the few mastiff breeds?

American Pit Bull Terrier? Staffordshire Bull Terrier? Old English Mastiff? BullMastiff? Neopolitan Mastiff?

My point is that statements like the one you posted fail provide all of the facts...just like the main stream media. Most importantly these statements falsely accuse breeds of these acts...and you get the people who don't know better believing that these breeds are "man-eating, dangerous, attack" dogs, when in fact an entirely different breed of dog performed the act.

It amazes me how the majority of us (THR members) try to post within our knowledge when it comes to firearms, but this completely goes out the door when it comes to dogs. Why not apply the "post if you know what you're talking about (or if you have a question)" principle that we have for firearms to everything else on the forum?

I guess everyone's a dog expert once they've owned one...is that how it works?

Regards,

 

[Deanimator]

Arguments agains pitbulls are the EXACT arguments used by the anti-gun crowd to make certain SCARY guns illegal. Once that goal is accomplished, they move on to the next flavor of the month.

Mmmm, not really.

I've probably owned approaching fifty different guns in my life, and not a SINGLE one of them has, of its own volition, aimed itself at someone and shot them. NOT ONE.

Come to think of it, between being on a college rifle team, being an arms room officer, visiting dozens of gunstores and hundreds of gunshows, I have NEVER seen a gun do ANYTHING other than fall over, without direct human intervention.

On the contrary, I have seen dogs do all sorts of things without human prompting of any sort.

Remember, guns are inanimate objects. Dogs are ANIMATE objects.

 

[das028]

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


Damn fellas does it ever stop!

Come on mods, put this thread out of its misery

 

[dfaugh]

Why not apply the "post if you know what you're talking about (or if you have a question)" principle that we have for firearms to everything else on the forum?

Yeah, you're absolutley right...EVERYONE seems to be a "dog expert" on these threads.

For myself, I have spent 12 years breeding and training GSDs, for Schutzhund Sport, working with trainers from all over the country, and the world. I've worked with almost all of the breeds that people consider "dangerous".

I usually chime in with an opinion on these dog threads, but I'm sick of repeating myself, as well as having clueless people tell me I'm wrong. There are couple of other knowledgeable people on the board, and I think they're started to feel the same way.

I offered the Moderators to create a "sticky" about how to react to dogs and dog behaviors, but was turned down. So I've just started referring people to my old threads.

Here's a prefect example:

Once a pit attacks it will not normally stop until either it is dead or its prey is dead. Even the owner is probably not going to be able to get it to stop. Most dogs that attack are not especially dangerous. A dog bite from a collie is not likely to kill you. They bite because they are skittish but it is almost never fatal or even serious

B.S. Whether a dog will continue to fight depends on many factors. There are generally speaking, 2 types of dog fights. First are the ones where there's alot of snarling and snapping going on, but not any real damage. The second type is SERIOUS, and may end up as a fight-to-the-death. I've dealt with, and seen many of both. I have 4 GSDs (5 until recently) right now and NONE of them can be allowed out together. They WILL fight, and they WILL inflict SERIOUS, or FATAL damage, and they WILL NOT stop until they've "won" or killed the opponent . (I've got the scars to prove it). EACH of them is a true "alpha" and won't tolerate another dog in "their" space.

ANY breed will have some dogs that are more dominant (and more likely to stay in the fight) than others. Whether its a "pit bull", a Collie, or a Chihuahua. It all depend on their temperament. Mine are all so dominant that they will continue to fight, and will win or die trying. I've never seen a "pit bull" that could hold a candle too my 48 lb. East German Shepherd. She is truly hell-on-wheels (or legs)...She's caused 125 lb. males to "submit" (as well as several hundred dollars in vet bills, to patch up the "opponents"). She also got into it with one of my other females, and when I tried to break up the fight (knowing neither would stop) I got to ride in an ambulance. I'm not nearly as fast as I used to be!

 

[ilbob]

It seems to me you are admitting you have dangerous dogs and are refusing to take the proper steps to deal with them. Even extremely dominant dogs can be put under control if the owner is willing to put in the effort. I would be inclined to suggest what this says about you, but it would not meet THR standards.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I've probably owned approaching fifty different guns in my life, and not a SINGLE one of them has, of its own volition, aimed itself at someone and shot them. NOT ONE.

Come to think of it, between being on a college rifle team, being an arms room officer, visiting dozens of gunstores and hundreds of gunshows, I have NEVER seen a gun do ANYTHING other than fall over, without direct human intervention.

On the contrary, I have seen dogs do all sorts of things without human prompting of any sort.

Remember, guns are inanimate objects. Dogs are ANIMATE objects

What has been said is not that pits or other breeds can't or won't attack. Nobody is suggesting that a dog is like a firearm. What we have all said is that the media portreys certain breeds of dogs the same way they do certain types of firearms. Whenever a dog attacks, they are quick to say "pitbull" or "rottweiler". When a shooting happens, they will say "Uzi" or "AK-47". The attacking dog may have been a Golden Retriever, just as the gun used might have been a turn of the century SxS shotgun. The point is, the media tends to innacurately report on such things, thus causing panic whether it is a dog breed or gun.

Here in CO, about a half-dozen counties or cities have outright bans on pit bulls, others will grandfather them with special permits and insurance. People have allowed it to happen because it didn't affect them with their Pomeranian or whatever they had. This is the same as those gunowners who either supported the "assault weapons ban" or did nothing tro prevent it because they were still allowed to own/buy their Browning Citori.

How did that priest in Germany during WWII put it? First they came for the Jews and I did nothing.....................................Then they came for me, and there was no one left .................

 

[Q-Lock]

I disagree with you there ilbob. From the sounds of it, I am sure dfaugh's GSDs have their purpose. Not all dogs are little fuzzy teddy bears...the point is that you NEED to know your dog. Know what situation they can and cannot be put in.

Also, dfaugh mentioned that his dogs cannot be let out together; he did not say that they are dangerous when separated from each other. Being an alpha dog simply means they cannot be around other alpha dogs...nothing more. There is dog-aggerssive and human-aggressive...there is a undeniable difference between the two and they must both be taken into consideration when owning a dog with one of those "characteristics."

Highly "job specific" trained dogs are not the type of dogs that are let out to play with children and other dogs. I'm not quite sure how to word it, but there are dogs that are safe to "play" with and there are dogs that are not. Responsibility lies with the owner to properly control their dog. There are companion dogs and there are working dogs...there can be a huge difference between the two.

edited to add: MachIVshooter....perfect. Very well said!
Regards,

 

[dfaugh]

It seems to me you are admitting you have dangerous dogs and are refusing to take the proper steps to deal with them. Even extremely dominant dogs can be put under control if the owner is willing to put in the effort. I would be inclined to suggest what this says about you, but it would not meet THR standards.

Actually, my dogs are probably MUCH safer that the "average" untrained dog, you might encounter in public, say in a public park. My dogs are dominant, which means they want to be the boss...BUT the first and foremost lesson in their training is that I am the "KING", and whatever I say goes. Other humans get the same respect(especially my family), only less than I do. The dog that died recently, held multiple AKC obedience titles, in addition to his Schutzhund titles, including the "canine good citzen award". They have, throughout their lives, been around THOUSANDS of people, at various competitions and shows. No problems, nor would there be UNLESS you showed aggression to me or them. This is what we call "clear in the head".

No aggression = "play with me"
Aggression = "I'm gonna hurt you"

These dogs are dominant WITH OTHER DOGS. And NONE will start the fight, unless another dogs "challenges" their dominance. And, I can "call them off" easily, if need be, because they are TRAINED.

Once again, a STUPID (sorry moderators, but it needs to be said) response, from someone who doesn't understand.

P.S. The only reason I've been bitten, while breaking up dog fights, is that I managed to get my hand "in the way". None of my dogs would bite me, intentionally, and even if they do (intentionally when I first got them, or accidentally, which has happened while playing/training) they regret it. Because the 1st time they bite me intentionally (and most have) they learn that REALLY bad things happen when you bite Dad.

Editedd to add:
Thanks Q-Lock for re-enforcing my point we musta been typing at the same time.

Also, realize that my dogs have undergone hours, days, months, YEARS of training. I would not own a dog I couldn't trust 100% to behave EXACTLY as I know he/she will under any circumstance. So don't even try to tell me my dogs aren't trained. In fact, I've probably spent $30,000 on my most recent competition dog (uncluding what I paid for him.)

 

[trapperjohn]

I hereby propose that we foreswear the word "pit bull" from here on out. from now on for the sake of political correctness we should refer to any attacks by large dogs as either "large dog attacks" or "aggressive dog attacks"
It is obvious that the APBT is a discriminated against breed and as this being the high road we need to do the sensitive thing and never refer to a dogs breed when describing a dogs behaviour, after all we know that a persons race, creed, color, ethnic background, nose picking habits, et all. have nothing to do with any scenerio discussed here. we should not be judge a dog by its breed any more than we should judge a person by there race, right?

on top of that, if the word "pit bull" had been left out this thread would only have a 1/4th of the posts it now has and could have actually discussed the quesitons asked

 

[Selfdfenz]

Serious issues under discussion here I know but:

Because the 1st time they bite me intentionally (and most have) they learn that REALLY bad things happen when you bite Dad.

Lord have mercy that cracked me up.
Dogs, all dogs, do that the capability to assume that "Boy I can't believe I just did THAT...AGAIN...I'm-in-a-heap-of-trouble" look.

S-

 

[roo_ster]

On Topic:
Go speak with an attorney who works in your locaity. He can tell you not only the law, but the predilictions of the DA & Johnny Law.

Off Topic:
I love dogs and have had the pleasure of the acquaintance of several wonderful APBTs as well as several other breeds known (notorious?) for strength and/or aggression.

Comparing a dog to an inanimate object is pretty foolish.

Being more wary of certain breeds is common sense. The larger, more aggressive, or more powerful the breed; the more wary one ought to be around it. They can and do inflict more damage than the average miniature dachshund.

Stating that there is no greater risk from a APBT than from your average mutt is wrong-headed. Even if the APBT had a disposition equivalent to the most dizty blonde love-sponge golden retriever, the fact that a greater proportion of human scumbags own (& mistreat) APBTs than own goldens is reason enough to be more wary when encountering an APBT.

 

[Surefire]

Even if two breeds are equal in temperament (e.g. they both have the same rate of bites), the one to fear more is the one with a bigger frame and /or bred for greater jaw strength. In the example above (Am Staffs vs. Golden Retrievers), the Am Staff is going to do more damage if he bites in general than a Golden Retriever would.

 

[BusDog]

Uh, back to my original questions.

I phoned the D.A's office today. The gentleman I spoke with was great, he even used an example of a situation he had at his mountain home with, yes, a pitbull (I'm sure he was just playing into media hype). Bottom line, he said one would be justified in shooting a dog (pitbull or otherwise) that was attacking a child if death or great bodily harm could result as in this case. Further, one would be justified shooting a roaming dog that was attacking a pet on one's own property. Of course, there is always a civil suit.

Thanks to those who responded rationally. Not sure some of you really read the post. I did not call for a ban on anything. Where did you get that? I'm for all civil liberties, especially free speech. I'm not too sure MachIVshooter feels the same. Where do you get off telling anyone what their question "should" have been? How in God's green earth did you get "sunshine in my back yard mentality" and "encroachment on personal freedoms" from my post? If there is anything that is unbecoming it is knee jerk reactions like yours that don't even reflect the context of the original post.

Let's review. A pitbull attacked a six year old. I know thats hard to believe for some of you but its true. The child was hospitalized. In a forum called the High Road, many members were so quick to dispute the facts I relayed, defend a certain bread of dog, and insult the person posting that no one bothered to ask for an update on the child. That's disapointing.

 

[Lupinus]

Pit bulls are a potentially dangerous animal and the vast majority of owners don't know how to properly deal with such a dog. Do some people? Sure. Are they all going to go off on someone? No of course not. But they are a dog breed that was designed to fight and fight hard, that isn't something you can take out in a few generations especially when you have lines that have had no effort made to have it bred out. Plenty of dogs were bred to be guard or attack dogs but they have had a lot more time to have it bred out of them to be simple pets, pit bulls haven't had nearly as much time. As for them not being trained to be aggressive towards humans all I can say is . Aggressive is aggressive plain and simple. Bears don't naturally see humans as dinner either but you aren't going to walk up and pet one are you? No, you aren't. Pit bulls are domesticated so the chances with them are much better, but the fact remains they were bred to be aggressive and tough fighters and in many lines that hasn't been bred out nearly enough.

Oh and btw, I picked the pit bull on the first try.

 

[cookekdjr]

Busdog,
who did you talk with? I probably know him.You can pm me if you'd rather not post his name.
-David

 

[Quinch]

Actually, my dogs are probably MUCH safer that the "average" untrained dog, you might encounter in public, say in a public park.

BUT the first and foremost lesson in their training is that I am the "KING", and whatever I say goes. Other humans get the same respect(especially my family), only less than I do.

She also got into it with one of my other females, and when I tried to break up the fight (knowing neither would stop) I got to ride in an ambulance. I'm not nearly as fast as I used to be!

 

[Q-Lock]

...what part of dfaugh's post don't you understand?

I'm afraid I have to ask, but have you ever owned a dog? Have you ever owned any potentially dangerous animal? Your snippits make absolutely no sense Quinch.

What exactly are you confused about? Do you not realize that breaking up a dog fight can get you bit? You ever try to break up a fight and get caught by a stray punch....same thing but a lot worse with dogs.

Please post comprehendable opinions instead of quoting someone and simply putting up your "confused" face.

 

[dfaugh]

Quinch,
No questions asked but I think I understand the one implied.

Short answer(s): Difference between dogs and human, they were fighting each other, not me. However when I tried to break up the fight, they were hardly aware I was there, both were concentrating on hurting the other. I can usually stop the fight(s), by grabbing each by the collar, seperating them, and then they realize they BETTER knock it off, 'cause Dad's here, and he's NOT happy. In this case, however, they were fighting on a 4' square landing (with walls and rails on three sides). so there's me, and two fast moving mid-sized dogs in a really small space. In the pitch black dark. Did I mention that BOTH of them are REALLY fast? So I managed to grab one collar (right hand, bigger dog) and was going for the other with my left, when the one I had hold of went for the throat of the other. My hand just happened to be in the way. And she just happened to get a full mouthful, instead of just a bit. So her canines, went deep into the upper and lower parts of my hand, and her molars into the "meat" below my thumb. In both cases, all the way through to the tendons (but I was very lucky, no tendon damage). AS SOON AS SHE REALIZED SHE'D BITTEN ME SHE BACKED OFF., and I managed to grab the other with (bleeding badly, but still mostly functional) left hand. end of fight.

The moral of the story is this: Don't go hand-to-hand when breaking up a dog fight, unless you're prepared to get bit. I've broken up quite a few (not just my dogs), and I've only been bitten a couple times, and only badly that one time. But when they're in "fight mode" even the most well trained dog can be oblivious to humans, even the owner.

More on topic stuff to follow, but I want to read through, the whole thread, again, first.

P.S. Once again Q-Lock and I were typing at the same time!

 

[ilbob]

I am not afraid of well disciplined dogs of any size who are clearly under control of their owners. I am rightly concerned (as everyone should be) about a large breed dog known for ferocity and aggression that is out roaming around by itself. There is no way to tell by appearance whether the dog is friendly or vicious, or just scared because he is lost.

There are very good reasons why animal control officers take special precautions with stray pits and rotts regardless of what clueless owners might think.

 

[dfaugh]

ilbob,
Now that's a more reasonable response. While I'm not afraid of any dog, you should be cautious (the same as you might be with a stranger--situational awarness) with any strange dog, even smaller ones.

But

There is no way to tell by appearance whether the dog is friendly or vicious, or just scared because he is lost.

If you are talking general appearance you're correct. HOWEVER, you can tell an awful lot about what they're thinking, by reading body language.

For example, about once a month, we get a "Dog almost attacked me!" thread. Because, they were walking/riding a bike, or whatever, and a large dog came running at them, barking. First, if the dog didn't attack IMMEDIATELY, the odds are 200 to 1 that they will at all. (Jsut as and example, the dog I mentioned earlier, who died recently, and held multiple Schutzhund and AKC obedience titles, all before he was 2 year old!) would bark at EVERYONE, including me. It was simply his way of getting your attention. He was just a very vocal dog.) NOW, alot is up to you, and how you react. But the first step is reading body language. I'm gonna write the definitive "How to react/interact with dogs thread", but its off-topic for me to get into it here.

 

[ilbob]

I am used to barking dogs (I have had three beagles and they tend to be a little vocal). It is just a means of communication and is usually a pretty friendly sign. Snarling is not so good though.

If you feel the need to write a dog thread why not write one and post it somewhere else? Just keep in mind that any advice you give is a potential legal quagmire, especially if you claim some expertise.

 

[dfaugh]

If you feel the need to write a dog thread why not write one and post it somewhere else? Just keep in mind that any advice you give is a potential legal quagmire, especially if you claim some expertise.

Working on it now, but I want it to be concise and accurate. Its still gonna be rather lengthy. The expertise I claim is that I've worked with hundreds of dogs, including Shutzhund, police and personal protection dogs, of many different breeds, and more importantly trainers of all of these from all over the world. Several of the trainers I've worked with have gone to various World Championships, more than once.

Since I will be offering advice, and opinions, based on first hand knowledge, I'm not sure what kind of "legal quagmire" I might end up in. The advice I intend to give will be "what to do/what NOT to do" when confronted by a strange dog. What I can say is that it will be 99.99% more accurate advice that is usually given on the monthly "I was attacked by a dog!" threads.

 

[Drewcat]

Dfaugh,

I don't mean to bust your chops but you have some serious contradictions in your posts.

"I have 4 GSDs (5 until recently) right now and NONE of them can be allowed out together. They WILL fight, and they WILL inflict SERIOUS, or FATAL damage, and they WILL NOT stop until they've "won" or killed the opponent . (I've got the scars to prove it). EACH of them is a true "alpha" and won't tolerate another dog in "their" space."

Then:

"These dogs are dominant WITH OTHER DOGS. And NONE will start the fight, unless another dogs "challenges" their dominance. And, I can "call them off" easily, if need be, because they are TRAINED."

First, you can't let the dogs out together because they will attack each other and they won't stop until they "win" or kill the opponent. Then you say that your dogs will never start a fight and if they do you can stop it right away by "calling them off" and they will respond right away.

So which is it you can't trust your own dogs because they will immediatley attack each other or they never start a fight. Those are contradictory statements.

Can you immediately call them off or will they fight to the death (and you got bitten calling them off each other?)

Just rying to figure it out.

By the way, if your dogs are attacking each other (and they're all yours so YOUR dogs are instigating the fight) it is because they believe they are dominant. It is not everyone else in the worlds resposibility to establish dominance over your dog, or to learn to interpret their behavior to avoid instigating an attack.

Again I'm not trying to bust your chops and I'm sure you are serious about training and are likley good at it. It just seems like you have some wires crossed somewhere.

 

[odessastraight]

Two rushed me a couple of weeks ago

I had an incident with two large dogs (OK, I'm sorry for not being K9 PC, but they sure looked like Pit Bulls to me) 2 weeks ago. I had taken my car for new tires to a shop about a mile from my house and decided to walk home to wait for them to do the job. I was walking home along a county road and recalled that I had seen two Pit Bulls inside a fence, along this road, playing with a car tire like it was a chew toy. Just then I saw them, outside the fence, and closing in on me... fast. When I first saw them they were about 15 yards off and on a dead run straight at me. In a flash it came to me that I was probably going to get hurt by them. My brain also formed a plan in this flash...draw my snubby, fire left then right and then If I'd missed one fire one more time. That would leave me two rounds left in the revolver and in case I missed I'd use them to shoot the dog(s) off of me after they had me in their jaws. Eventhough I really believed that I was going to be hurt it was comforting to have a plan and I was confident that I would end up in better shape than the dogs.

Well, I had a grip on my CCW and without thinking about it (it wasn't in my plan) pointed my left hand at them and, in my best command voice, yelled "NO!". To my great surprize they stopped and looked around like they were confused about something. Heck, since "NO!" worked I decided to yell "Sit!"...and one dog did. The other dog just stood there. I commanded "Stay!" and backed across the road and walked on home (constantly looking over my shoulder).

Maybe those dogs just wanted to play. They weren't barking or snarling. I'm not an expert on dogs. I do know they certainly had me concerned for my safety and if they had not broken off their rush to me I would have fired on them.

Anyway, I don't know if I could have hit two fast moving dogs before they were on me, but at least I had a fighting chance with my CCW. God bless the USA and "shall issue ccw" states.