Yet another question about red dot and holographic sights

[Texfire]

Okay I've searched the forum for info on both red dot and holographic sights, but I think I'm more confused now then I was before...

I'm got an Ultimak picatinny mount on my AK47. For those who aren't familiar with it it's a replacement for the gas tube that clamps onto the barrel for stability. I'd like to buy a scope for it, but I'm not sure which one is right. I've previously installed a peep sight in place of the rear sight it came with, which helped but I've been thinking about getting a scope for it.

Here's some of my thoughts, questions and possible intended use:

-Needs an eye relief appropriate for being mounted in that location, a scout type scope?
-Has to be able to stand up to the recoil of being mounted on an AK, though I'm not sure how much stress that actually entails.
-Scope mount has to be picatinny? I understand that the keys on weaver aren't as wide as picatinny and can shift?
-I'm inclined towards one of the Holosights like the EO Tech, though the price is a little much for my budget given my total lack of experience with scopes.
-Anticipated use is quick target aquisition under 100 yards. If I get a red dot is magnification desirable or even appropriate?
-Possibly for use in 3-gun.
-Is it reasonable to use a cheap scope to test the setup before dropping alot on a good scope like an Aimpoint or EO Tech? If so which ones are 1/3 or less and not total junk?
-Batteries would be nice if I could use the same rechargeable AAs I use for my camera.

Tex

 

[Texfire]

Well I ended up getting a BSA 42mm Red Dot sight. There was one at my local shop, and the price was good enough that if I was wasting my money I wouldn't cry about it, but would give me a good idea if I really wanted a Red Dot on the AK. Mounted on the Ultimak picatinny rail just fine, looks very large hanging out there over the gas tube, but it's bright and very easy to look through.

One concern I have is the bottom of the tube at the mount obscures the iron sights, which were pretty low anyway. Since co-witnessing is out, when the battery dies then I'll either be using it as a really big peep sight or removing it.

I'd also like to get some flip up or see-through scope covers for it, but I'm a little confused about how large to get. Of course no one makes a cover for this specific scope so I'll have to buy a generic one the right size. Which leads to the question, what's the right size? Since it's a 42mm scope with a straight tube is 42mm the external diameter of the tube, or is it more arcane than that?

Tex

 

[Omnivore]

Here at UltiMAK we use both the EOTech holosight and the tubular type reflex sights (Aimpoint and Trijicon being the "gold standard") on AKs. Some American GIs and Iraqi Special Forces use the UltiMAK mount, and most of those seem to be using the EOTech.

My only beef with the EOTech is that it sits pretty high on the weapon, such that your cheek weld is significantly altered. The EOTech reticle is so terrific that this is considered a worthwhile trade-off for many shooters. We keep an EOTech permanently mounted on an in-house M1 Carbine and it is a dream.

The Aimpoint, and most other tube-shaped reflex sights can be mounted low enough to co witness the irons on an AK. Some of the BSAs and other Asian cheepos will not sit low enough to co witness. Co witnessing, while not a big deal to some people, has the added advantage of allowing you to use a much more standard cheek weld, since it means your reflex sight's viewing area overlaps your iron sight axis.

Eye relief is not an issue for 1x reflex sights or holosights, since they have what is called "unlimited eye relief". The forward position is actually preffered for them, because it maintains your full field of view when sighting with both eyes as intended.

If you want magnification, you will want a pistol scope on the UltiMAK mount, placed as low as it will go. In that case, we have had great results using a fixed power Leupold. We have a 4x here, but 2.5 or 3x would be better for the ranges you're shooting because it will be more forgiving in terms of eye relief and will give you faster target acquisition. Personnaly I like a 1x for its superior target acquisition speed. For the speed factor, the concept is being applied much more commonly in the U.S. military. We have used variable power pistol scopes on the AK for bench testing, but they are bigger, more complicated, and more importantly, they are heavier. "quick target aquisition under 100 yards" to me calls for a 1x sight unless your targets are extremely small. The ACOG 4x sights are the gold standard for designate marksmen. or for use whenever greater distances are anticipated. Magnification also serves the purpose of facilitating positive target identification.

A Picatinny rail will accept either a "Weaver" or Picatinny type rail squeezer equally well. While it is true that the Weaver type cross bolts are narrower, it matters not, since A) if you properly install the cross bolt all the way hard against the front of the cross slot, it cannot shift due to recoil, because it is already as far forward as it can go, and B) even the Picatinny cross bolts have some extra space between them and the walls of the cross slot on the rail, so its a matter of degree only. Keep in mind that the EOTech, for example, uses a small, round cross bolt and its main application is on the Picatinny rails of the M4 and other AR flat tops. It just means that the same sight will also work on a Weaver rail.

A cheap scope has alway been a dissapointment to us. Because you end up getting a nice one anyway why waste the money on the cheap one? Some people swear by them, buy I cannot understand why. They just aren't as good, and more likely to frustrate. Skip a couple nights out for dinner, etc., and you have saved enough for the price difference.

The EOTech can be had in AA battery models (512 and 552) so you can use rechargeables, but the nearly 50,000 hour life of the new Aimpoint's 1/3 N cell makes the issue pretty nearly moot. Also, you can use a Trijicon Tripower pretty much anytime outdoors without using its standby battery power, unless you're going to be shooting before dawn or after dusk, or unless you anticipate shooting indoors.

Some of the 100 to 150 dollar sights, like Tasco, or some of the Adcos, etc. work fine too, but I was advised long ago never to scrimp on optics and I've come to appreciate that advise.

 

[Omnivore]

Also see my article;
http://www.ultimak.com/UnderstandingE-Sights.htm

 

[Texfire]

Thanks for the reply Omnivore. I've mounted the Ultimak, and other than having to carve out a little bit of the handguard, it was a very painless install. I did end up getting one of the BSA 42mm red dots for about $40 and installed it. I figure I'm going to end up with an Aimpoint or EOTech, but for right now this will do for proof of concept.

However you are correct about it being too high to cowitness, however I find that I don't have to break my cheekweld by much to use it. I'm already leaning towards getting your triple rail handgaurd replacement as my Romanian one looks a little wierd now and I'd like to play with some different front handguard options.

Tex

 

[Texfire]

One more update. I went back to my shop and traded up the BSA 42mm RD to a BSA Precision 30mm RD, one major advantage to a local shop. It sits lower on the ultimak, which just barely lets me use my iron sights. It might get better when I go sight in the RD sight, as I think my peep sight has dropped. It fits the gun better, looks less like a tumor and more like a sight.

Tex

 

[jthuang]

I am running an Aimpoint Comp M-XD with the stock 30mm ring and it co-witnesses with the irons using an Ultimak. Rifle is a Choate stocked Maadi ARM.

I like the EOTech better (it's on my Bushmaster) but the Aimpoint just works well with the AK and Ultimak.

 

[RedAlert]

Thanks Omnivore

This is my first post and I found the info I needed via search.

I'm getting an EOTech 511 to mount on my Ruger Range Rifle, Mini-14. I had been wondering if I would use the Picatinny Rail mount from your company which mounts to the barrel and gas block, or get the mount sold by Accuracy Systems that mounts directly to the receiver.

The issue I was trying to resolve before buying either was which was best: Mount the Optic forward or mount it closer to my eye. Your comments indicate that these "Both eye open" sights work better a little further away from the eye than a conventional scope.

Co-location sight picture doesn't really matter to me in my intended use as a paper puncher or plinking rifle.

If I seem to be off-track with regards your comments, please feel free to correct me as I'd rather not spend more money to correct a mistake.

RDF

 

[Texfire]

I'm not Omnivore, but here's my take on it from the research I was doing.

Eye relief doesn't matter nearly as much on red dot sights, unlike telescopic scopes, as the entire area behind the sight is in focus no matter how close or far you mount it. Using the two eyes open method the field of view you get through the sight is not nearly as important. You can even leave the front cap on a red dot scope and still aim. Your non dominant eye will see the target and your dominant eye will superimpose the red dot on top of it. I understand it's a technique some use if shooting towards the sun to make the dot brighter.

It would seem to me that the best mount is one that allows you to use your sight while maintaining a good cheekweld for replicable accuracy. Since iron sights are designed with that in mind, a red dot sight that is low enough to cowitness allows you to maintain that cheekweld, as well as transition quickly if the sight malfunctions.

I don't know about the Accuracy Systems mount, but the Ultimak mount attaches to the barrel, so as the barrel heats and cools, the mount moves with it, maintaining zero.

Tex

 

[Omnivore]

Texfire pretty well nailed it.

And eye relief doesn't matter at all with a 1x reflex or holographic sight, except that you maintain your full natural field of view if the sight is farther forward, rather than having it within an inch or two of your eye. In the latter case, there will be a small blind spot with most sights. You can test this yourself by looking through the optic, both eyes open, and acquiring a sight picture as you sweep accross your environment side to side (while observing the rules of gun safety of course). Pick a small stationary object and see if you can make it dissapear. If the sight is too close, you will find that blind spot. If its farther forward on the rifle, you wont.

 

[jimk66]

Eo-Tech

Hi! New to the forum and find it very informitive.
I have a new Bushmaster AR15 A3 with a 4x Hakko mounted on it and out in the bright sun light I found the illuminated mil dot very hard to see. I Wish they offered a polarizing lens for it so I could see if that would help. Any ideas?
Is the EoTech any better in the bright sun?
The little outdoor range I attend only goes out to 100 meter's so most of my shooting will within that range. They have rifle and handgun matches a couple times a month with pop-ups from 25-100 meters and 10 stations 5shots each all timed. It looks like fun if you can get the right setup and I'm anxious to give it a try, but I don't think so with this little Hakko scope.
I have an Ultradot 4dot on my MKIII SS Hunter 6 7/8" brl. I shoot in the rimfire competition and have a blast, but the Ultradot came with a polarizing filter that makes all the difference in the world.
Any suggeston on this brightness issue would be welcome.
PS: Likt some of the other guy's......I don't have much experience with scopes either....Really not much with rifles to boot.

Thanks,
Jim

 

[MisterPX]

A good stepping stone between the $30 BSa and the $400 Aimpoint is the $120 SPOT.