I have seen some real "gaming" creeping into idpa the last few years. With a "miss" as five points down, or 2 1/2 seconds, it is possible for some people to "run fast" and still be in the top 10. I know that on the street, I'm responsible in a court of law for every shot fired. I'd like to see a miss changed to 20 points down, and a hit on a non-threat to 60 points down. Myself, at my age, I'll just take my time and go for accuracy. What have you been seeing, just curious?
You can "miss" fast enough to win.
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I don't see it much in IDPA but I used to see it a lot in USPSA. One master class shooter would get out his calculator before every stage and figure out how many targets he could miss and still win. That's probably one of the big reasons I switched to IDPA.
If you want to be truly tactically correct 
, shouldn't a hit on a non-threat automatically zero your score?
, shouldn't a hit on a non-threat automatically zero your score? A miss isn't just 2.5 secs down, you also have to consider the time it takes to fire the shots that bumps it up to about 3 seconds. don't know about where you shoot but three seconds (assuming the rest of the stage is clean) is a heck of a lot of time. At my last match it was the difference between 1st and 5th on a lot of stages. If I loose three seconds on a stage in addition to any other points down it is a good bet I won't win that stage, if someone is good enough to shoot three seconds faster, then he probably is good enough to shoot faster hit the target and still beat the snot out of everyone else there.
Remember, this is a game, it has to be fun first and foremost. One screwup and you are out of contention is not fun.
Remember, this is a game, it has to be fun first and foremost. One screwup and you are out of contention is not fun.
I think it is fine the way it is. 2.5 seconds, plus the time it took to miss the target is a big lump of time. Plus you are forgetting that it is usually more than one hit per target, 2.5 x 2 (or 3) PLUS you forgot about the Failure to Neatralize penalty (another 5 seconds).
The problem with making misses and no-shoots worth extreme amounts of points is that it is going to totally punish the new shooters who are just starting out. The gamer types you are worried about are going to game it no matter what, that is the nature of the beast. The people more likely to hit a no-shoot are the new folks, who if they don't have fun, ain't going to come back.
If you have a stage that can be won by missing, then you have a case of bad stage design. I haven't fallen into that trap on pistol stages, but I have however designed rifle stages in 3 gun with some really difficult long range targets where people have come out ahead by missing on purpose. I've learned my lesson and designed around that.
The problem with making misses and no-shoots worth extreme amounts of points is that it is going to totally punish the new shooters who are just starting out. The gamer types you are worried about are going to game it no matter what, that is the nature of the beast. The people more likely to hit a no-shoot are the new folks, who if they don't have fun, ain't going to come back.
If you have a stage that can be won by missing, then you have a case of bad stage design. I haven't fallen into that trap on pistol stages, but I have however designed rifle stages in 3 gun with some really difficult long range targets where people have come out ahead by missing on purpose. I've learned my lesson and designed around that.
I do not shoot hand gun competition but I would think that anything within the rules is fair and if a person uses that to their advantage then they are a step ahead.
I also think about it in some ways like in the spirit of the rules that some things are in a grey area and most folks like me would not use it or like sandbagging by not shooting up to your potential both are bad in my book.
I have seen guys that did not want their scores up blow out shots you know they did on purpose.
I think you always take every shoot like a match upon its self and make it the best shot you can make or you might never know how good you might get.
I also think about it in some ways like in the spirit of the rules that some things are in a grey area and most folks like me would not use it or like sandbagging by not shooting up to your potential both are bad in my book.
I have seen guys that did not want their scores up blow out shots you know they did on purpose.
I think you always take every shoot like a match upon its self and make it the best shot you can make or you might never know how good you might get.
I recently shot at the range with a guy that was practicing for IDPA. He was shooting very fast, but was grouping like a cyl. choke shot gun at 50 yards. I asked him why he did not slow down and make all of the shots count??? He claimed that you have to hit fast to win, I asked why he was not hitting where he aimed............................
To each there own, in a couple of weeks I'll shoot my frst match, I might be the slowest, but I'll try damn hard to hit the target.
Tony
To each there own, in a couple of weeks I'll shoot my frst match, I might be the slowest, but I'll try damn hard to hit the target.
Tony
I love to compete
That said, I am not able to move as fast as most due to bad knees. I gave up long ago trying to compete with the runners who spray and pray IDPA and USPSA. It is not worth it to me.
The point down system is fair and gamers will use it to their advantage no matter what is done. The object of the game is to go out, have a good time, be safe, practice your skills, and gain some experience. If you do that you have won. If you can not enjoy where you are shooting it is time to go somewhere else. Life is too short.
Regards,
That said, I am not able to move as fast as most due to bad knees. I gave up long ago trying to compete with the runners who spray and pray IDPA and USPSA. It is not worth it to me.
The point down system is fair and gamers will use it to their advantage no matter what is done. The object of the game is to go out, have a good time, be safe, practice your skills, and gain some experience. If you do that you have won. If you can not enjoy where you are shooting it is time to go somewhere else. Life is too short.
Regards,
If you're worried about not getting into the "top 10" because "gamers" are using the points system to their advantage, maybe you're just as much of a "gamer".
"Gamers" compete against each other. Compete against yourself. Forget the gamers, if they bother you that much.
"Gamers" compete against each other. Compete against yourself. Forget the gamers, if they bother you that much.
"You can't miss fast enough to win" comes from people and games that place a value on accuracy. Other games place more value on speed or other aspects. You have to play by the rules to win, but if winning isn't your goal, play SAFELY by your own rules. It is shooting, don't sweat the little stuff.
Just my .02
SRM
Just my .02
SRM
Monster:
Look at 3p or 4p rifle, highpower, palma, bullseye pistol, or silhouette. Some have "speed" phases, but precision and accuracy is still paramount. One miss in the rapidfire stages and you are an "also ran". "Action" games are more lenient on where the shot goes (usually bigger targets), and an "oops" doesn't mean that you should pack your bags. Which is really reassuring for guys like me who can't hit a barn from the inside....
SRM
Look at 3p or 4p rifle, highpower, palma, bullseye pistol, or silhouette. Some have "speed" phases, but precision and accuracy is still paramount. One miss in the rapidfire stages and you are an "also ran". "Action" games are more lenient on where the shot goes (usually bigger targets), and an "oops" doesn't mean that you should pack your bags. Which is really reassuring for guys like me who can't hit a barn from the inside....
SRM
Ok, it is more than run fast. It is think fast, run fast, shoot fast. It takes a lot of work to get good, hell, it takes a lot of work to be me and still be bad. Look at it this way, if a gamer misses and still beats you he would have only beat you so much worse had he hit. Top shooters want 90-95% of available points to win. I shot a 300 rd match with no misses, 30 some Cs and 1 D. I was trying to be fast, but if Sevigny is at the same match all your haste looks like peeing in the breeze on the scoresheet.
Now I understand you want a game that makes misses hurt more so it is "real life". Well, it's a game. Taking your time and going for accuracy sounds like Bullseye. IDPA could increase their miss penalty but to what effect? Right now the penalty for running by a target without engaging is so severe in IDPA or USPSA that it is almost never an advantage. There may be a few 10 factor USPSA stages out there with one 40yd target thrown in where a "gamer" would hose one shot towards the long target to avoid the FTE and take the miss, but that is a rare situation.
One cute rule of IDPA is that only one hit on a nonthreat is assessed. Now couple that with the shoot through rule whereas in USPSA all targets are deemed impeneterable. I have seen a stage or two where a non-threat flopped up in front of a threat leaving only the head exposed. With a course of fire calling for four shots to the threat at a point where it would be advantageous to be moving to the next firing point the obvious solution would be to dump four rounds quickly through the good guy and move on, taking the penalty. I shot within the spirit of the course design, but just another example of if you make a rule someone will exploit any angle around it until you make another rule against that.
Now back to missing fast enough to win. I don't see too much steel in IDPA. Get out and shoot some action pistol that has 20 pieces of steel in a stage and you will learn all about missing fast enough to not win.
misses and still beats you he would have only beat you so much worse had he hit. Top shooters want 90-95% of available points to win. I shot a 300 rd match with no misses, 30 some Cs and 1 D. I was trying to be fast, but if Sevigny is at the same match all your haste looks like peeing in the breeze on the scoresheet. Now I understand you want a game that makes misses hurt more so it is "real life". Well, it's a game. Taking your time and going for accuracy sounds like Bullseye. IDPA could increase their miss penalty but to what effect? Right now the penalty for running by a target without engaging is so severe in IDPA or USPSA that it is almost never an advantage. There may be a few 10 factor USPSA stages out there with one 40yd target thrown in where a "gamer" would hose one shot towards the long target to avoid the FTE and take the miss, but that is a rare situation.
One cute rule of IDPA is that only one hit on a nonthreat is assessed. Now couple that with the shoot through rule whereas in USPSA all targets are deemed impeneterable. I have seen a stage or two where a non-threat flopped up in front of a threat leaving only the head exposed. With a course of fire calling for four shots to the threat at a point where it would be advantageous to be moving to the next firing point the obvious solution would be to dump four rounds quickly through the good guy and move on, taking the penalty. I shot within the spirit of the course design, but just another example of if you make a rule someone will exploit any angle around it until you make another rule against that.
Now back to missing fast enough to win. I don't see too much steel in IDPA. Get out and shoot some action pistol that has 20 pieces of steel in a stage and you will learn all about missing fast enough to not win.
"You can't miss fast enough to win" comes from people and games that place a value on accuracy."
The game of life and death!
So...if you are competing to win the prize...by all means...work within the rules to have the highest score....
Just don't fool yourselves...it is ONLY a game
The bad guys will not be that impressed with your speed
In the real world only hits count...missers are losers
The game of life and death!
So...if you are competing to win the prize...by all means...work within the rules to have the highest score....
Just don't fool yourselves...it is ONLY a game
The bad guys will not be that impressed with your speed
In the real world only hits count...missers are losers
They will be for a short time if you hit them fast. Remember that in the little game of life the bad guys are allowed to get hits too, and they count against you, much like the time counts against you in IDPA while you are dithering around rolling on the ground and looking tactical. They won't be impressed with how fast you miss, nor will they be impressed with how tactical and accurate you are if they have already shot your butt full of holes before you cleared holster.
I can never understand the assumption that fast shooters cannot shoot accurately. I see plenty of new shooters hose at a constant fast cadence, but those who have practiced, see what they need to and get hits quickly. Don't like it, practice more. Most all of those misses you see by fast guys are not planned, they want every A or 0. All you folks who claim to be slow and accurate never miss? I'll tell you now I don't believe you. If you are mad at a fast guy who happened to miss and still smoke you that's not because he is a gamer, it is because you haven't gotten good enough to do anything about it.
Speed in a fight is just as much an absolute as getting hits.
You can miss all you want but on a properly designed stage, those misses and subsequent FTNs will come back and haunt you. Some folks don't score right to start with and if you fail to factor in FTNs, you aren't scoring the stage right.
That said, I watched Dave Sevigny(sp?) clear a stage at the FL state match in March in 16 seconds. Took me close to 40. He shot every target, including non-threats and still beat me by a mile. No matter what anyone says, there is a small advantage to speed over accuracy in IDPA. If you can get both down, then you are really rockin'.
Greg
That said, I watched Dave Sevigny(sp?) clear a stage at the FL state match in March in 16 seconds. Took me close to 40. He shot every target, including non-threats and still beat me by a mile. No matter what anyone says, there is a small advantage to speed over accuracy in IDPA. If you can get both down, then you are really rockin'.
Greg
My original post asked,"Just curious, what have you been seeing?" I haven't seen a lively discourse in this section for a while. The two points I liked best were, and need to make "new" shooters welcome, and a "look at" course design. Told an RO once, "I had just see the movie, Speed, and that was on my mind(Shoot the hostage.) when I hit the non-threat, but got the shoot thru." Stay safe, shoot well, have fun.I am not going to beat this dead horse anymore than it has been already. I would pretty much post the same thing Navy Joe did, I agree with him on this.
For the record I understand what Texas Bob was getting at, you can never stop the "gamers" in life, just let them do there thing so the rest of us can have fun.
I have never won an IPSC or IDPA match with misses unless everyone else had them too. Even more so in IDPA, I may have been down a few points but my wins have been clean other then that.
For the record I understand what Texas Bob was getting at, you can never stop the "gamers" in life, just let them do there thing so the rest of us can have fun.
I have never won an IPSC or IDPA match with misses unless everyone else had them too. Even more so in IDPA, I may have been down a few points but my wins have been clean other then that.
Actually I would say there is a small advantage to accuracy in IDPA, in IPSC there may be a small advantage to speed, but IDPA has pretty severe penalties for misses (.5, 1 and 1.5 seconds for hits outside the O zone)
I only shoot USPSA but so far I haven't seen anyone intentionaly bypass a target. Folks ... its a lot of points. Even assuming you take a wild shot to avoid a FTE penalty you are talking about 30 points down (2 Mikes = 20, and you don't get the 10 from the potential 2A). There is almost no way that makes sense. I suppose if your course of fire takes 50sec and you could shave 20 it might be worth it but when was the last time you saw a course that badly designed?
You can however miss fast enough if you mean hosing a stage and hoping for the best. You may take C's and D's and some people do consider those to be almost misses, and the odd miss and still win because you moved fast enough to create a shock wave. But that doesn't work when you have high end shooters in the match because they can move that fast and hit well. The local matches I shoot attract GM's and M's. Under what strange moon will anyone be able to miss fast enough to beat JJ Racazza?
I doubt that anyone that plans on missing will get far in these games.
Loch
You can however miss fast enough if you mean hosing a stage and hoping for the best. You may take C's and D's and some people do consider those to be almost misses, and the odd miss and still win because you moved fast enough to create a shock wave. But that doesn't work when you have high end shooters in the match because they can move that fast and hit well. The local matches I shoot attract GM's and M's. Under what strange moon will anyone be able to miss fast enough to beat JJ Racazza?
I doubt that anyone that plans on missing will get far in these games.
Loch
I think it ends up being that simple.
At my club, if you miss, you lose...which I do regularly
...especially with that infernal swinger in the House Stage .Safe shooting,
CZ52'
Faustulus said "....but IDPA has pretty severe penalties for misses (.5, 1 and 1.5 seconds for hits outside the O zone."
I presume you meant .5, 1.5, and 2.5 seconds.
I presume you meant .5, 1.5, and 2.5 seconds.
When I was shooting a lot of action gun games I always kept in mind Cooper's famous saying that if you were putting all the shots in the x that you were shootingtoo slowly. Of course, I took action pistol the way he did, as a way to train to save my life. In that respect, you need to make center hits, but not necessarily off of them on top of another. If all your hits are within a pie-plate at 25 yards, and you are blindingly fast, you are more than likely a better defensive shooter than someone that takes three times as long and puts them in a Dixie cup.
If you have distance as an ally (several hundred yards) you have the luxury of taking that one perfect shot...but then that is rarely defensive.
If you have distance as an ally (several hundred yards) you have the luxury of taking that one perfect shot...but then that is rarely defensive.
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