You do what to your 9mm brass? no way

[rsrocket1]

Out of about 40k reloads of 40 S&W, and a few k 45ACP, never had a case length problem.
Out of about 5k 9mm cases, I did run across at least 2 that were too long for the chamber of my gun. They didn't pass the plunk test which I do with every round I load. I was surprised that the cases were too long even though they really were 9x19 cases. I probably should have kept the cases for further study, but I simply disassembled the round, stepped on the case to make sure I wouldn't reload it and dumped it in the brass recycling bucket.

 

[Rule3]

I've been loading my 9mm brass for years and never needed to trim the cases! You do what to your cases??????
Just for laughs, I have 400 cases (mostly range brass) ready to load and I decided to run all of them through my caliper set at .754". It was just something I could do while watching tv on a cold winter night. Son of a gun! I found 10 of them that were right at the magic number.
I figured my gentle plinking rounds would never damage the brass as I have never had one split or act up on me.
Stirring around my coffee can full of Lee cutter guages I found a 9mm tool and trimmed the 10 baddies. This sure snuck up on me! Lesson learned about being careful of case length.

I do not understand? If they were at the "magic number" of .754 what is there to trim? That is the SAMMI spec for the 9mm.

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Pistol/9mm Luger - 9mm Luger +P.pdf

 

[murf]

and the saami spec for the barrel chamber is .754" minimum, .776" maximum. if your pistol barrel is cut to minimum spec, the out-of-spec (long) case can jam against the end of the chamber and cause problems. the key is to make sure the case is shorter than the chamber.

this is a big issue in high pressure (50,000 psi+) rifle rounds because the brass stretches and doesn't come back all the way. pistol rounds are subject to less pressure and return to the same length when stretched.

this is why i always check case length when reloading rifle rounds. pistol rounds - not so much. revolver rounds, on the other hand, get trimmed so the crimp is uniform throughout.

murf

 

[tcoz]

For those people who handload .30 carbine, do you find that the cases lengthen much and have to be trimmed very often? I may be buying an M1 Carbine and I was thinking the case was straight walled like a pistol case but I think it's slightly tapered. I did find out they do have to be trimmed.

 

[ReloaderFred]

The .30 Carbine case grows with each firing/sizing. I hate trimming the little suckers, but do it out of necessity. In fact, I just spent the money for a trim die for the .30 Carbine from CH-4D for my Dillon 1200 trimmer, since that should speed it up considerably. The die wasn't cheap, but at my age you don't want to waste anymore time than necessary on mundane tasks, and I've got a bunch of .30 Carbine brass that needs trimming.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Rule3]

Well the thread was on 9mm but now for 30 carbine, it spaces on the case mouth not the shoulder and as Fred stated they do grow, so trimming those is necessary.

Never touched a 9mm. 40 or 45 as far as length, With buckets and buckets of those, who has time to even check them, let alone trim them?

 

[otisrush]

This whole topic is making me REALLY curious.

Hopefully soon after Thanksgiving I'll have some time to do an experiment and analysis: compare lengths of some cases before sizing and after - see on a % basis how much they grow. And do this across bottleneck and straight walled cases - to see how they differ.

Unless someone else has done this I'll look to assemble some data. I'll start another thread when I've got some.

Great discussion here! Thanks all for the comments.

OR

 

[Dudedog]

Trim 9mm brass....nope, measure nope
toss split case necks or ones with loose primer pockets yes
otherwise clean, load, shot, repeat.

 

[jmorris]

Never touched a 9mm. 40 or 45 as far as length, With buckets and buckets of those, who has time to even check them, let alone trim them?

While I don't trim them I do case gauge every round of my match ammunition.

 

[jmorris]

Hopefully soon after Thanksgiving I'll have some time to do an experiment and analysis: compare lengths of some cases before sizing and after

Just measured a dozen 45 acp mixed cases before and after sizing they grew .002-.006" after being sized most were between .003-.005". All were under max length and only one was at trim length, the rest were all shorter.

I might mess with it some more later to satisfy my curiosity but while the cases grew up to .006" after resizing they were all within .003" of one another in OAL. My first guess would be the one that grew the most was fired in a pistol with a larger chamber that the ones that grew less.

In any case (no pun intended) even if I did want to trim and had a trimmer set up to cut to .893" it would have not cut any of the dozen cases I just resized.

 

[mdi]

Well, a lot of fellers don't trim handgun brass, and some do, and we've gotten "Celebrity Opinions" too. I came to the conclusion years ago that if it don't hurt anything, become dangerous, there isn't much wrong with most "unnecessary wastes of time" processes. If you want to trim .38 Special (or any other handgun cases), fine, trim away. If you don't wanna trim, fine, then don't. Some reloaders do "unnecessary, wastes of time" on their handloads just to be in contact with their hobby. Just to hang out in their gun room doing "gun stuff" (I do this often as I have a whole lot more "reloading time" than I have "shooting time"). The Reloading Police ain't gonna kick down your door and confiscate your "wrongly assembled" handloads. It's your ammo, your guns, and your time and if you want to paint wee happy faces on the case heads of your personal handloaded ammo, do it!

 

[Jim Watson]

Like Jmorris, I gauge IDPA match ammo in mixed brass and have not found an over length 9mm yet.

I DID once turn up a very few long .45 ACPs. They were all Hornady headstamp in range pickup. I figure it was all out of one off-spec box. Not a lot too long, they probably shot ok in a stock gun, but they would not gauge or chamber in a fitted barrel.

 

[snuffy]

I, like most others, don't trim, measure or otherwise worry about semi-auto PISTOL cases. One exception would be 357 sig where it's critical to NOT be too short!

Now revolver cases are an entirely different animal. For those, I haven't trimmed or even checked 38's, .357, 44 mag, or 45 colt. Well not for a very long time anyway. Back in the mid seventies, I was heavily involved in the handgun silhouette game. I was using heavy loads in .357 magnum, 45 colt,(Ruger blackhawk), and 44 mag SBH, I was after extreme accuracy, I didn't want the ammo to be why I missed a ram @ 200 meters.

Case length would grow at the top loads I was using. Not always the same amount. To get a good solid roll crimp you needed cases to be the same length and have a square mouth. Trimming was mandatory.

My newest toy in the arsenal is my 500 S&W wrist breaker. It too has to be trimmed to achieve the needed heavy crimp. I use the lee system for all my trimming it's fast and accurate.

 

[HOWARD J]

In 40 years the only brass ( for pistol) I trimmed is 30 carbine Ruger Blackhawk
I have asked Wilson to make a proper case gage for 30 carbine----they said
there is no need to have one.
SO--I use the revolver out of the Blackhawk---works for rifle also
I have read the mans book----it is a good one

 

[Hondo 60]

Haven't even measured a pistol case in YEARS, much less actually trim 'em.

Handgun ammo is MUCH more forgiving than rifle ammo.

I ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS measure & trim rifle cases, never handgun cases.
(doesn't matter if it's for a revolver or a semi-auto)

Just my 2¢ YMMV

 

[41 Mag]

What difference would it make in terms of practical accuracy at the distance of 10yds and under that most individuals shoot at?

Trim or don't trim, it's up to the individual. Mentioned above is a quote that is just about as optional. I see many pictures of targets bragging on the great group shot by X gun with Y ammo at 5, 7 or 10 yards. I'm not saying that these aren't great groups shot by the individual but personally I wouldn't post some of them up as good shot at 50yds.

If you look at the rifle crowd they trim sort by weight and do all sorts of things to get their groups into as close to one hole as possible. Why, and it has already been touch upon above, should the same attention be paid to revolver or pistol rounds? Well in most circles a handgun simply isn't capable of shooting one hole groups, so why bother with exerting any more time than necessary to the production of the ammo, than to load it and shoot it, after all it wasn't designed to shoot a small group in the first place. Right?

I am not in any way for or fashion an excellent shooter, but I DO want the best that each of my firearms will deliver each time I pull the trigger. If that means trimming so be it. I so far have not trimmed the first piece of 9mm brass, but then again I have only had a 9mm pistol for about 8 months or so, and have yet to shoot up the initial ammo I loaded and purchased for it to see how it does. Just haven't had time. With my 45 ACP however I do know that it shoots its best with brass trimmed to .895 which is about the middle of the road. Will it shoot good with untrimmed cases, sure it will, but not quite as good. Case length determines pressure and the more equal that is, usually the more consistent the groups are. Right, wrong, or indifferent, it does make a difference. Groups at 5,7 or 10yds are fine for some, but I shoot at 10,15,20, 25, 50, or even 75-100 with my revolvers. Again I do not shoot great groups by my own standards or even half the shooters here, but I do take pride in hitting what I am aiming at when I draw down to do so.

All of my revolver brass is trimmed to equal length and matched by brand as is 95% of my pistol brass. It is simply something I do for no other reason than in my own peace of mind to make sure that things are as consistent as I can make it. I just feel that if I am taking the time to assemble the ammo myself in the first place, why not make it the best that I can from the ground up, or I might as well just by the cheapest crap on the market and be done with it.

Granted with range brass, or brass I have purchased as once fired, I do not get overly into the details as it is mostly used in places that I cannot recover it anyway. I do however still sort by brand, but in this particular instance the loads are used for trigger time and not considered being used in a possible life or death situation like most of the ammo I load. Most of it is either for hunting or SD, in either case I want to have the best I can when or if the time arises, and I practice with what I use the most.

 

[lmstncwby]

Actually, I was just digging through my immense pile of published reloading material, and I realized the book of Mr. George C. Nonte, Jr." that I have, is tilted "" Basic Handloading". I have the 9th printing, 1984.

And indeed everyone is entitled to their option, that said, I still contend that George C. Nonte, Jr.'s "Basic Handloading" is an excellent source for a more in depth look at the hobby. He covers so many different aspects of the hobby, and manages to do so in less than 200 pages, and at a great deal less expense than the big boys did back in the day. I'm not bashing Speer, Hornady, Sierra or anyone else for that matter, heck, I cut my teeth on the Speer #10, and it was well worth every penny I spent on it. I'm just saying, that for the money, "Basic Handloading" had a lot of very good information for that time line.

As for trimming handgun brass, ya, I'm certainly OCD, but when it pertains to trimming, that has more to do with my fanatical need to maintain specifications, and even more so when it concerns reloading. I take real pleasure in all aspects and details of this hobby, therefore I indulge each detailed step with complete and total interest, and not with drudgery.

GS

I couldn't agree more! When I was a teenager, I picked up a summer job in a machine shop hobbing gears. Those old boys sure showed this whippersnapper a thing or two!! I was just starting out in reloading and this job taught me attention to detail, and the difference between accuracy and precision. I used to religiously check the length of my pistol rounds until I realized it was largely a waste of time. A Lee case length trimmer is all I use now to check (when I get real anal), but I seldom see any sort of case length issues in my pistol brass. I might check once every few years. Maybe. Now, primer pockets, that's another matter altogether!!

 

[Swampman]

I trim all my Winchester headstamp 9mm Luger brass to .707" without fail.
But that's only because I convert them to 9mm Makarov.

I, like most others, don't trim, measure or otherwise worry about semi-auto PISTOL cases. One exception would be 357 sig where it's critical to NOT be too short!

Why is that?

Back in the 90's when .357 SIG brass was a rare commodity, I used to load 95 percent of my .357 SIG ammunition into reformed .40 S&W brass. The resulting cases were way too short, but headspaced off the shoulder with no problems. The rounds were as reliable as my current loads using proper .357 SIG cases and bullets. They fed and fired with no issues.

It was hard to find bullets that were properly configured for the SIG back then as well, so I was mostly shooting long ogived bullets meant for the 9mm Luger. The shorter case necks actually helped in getting a good crimp since the case mouth was moved further back where the 9mm ogives were wider and closer to parallel. To prevent bullet setback, I used highly compressed powder charges.

 

[KB0VSO]

I've been loading my 9mm brass for years and never needed to trim the cases! You do what to your cases??????
Just for laughs, I have 400 cases (mostly range brass) ready to load and I decided to run all of them through my caliper set at .754". It was just something I could do while watching tv on a cold winter night. Son of a gun! I found 10 of them that were right at the magic number.
I figured my gentle plinking rounds would never damage the brass as I have never had one split or act up on me.
Stirring around my coffee can full of Lee cutter guages I found a 9mm tool and trimmed the 10 baddies. This sure snuck up on me! Lesson learned about being careful of case length.

Ok I will try to explain it the best I can.
I was reloading 9mm range brass and the COL was not the same on all of them.
I also checked the length of the brass and found as you did a wide variation in the length.
Now I read the load manual for 9mm
The first thing I note was they listed a brass length for the bullet I was loading.
Ok I thought if the brass length is not the same that must be why the COL is not the same. Some more research proved me right. 9mm is straight walled brass and when it is put in the seating die the stop for it is at the front of the brass not the base. the longer the brass the longer the COL. Tale a close look at the inside of your seating die you can see the stop.

Larry
Northern Minnesota USA

 

[ReloaderFred]

You must set up your dies differently than I do, since the seating depth on my setup is the fixed distance between the place on the shell holder the case rests on and the lowest contact point for the tip of the bullet on the seating stem when the press ram is raised to it's highest position. That's a set distance, no matter what the length of the brass.

I make my seating stems match the contour of the bullet I'm loading, so I know for sure how deep I'm going to seat that bullet. I'm talking about 9x19 in particular here, but it pertains to all my handgun rounds. Rifle seating stems are a different matter, so I'm restricting this explanation to the handgun rounds only.

The step you're seeing inside your seating die is the crimp ring. It's not a stop step, like in a chamber (headspace). I also don't seat and crimp in the same die. All my rounds are crimped separately, which is my choice.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[WestKentucky]

Haha. Yeah you gotta watch that.

I won't be trimming or measuring any of my 9mm brass............or any other pistol caliber either.



Exactly what lesson did we learn?
What would have happened had you loaded and fired them?

Loaded and fired? Wouldn't a long case simply not chamber far enough and bind up the gun with shell rammed into the chamber on one end and the extractor claw on case at the other? I do understand that we are talking a few thousandths here and it could easily chamber and fire fine, but I don't see any safety issue provided the gun locks up properly and fires. The safety issue I see potential for would be a well worn gun only slightly out of battery still allowing a primer strike, but those guns should be caught and repaired during periodic safety inspections of your weapon right? I mean nobody just assumes their guns are good to run forever until they fail right?

 

[KB0VSO]

Belive none of what you hear and have of what you see

The below information is from one book/one Caliber for 9mm Luger

Page: 1 Hornady Bullets Last line “Use no or little crimping when reloading 9mm since it headspaces on the mouth of the case.”
“Case trim length: .744”

Page 17 Speer: “The 9mm headspaces on the case mouth so taper crimping is required”
“trim to length: .744”

Accurate Powder: Trim to .744”
Hodgdon powder: Trim to .750”

As with a lot of information on reloading it is confusing be it pistol or rifle.

Speer and Hornday as you can see above agree on trim length and headspace but not on weather crimping is needed.

The trim length and Col the Mfg listed is what they used to generate the loads they list.

Weather range pickup or new brass it would be wise to check the length and trim it if needed. After that you may never have to trim it again.

I have selected Longshot because it has a 1 grain between starting and max.
All the other powders listed as little as .4 grains

Larry
Northern Minnesota USA

 

[Fishslayer]

Thx Fred. Your explanation makes sense. But I don't understand why the same scenario isn't an issue for straight walled cartridges.

Thx.

It's in how the case headspaces. Rimless pistol cases headspace on the case mouth. If the case is a tad long it's no big deal. The bottleneck rifle case headspaces on the shoulder. This is what lets the case mouth jam into the leade.

I sort all my pistol brass by headstamp but that's because I've found life is easier when you load several different types & weights of bullets. Different headstamps have different wall thickness & lead bullets generally run .001" bigger than jacketed. I never trim pistol brass though. I do trim revolver brass because it's easier to get a consistent roll crimp.

 

[Sudden Impact]

Loading since 1967 and have never had a problem.

Annealed cases when needed but never trimmed a pistol case.

But you all feel free to add an extra step if you like.