You shouldn't have a gun

Status
Not open for further replies.

ZeSpectre

Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Messages
5,502
Location
Deep in the valley
"you shouldn't have a gun, nobody should have a gun"

It was the standard line on a blog I was reading. Yup, the same old thing. Then it occurred to me that what this person was really saying was "I don’t have a gun so you shouldn’t either”!

In other words what this person seemed to be demonstrating was the fear of being hopelessly outmatched. A few gentle probing questions seemed to verify that this was an underlying theme for this person so I posed them the following question.

If all guns were to magically vanish do you think you'd be against anyone owning swords?" The response was, predictably, Yes. This person then started on a rant about how swords and -all- weapons were just used to overpower others.

So I asked about fists. I said fists could be a weapon and a bigger, stronger, person could certainly overpower a smaller or weaker person. The response came back "well then we'd have to find a way to stop them from doing that, teach them from childhood that they aren't allowed to do that <commit violence>" (I'm condensing a long rant on family values and childhood training here).

So finally I said, "so what you really want is for life to somehow be arranged so that nobody is stronger, faster, or in any way able to overmatch you?"

KABOOOMMMMM! Instant explosion into vitrol, cursing, and generally vile behavior. Wow I guess I really hit right on the mark with that one. :rolleyes:
 
You're such a meany. Making him listen to reason like that. You didn't happen to be the antagonist in Dante's Inferno, did you? :evil:
 
KABOOOMMMMM! Instant explosion into vitrol, cursing, and generally vile behavior. Wow I guess I really hit right on the mark with that one.

Yep, you hit it right there. Pierced the armor too and exploded right in the boiler and coal room.
 
Beautiful!!!! Good going and maybe, just maybe some good will come of it someday.

Even though said individual seems to have long ago lept from the cliffs of reason to the warm seas of bliss.
 
Even though said individual seems to have long ago lept from the cliffs of reason to the warm seas of bliss.

Well yes, arguing with that person was like teaching a pig to sing, but the point is that there were a lot of OTHER folks onboard as well and hopefully my points weren't lost on at least some of them.

(That's -my- personal fantasy <grin>)
 
You attempted to re-wire their brain with logic which subsequently caused a catastrophic short circuit.

Good work. ;)
 
"well then we'd have to find a way to stop them from doing that, teach them from childhood that they aren't allowed to do that <commit violence>"

Aren't most of us are taught that anyway? The VAST majority of us don't use our guns (or any other weapons) to commit violence or crime.

jm
 
Once everyone accepts that life isn't fair, the world will be a better place. There will always be someone stronger, smarter, better looking, richer, etc., than you.
It is great (if incredibly naive) to want a violence free world where everyone is equal. It is a lot smarter to be prepared to live in the world as it actually is.
 
ZeSpectre you've just hit on the entire problem with all the Antigunners and DoGooders of the world , they just wont/can't accept reality .

It could be because they're cowards who can't muster the guts to protect themselves or a mental defect , either way the end is the same , they are scared .

The are so scared they can't even see that the gun or sword when wielded by a moral person is a source of justice and protection not only for the person with it but society as a whole .

As long as man and animal have existed the strong have preyed on the weak , this nonsense of the Pen being mightier than the sword is laughable , the pen may be a source of inspiration and influence to those of weaker moral character but that is it's limitations .

For those that wish to ignore and refuse all attempts at reason and decency the only solution is force to stop them their actions .

The weak choose to run and hide from their slaughter rather than fight and in their cowardice they blame not their persecutors but the tools which they use because in admitting that they were to blame is an admittance that in some way the killer is stronger than them and it brings them to the reality they are indeed weaklings and cowards , something they will do anything to avoid .
 
Have him read this, by Julia Gorin...

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/julia/gorin030802.asp

That oughta do it.

Be careful. I made that mistake once, and sent that same article to a friend.
Here's his response...

Wow, what an ego stroker for you. This lady is calling gun lovers alpha males. Are you sending this to me because you think that my lack of understanding of guns makes me afraid of them? You seem to forget that the reason I don't like them is BECAUSE I have used them. BECAUSE I have seen how quickly a life-taking projectile can travel through the air and into any random person in the way. You are deluding yourself if you think you're going to be able to defend your home against armed assailants who have not only the element of surprise on their side, but will also be more desperate than you. You want to flood the market with guns for everyone, and interestingly this might reduce the number of abusers somewhat. I know in Europe that by lowering the drinking age they actually decreased alcoholism, since society actually evened itself out after a little while. Now drinking is easily accessible to people, so they have a new responsibility to mind. Mutually Assured Destruction during the cold war prevented a nuclear holocaust, which was nice. So why don't we give nuclear weapons to everyone? Wouldn't it make things more stable if there was even more Mutually Assured Destruction? Why is everyone so worried about Iran and North Korea getting nuclear weapons? They're people too, and people are responsible!

I don't like the idea of nuclear proliferation for the same reason that I don't like the idea of everyone running around with CCW. It doesn't take long for a nuke to torch a country, and there is very little that an active defense network (satellite missiles, star wars, etc) can do to stop it. It takes even less time for a bullet from a random gun to kill me for no good reason. Even if I were carrying a gun, getting shot by surprise in the back of the head kinda prevents me from using it.
Mutually Assured Destruction only prevents rationally thinking, future-considerate entities from killing each other. Religious extremists think that killing people would be the work of god so that scares the crap out of us because they seem irrational. A robber scares us because he is willing to kill us for what we have in our pockets. This seems irrational. I don't want to give the tools for extremely effective killing to irrational people. I can't safely defend myself or the people I care about from that many threats.

You can't make getting a gun easier without making it easier for everyone to get one, since the black market will then have even more sources. Regulations only restrict those who obey laws. You got that right. But you say it's easy for people to get black market guns. Do you honestly think there will be less guns being sold from the backs of cars if there are more legal, easily obtained guns in the market?

It's like manufacturing ten thousand nukes, storing them each at seperate facilities and hoping none of them get stolen. The safer alternative would be to manufacture fewer nukes, make them harder to get and try to make sure only responsible people own them. That's why I'm in favor of gun regulation, not abolition. If the US had no nukes we'd be sitting ducks. Just like a rich homeowner without a bodygaurd is similarly vulnerable. He should have the means to legally defend himself, and he does. I don't agree with all gun regulations. The one about keeping your ammo seperate and keeping your gun locked in a box... pretty dumb. But I do like mandatory background checks, wait periods, no fully automatics, regular inspections of registered weapons. I feel that those regulations will keep guns in responsible hands and out of the trunks of cars. I feel like gun collecting only makes as much sense as nuke collecting, since you're putting an arsenal at risk for theft. A man only has two hands. He won't need 35 different assault rifles. That seems like common sense to me.

The article did ring with some truth since gun ownership is not a responsibility I want to deal with. I also don't want to be mayor, be a cop, or a supreme court judge. Why should we force very extreme responsibilities on people? Why should we prevent people who do want and can handle the responsibility from having it? The problem is that we can't have both. If some people make themselves mayor then all people have to be mayor. Responsibility is a scary thing when you take it seriously. I would not sleep better at night with a gun under my pillow. I would sleep worse since it would remind me of the potential intruders that I have to always defend against. Personally I'd rather just get robbed and compensated by homeowner's insurance than have to gun down some dumb kid who doesn't know better than to break into random houses. I would prefer to not have to kill people. It kinda scares me that you're so eager to kill people. It scares me more that there are so many more that would eagerly kill an intruder, armed or not, and then sleep fine afterward. I don't think many gun owners understand the magnitude of taking someone's life away from them. That doesn't mean we should take their guns away, but it does not bring me comfort about the average person being armed. Therefore I would prefer to not foist such responsibilities on everyone I've ever met.

You know, if someone was attacking me with a knife I would fight them butt naked if I had to. I don't need a gun for a dealing with a knife-armed opponent. Knives don't kill nearly as easily or as reliably. When was the last stabbing death you heard of? Guns though.... if someone was attacking me with a gun and I had a gun, there's no telling what might happen. That's what I worry about. Easily obtained guns getting into the hands of criminals who then force me to escalate and build an arsenal and spend my money on something I didn't want to have to buy or deal with. So screw that. I'm going to vote for legislation that makes guns harder to get for everyone. Legal gun owners can still eventually get them, but I'm not going to make it easy for some thug to kill me. You don't fight against nukes with satellite missiles. You build the CIA and the KGB. You use more effective tools that better reduce probability.
 
Eric,
Your friend's rant has so many holes I could drive a truck through it.

False premises, Straw man arguments, comparison of unlike samples, overextension of an example to absurdity...I could go on for a while.

EDIT: In fact now I remember (man old age must be catching up with me) I -have- read this article before and in fact have dissected that set of comments about two years ago in this post right here.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2873223&postcount=24
 
You know, if someone was attacking me with a knife I would fight them butt naked if I had to. I don't need a gun for a dealing with a knife-armed opponent. Knives don't kill nearly as easily or as reliably. When was the last stabbing death you heard of? Guns though.... if someone was attacking me with a gun and I had a gun, there's no telling what might happen.

There's been a number of them in Lubbock the last few years.

Knives are nasty. Had a co-worker who got stabbed in the back/side area. What saved him was the muscle mass from years of bodybuilding. He caught it in the meaty part of the lat. That's what the doctor said anyhow.
 
Knives don't kill nearly as easily or as reliably. When was the last stabbing death you heard of?

Haha! How about every day? Within their respective ranges, knives and guns are equally as deadly. That response, while well written, is lacking factual information and reason. Shocking, I know.
 
WOW! Where do we even start with that one? First, your buddy tries to come across as not being against citizens owning guns. He then goes on to portray national right to carry as "Giving everyone guns" and "forcing (or foisting) responsibility on others". It's like he draws no line between a Right and a Requirement. I almost wish we were set up like he fears, first question in a routine traffic stop is not "Your papers" but "You are meeting the caliber requirements?"

God help your friend if he is ever the subject of any type of attack, because he'll be stabbed to death trying to figure out if it's a mixed up kid or a harmless tweeker who was cruelly addicted because of other's lack of support and understanding during his childhood.
 
Actually I think he is right. That is just the way the world should be. Unfortunately that is not the way it came about, so I'd like to live it the way it is the best I can ... key word is 'Live'. An equalizer seems the simplest, most effective method to accomplish this ... thank you Sam Colt.
 
ZeSpectre,
I remember your previous post regarding my friend's response.
I feel like a traitor posting it, but for the common good of understanding the anti mind... I'm torn.
 
Personally I'd rather just get robbed and compensated by homeowner's insurance than have to gun down some dumb kid who doesn't know better than to break into random houses.

great, but what if rape and murder are on the to-do list as well?
 
Rambling, discursive, illogical,self-contradictory.

A shining example:

You want to flood the market with guns for everyone, and interestingly this might reduce the number of abusers somewhat. I know in Europe that by lowering the drinking age they actually decreased alcoholism, since society actually evened itself out after a little while. Now drinking is easily accessible to people, so they have a new responsibility to mind.

Corrected text:

You want to flood the market with guns for everyone, and interestingly this might reduce the number of shootings somewhat. I know in Somewhereland that by increasing gun ownership they actually decreased gun violence, since society actually evened itself out after a little while. Now guns are easily accessible to people, so they have a new responsibility to mind.

Thanks for making our point, even if it's from a different angle.

Goes along with the 230RN theory that we ought to issue .45s* to everyone. Everyone. Let the gang members and other ruffians shoot each other into nonexistence. The number of ancillary innocent victims with this scheme would be far less than at present and would soon approach zero.

I saw your analysis of this last year, Ze Spectre, and I think it should be required reading.
---------
* ".45" is just an example for the sake of verbal impact. Don't get all het up and frownie-faced about it.
 
Good cornering of an anti!

Part of me loves when that happens, but the other part of me thinks it'd have been better to try and get him to introspect instead of explode. For instance, point out (gently) that that's why guns were made - to make it possible for all men (and women) to be able to stand equally on strength.

This is why it's a good idea to spank your kids and treat them "unfairly" (ie, don't give them everything they want, sometimes arbitrarily). Though obviously not as part of the same approach. They'll learn that life isn't fair, and that poor behavior has consequences, making them better, more reasonable people.

People like the blogger you spoke of scare me. Their type are the first ones to start shoveling their enemies into ovens when they come to power.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.