You worry about Bears... read this!

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OC, please take a breather, man !

It's OK . Just relax and enjoy reading the thread . We all have bad days.

I hope you have a good night, and a better tomorrow.:)

Appreciate the sentiment, GM. It's all good...


Edit: On second thought, that's good advice. I'm not having a bad day, but I don't want to go medieval, either. I hope you have a good evening, as well.
 
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PINTLER - " Everyone should consider their own unique situation and carry one, the other, both, or neither, as appropriate. And they shouldn't assume their choice is right for everyone else."

This is, in my opinion, the wisest post on this thread.

Whatever "tool" with which one is proficient, is the "best" tool if attacked by a Griz or Black bear. There are so many uncontrollable variables regarding bear or other wild animal attacks it is sheer folly for anyone, scientist, hunter, hiker, etc., to smugly claim, "I know what's best for all you others."

Speaking of one extremely important variable in regard to bear spray which is barely mentioned here is wind direction. Most of the bear spray advocates seem to base their theory that spray is best, without regard to the wind.

I've been fortunate enough to hunt all over the mountains of Calif., Idaho, in five locations in Colorado, a dozen times in Utah, twice in Wyoming, twice in Arizona, and once in Montana. I can not recall a single time that the wind direction stayed consistent for more than a few minutes. The mountains and valleys and canyons and ridges cause the wind to be an irratic and huge variable and one has to constantly check the wind to try and get downwind from a game animal.

That said, IF one is unfortunate enough to have a bear charge and the person is carrying only bear spray, he or she had better hope and pray the bear is coming from upwind so the spray will hit the bear and not the person.

I've never been charged by a bear, although have seen a bunch of Black bears and killed two while actually hunting them. I've seen one Griz but probably an half mile away so no problem. I am always armed, no matter what part of the outdoors I'm in, and in Griz country I now carry a bear spray but my primary "tool" is either a high powered rifle and/or heavy caliber revolver.

I and my partners try to be alert and keep as clean camp as possible, but nothing is perfect.

As for the "statistics" used by researchers that the odds favor spray over firearms, I am reminded of the statistics other researchers use regarding firearms and self defense against two legged attackers. They claim that the odds are against a person being attacked by criminals so why own a gun? I say that if you are attacked by either a criminal or bear, you are now no longer part of the odds: now you're part of the statistics. :eek:

My opinion: others will vary.

EDIT: P.S. Another hunter was mauled in Wyoming this past Sunday by a Griz. Killed an elk on Saturday late evening, gutted it but went back to camp. Sunday morning, came back to get the meat, unarmed so the report read, and a Griz had claimed the elk. The hunter was attacked by the Griz and wasn't killed but seriously torn up. It happens.

L.W.
 
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Leanwolf, Most non fatal attacks in Wyoming go unreported. The number of dogs and pack animals which are targeted first by Grizz is are never reported. It is too involved to report these incidents to the Feds.
 
Him being in shock is a hard sell for me. Why? My thoughts are this - He had the presence of mind to film a video and go out of his was to mention bear spray. If you just escaped death not once but twice, essentially winning the lottery twice in the same day. Last thing on my mind is filming a video. A photo? Sure. He just seemed so intent on specifically mentioning one tool and not the other. So I can't get on board with that theory.

I don't want to drift too far into conspiracy theories, but I'm very skeptical of this story so far. I'll just leave it at that.

OC, he filmed it AFTER the attack(s). We don't know what state of mind he was in during the attacks.

As for focusing on the tool, well heck, it failed him.

Deaf
 
Here in North America the big bears are the primary concern in the wild with regards to attacking man but how about Africa?
Have the OC proponents gone to recommending OC for protection against, lions, buffalo, crocks or hippos? If so how has it measured up against firearms?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
EDIT: P.S. Another hunter was mauled in Wyoming this past Sunday by a Griz. Killed an elk on Saturday late evening, gutted it but went back to camp. Sunday morning, came back to get the meat, unarmed so the report read, and a Griz had claimed the elk. The hunter was attacked by the Griz and wasn't killed but seriously torn up. It happens.

This guy was NOT smart. Unarmed and went to go find an elk left overnight in bear country, discovers it was not where he left it and went looking for it, finding it and a mama bear with cubs. She defended HER elk and cubs. Go figure.
 
Here in North America the big bears are the primary concern in the wild with regards to attacking man but how about Africa?
Have the OC proponents gone to recommending OC for protection against, lions, buffalo, crocks or hippos? If so how has it measured up against firearms?

Never thought about that. Wonder why they don't over there in India or Africa?

This guy was NOT smart. Unarmed and went to go find an elk left overnight in bear country, discovers it was not where he left it and went looking for it, finding it and a mama bear with cubs. She defended HER elk and cubs. Go figure.

I agree!

Now as for OC on bear. I can see it to get rid of nuisance bears that are invading the camp sites (no real need to shoot them) or bears that are threatening (bluff charges or such were you MAY have to shoot them but may not.) So yes, it is wise to have some nearby.

And, of course, if all you have is bear spray, well that's all you have!

BUT once the bear is in full charge, well it's hard to transition from OC to gun or gun to OC. You pick one tool and start using it as fast as you can. And that tool, IF the person is well trained and keeps it handy for quick use, should be a firearm.

All that research by Dr. Smith showed was guns, if actually used, are pretty effective (note he never broke down what calibers they were.) If you believe his study then even small stuff apparently worked often! And take the 60 percent where the gun 'failed' cause it was not used, shooter fell backward, didn't fire it, etc... you see the guns were effective in the 90 percentile!

But to say OC is super effective belies the fact Dr. Smith's study showed not one place where the OC failed not being used, or using it to late, or fumbling (falling backwards!) And this there are big questions as to how to believe them (like were any of them really charging??)

And this goes to the heart of this thread. I posted where a person who collected stories of firearms successes while defending against bears. Seems the percentages he claims do match the percentages Dr. Smith claims once you take out the bogus 'firearm failures'.

Deaf
 
This thread has convinced me to take my kids on vacations to places where there are no bears.
 
This thread has convinced me to take my kids on vacations to places where there are no bears.
Tom,

I live in Texas. We have lots of snakes. Big ratterlers. Galveston and Corpus Christi has sharks (I've gulf oil rig spear fished twice.) Tornados here to!

I fear them far far less than the two legged animals that infest the land.

I hope to go back to Alaska next year (or Montanna.) I'll bring my .44 but I won't fret much.

Just use common sense with kids about. Keep them close.

Deaf
 
You did not get the complete story. He was also bowhunting. What is your problem? And besides what matters he was killed by a bear armed only with bear spray.:rolleyes:
 
And besides what matters he was killed by a bear armed only with bear spray.
The FWS report catalogs all the items found at the scene. There was no bear spray or bear spray container found.

Here is a direct quote from the FWS report:

"...there was no evidence of bear spray or firearms at the fatality site or at Mr. Stewart’s camp."​

http://www.wyofile.com/bear-kills-son-father-calls-13120-fine-joke/

Searchers found his remains eight days later on Sept. 12, without any sign of defensive bear spray.​

http://www.wyofile.com/employer-faces-15k-osha-fines-bear-mauling-death/

"One cited violation notes that Nature’s Capital employees “were not adequately protected from contact with bears, by not providing and requiring the carrying of bear spray"​

Where did you get the information that he was armed with bear spray?
 
Why does every other long drawn out angry thread but this one get closed?

Different tools for different jobs... Bring both and let discretion be the better part of valor.

Don't get eated

HB
 
Be a shame to shut down an informative thread that challenges skewed data that is prejudiced in favor of a gov agenda.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
Have the OC proponents gone to recommending OC for protection against, lions, buffalo, crocks or hippos? If so how has it measured up against firearms?

Every zookeeper or trainer that works with elephants, lions, and tigers all carry or are recommended to carry bear spray. Crocs? No. Impossible to work on crocs since they are not mammals.

Every mammal has a specific receptor that involuntarily activates when introduced to oleoresin capsicum. If the receptor doesn't activate, the OC didn't make contact with the mucous membranes.

Jack Hanna famously used bear spray successfully in the field and there are other successful uses by zookeepers/trainers.
 
or maybe it was just worth repeating


Definitely worth repeating as many folks here have missed that point. The link in the OP is just a sales pitch promoting a product and yet folks want to take it as gospel. Kinda like believing the burger you get @ MickeyDs is going to look like the one on the billboards.

These Big bore handgun vs bear spray debates come up all the time and have yet to ever be resolved, mainly because some folks want to believe parables and folklore as opposed to valid research. Some claim anything opposite of their belief is contrived, while their info is straight from the top of Mount Sinai. Either can and do work, both can and have failed. What one needs to take from these thread is that if you venture into bear country, you need to know your risks. Knowing bear behavior and paying attention to what's going on around you at all times is probably going to keep you safer than having both a gun and spray on your person. Regardless of your choice you need to know how to use it and how to use it well. With either you need to have something left when the bear is at arms length. Even with both, you will have little time and little chance once the bear is up to speed.
 
Every zookeeper or trainer that works with elephants, lions, and tigers all carry or are recommended to carry bear spray.


Sure... I go to zoos, and I never see them carry any kind of spray.

'Recommended'? Ok. That really settles it!

X-Rap said:
Be a shame to shut down an informative thread that challenges skewed data that is prejudiced in favor of a gov agenda.

I do but they won't address the faults I find in the research. They find it better to distract by arguing with others and thus bury the thread.

Deaf
 
Sure... I go to zoos, and I never see them carry any kind of spray.

'Recommended'? Ok. That really settles it!

I'm sure you are not watching them when they are cleaning the cages, feeding them after hours etc. You know, actually in the cage with them.

Here is a recent link that show the regs. This is from 3 days ago.

Zoo policy required that she carry pepper spray on her belt for self-defense, but she didn’t have any, the report says.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/oct/3/report-zookeeper-didnt-have-pepper-spray-when-atta/
 
I offered OC a chance to prove his theory. He politely ignored it. In Africa and India many people are killed and injured by predatory animals. I ask a White Hunter in Zimbabwe about them using Bear spray?? He laughed, that is American Political Correctness. Yes, and supported by chemical merchandising.
 
Sure... I go to zoos, and I never see them carry any kind of spray.

'Recommended'? Ok. That really settles it!

What do you know, Deaf. I found a nice little link from a zoo in Texas, the San Antonio Zoo. Maybe you've been to this one. (I'm guessing you'll say no)

Direct quote
They start their mornings around 7 a.m. by hooking their walkie-talkies and pepper spray onto their blue cargo shorts before setting off to their duties in their area of the zoo.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/A-slice-of-life-at-the-zoo-Cleaning-poop-4702799.php

Bet you can't wait until those site outages kick in ;)
 
Hmm San Antonio zoo. Well OC, I've never been there. Didn't say there wasn't a zoo that used them, just that I haven't seen any used or carried.

Still not gonna discuss the skewed data pushed by Dr. Smith on bear spray, right?

Deaf
 
Still not gonna discuss the skewed data pushed by Dr. Smith on bear spray, right?

There's nothing to discuss. I already said it is considered scientifically valid. You just chose not to believe it.

Look, this thread needs to be euthanized. We even have a troll that came out of the woodwork. Why don't you do us all a favor and provide third-party, scientifically valid evidence to back up the claims you made at the jump. Provide those and we can put this thread down.
 
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