Your 30-30 may fail when you need it most

[gamestalker]

^^, indeed, have that rifle inspected by a good competent gun smith. Head space is not something to take lightly, it can result in serious problems, including catastrophic failure of the firearm and cartridges, as well as injury.

Although some very experienced individuals have been known to work around chambers with excessive head space, such as relics or older firearms. But compensating for excessive head space by forming the brass is only effective to a certain degree, even for the experienced, the process of getting brass to that spec. can easily lead to catastrophic events, but it still isn't the right way of solving the problem.

Heed the advice provided by the experts above, it may prevent a trip to the E.R., or worse.

GS

 

[fguffey]

Although some very experienced individuals have been known to work around chambers with excessive head space

That is a conflict, I am the fan of a reloader with dies, presses and shell holders knowing enough about the tools and components to custom size cases to fit, at the same time a reloader that can bump the shoulder .002" should have the skills necessary to size a case that would fit a long chamber. I never suggested a reloader should be limited, all of my presses and dies have threads, I have long cases that that will not chamber, I also have long chamber that are too long for the case, for me? not a problem, I have long cases that will not chamber, no one says I have to fire the case after forming, I want to know the length of the chamber in thousandths. I do not find it necessary to purchase gages, I can make a gage, I can measure the gage I make.

Gages are nice, not necessary, just nice.

Then there is the:

Your 30-30 may fail when you need it most

And I ask, how can that happen to a reloader with a press, die and shell holder?
F. Guffey

 

[R.W.Dale]

And I ask, how can that happen to a reloader with a press, die and shell holder?

F. Guffey

I'll answer your question with a question

How did the headspace on this gun become excessive in the first place?


Without knowing that don't you think it's a tad irresponsible to promote working around this MASSIVE underlying safety issue with shoulder bumping hanky panky?

 

[rooster59]

copied off the reloadersnest.com forum:

Original Post-
"I bought 2 Marlin 336 lever actions in 35 Rem in a pawn shop - both made in 1974. One turned out fine. The other has some problems. With a shell in the chamber and shells in the tube, the bolt would not stay locked. I replaced the lever plunger detent and spring and fixed that. When I shot it, it would not fire every time - barely dent some primers - especially new shells. It fired most reloads and new shells with the 2nd snap on them. I put a new firing pin in (2 piece) and cleaned the bolt with gun scrubber. I also put in a new hammer spring. The new spring was weaker than the old one and the new front firing pin was .005 shorter than the old one. It was better, but still did not fire all factory shells. I shimmed the hammer spring with washers, still better - fires reloads OK but not all factory shells. Looks like it would do the opposite and reloads would misfire. I guess to fix headspace on a lever action you would have to cut off the barrell at the back, rethread and rebore the chamber?"

Reply from Rapier-
"Actually there is an old gunsmith trick that has been used for many, many years where a go-nogo gague is not available to check a suspected headspacing problem. You take a factory unfired round(it is SAMMI spec) you tear a corner off a piece of note pad paper (.003 thick), do not use note-book paper, the little corner must fit on the case head. Wet the case head with saliva and stick the note paper on the case head, chamber the round, the bolt should close. Repeat the process sticking a second corner ontop of the first now you have .006 thickness of paper, try to close the bolt, it should not close. If the bolt does close it is a 99% probability you are over headspace.
Ed"

 

[Boho]

30-30 30

The 30-30 has probably put more venison on the table than any other caliber in history. No good for deer? I've never had a Texas Whitetail or Axis survive my Marlin ever.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The 30-30 has probably put more venison on the table than any other caliber in history. No good for deer? I've never had a Texas Whitetail or Axis survive my Marlin ever.

I completely agree...

If you read enough forums you will find out the 30-30 is useless, Deer have armor plated skin, if you don't shoot a 300 Win Mag or more you can't make 1 shot kills and the 30-06 is nothing more than a Varmint rifle.

In reality we all know the 30-06 will cleanly kill anything in North America, deer are no harder to put down than a man and back when men were good hunters they took plenty of deer with a 25-35. They though the 30-30 was "the big gun" if they owned one and if someone was using a surplus 30-06 on deer they were often asked why they were shooting such a big rifle. (and teased about using such a big rifle)

I'm guessing a lot of this is marketing that goes along with the bullet speed craze but I for one don't buy into all the misinformation.

 

[fguffey]

How did the headspace on this gun become excessive in the first place?

Reloaders chamber a round then fire, it the rifle does not fire when the trigger is pulled the reloader chambers another round, not me, I check the length of the chamber before I get to the range.

The length of the chamber could be tracked from the factory, the length of the chamber could be tracked from day one of ownership, problem. too many smiths and reloaders use the wide range of tolerances as an excuse, I don't. I want to know the length of the chamber in thousandths, I do not have an excuse for not knowing because I know how.

Without knowing that don't you think it's a tad irresponsible to promote working around this MASSIVE underlying safety issue with shoulder bumping hanky panky?

I have been instructed not to type slower, I determine the length of the chamber before heading to the range, the 338 rifles in question would have never made it to the range. The problem is not new, I received a call from a smith that wanted to run the information by me, he is located just a few miles south of you. He is on his 3rd replacement.

I ask him if he was interested in validating his findings, for him, not surprising, he ask "How?" I have a 338 that was made in 1965, complete with scope.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

How did the headspace on this gun become excessive in the first place?

they came that way, again, some did not, tracking the length of the chamber is possible for me there is no all at once, suddenly and without warning.

there are some that choose to talk it to death, then there is one that suggest pushing away from the key board and removing the hands from the pockets.


F. Guffey

 

[R.W.Dale]

Reloaders chamber a round then fire, it the rifle does not fire when the trigger is pulled the reloader chambers another round, not me, I check the length of the chamber before I get to the range.



The length of the chamber could be
tracked from the factory, the length of the chamber could be tracked from day one of ownership, problem. too many smiths and reloaders use the wide range of tolerances as an excuse, I don't. I want to know the length of the chamber in thousandths, I do not have an excuse for not knowing because I know how.







I have been instructed not to type slower, I determine the length of the chamber before heading to the range, the 338 rifles in question would have never made it to the range. The problem is not new, I received a call from a smith that wanted to run the information by me, he is located just a few miles south of you. He is on his 3rd replacement.



I ask him if he was interested in validating his findings, for him, not surprising, he ask "How?" I have a 338 that was made in 1965, complete with scope.



F. Guffey

Let me translate this to non pontificate speak.

The rifle is broken and needs to be fixed.

Bump sizing is not FIXING anything for the OP


No offense but for the purposes of this thread NOBODY cares how you've tracked headspace since Eisenhower was president. THIS thread is about the OP's broken and potentially unsafe 30-30 and how that should be addressed

 

[fguffey]

No offense but for the purposes of this thread NOBODY cares how you've tracked headspace since Eisenhower was president. THIS thread is about the OP's broken and potentially unsafe 30-30 and how that should be addressed
__________________

And I want to know how someone with all his experience can get to the range with a rifle that will not hold the rim to the rear of the chamber, and after a fail to fire he chambered another case and it also fails to fire.

A bad habit is to chamber a round in a rifle just to see if it will fire, I want to know.

F. Guffey

 

[Salmoneye]

whose to say the rim recess in your particular rifle is cut to match the brand of brass you are using.

saami

 

[fguffey]

whose to say the rim recess in your particular rifle is cut to match the brand of brass you are using.

saami
Today 11:07 AM

.010" between minimum and maximum and the rim is at minimum.068" less .008", that make sense to everyone but me. I want to know the difference in length between the chamber shoulder to the bolt face and the case length from the shoulder to the head of the case. I suggest backing away from the keyboard.

Component companies do not sell components for a reloader that knows what he is doing, if I have a choice when reducing case travel, I choose to reduce case travel.

F. Guffey

 

[R.W.Dale]

.010" between minimum and maximum and the rim is at minimum.068" less .008", that make sense to everyone but me. I want to know the difference in length between the chamber shoulder to the bolt face and the case length from the shoulder to the head of the case. I suggest backing away from the keyboard.



Component companies do not sell components for a reloader that knows what he is doing, if I have a choice when reducing case travel, I choose to reduce case travel.



F. Guffey

Why can't you grasp that in this case shoulder position is NOT critical to safety or function. The ONLY way it possibly matters is how long your cases last, which given how cheap and plentiful 30-30 brass is WHO (but you) CARES?

IF IT IS

That's an indication of a malfunction that needs addressed at the rifle and not on the reloading bench

 

[fguffey]

And I want to know how someone with all his experience can get to the range with a rifle that will not hold the rim to the rear of the chamber, and after a fail to fire he chambered another case and it also fails to fire.

Why can't you grasp that in this case shoulder position is NOT critical to safety or function.

It is a matter of being able to keep up with two thoughts at the same time. If the rim prevented the case from moving forward the shoulder of the case would not be critical, but the rim is not preventing the case from moving forward and the shoulder is too far forward meaning the case will not head space on the rim nor will the shoulder of the case head space on the shoulder of the chamber.

Bad stuff, when the shooter managed to fire a case the case was forward in the chamber. If the case locks onto the chamber the rear of the case is pushed back against the bolt face. That means the case stretched between the case body and case head . Even a reloader with minimum shop skills can somehow manage to measure the length of the case from the datum minimum /shoulder to the head of the case.

The wow factor, adding the head space of a rimmed /belted chamber to the additional length of a chamber when the shoulder is too far forward. The smith south of you came up with a number of .037".

Verifying his numbers was an option, one more time, he called, they said they did not want that rifle out and among shooters, he sent the rifle back. Now? He is on his third 336 rifle. And I said all of this news is not new, it is old news.

Change, no I will first determine the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face.

F. Guffey

 

[Hummer70]

There are other things to be considered but first lets look at the headspace issue. I made up a headspace gage on my lathe and on first cuts I made the rim .078" thick just to see if some gorrilla had really got carried away with what he/she was doing.

Bolt did not go in battery thusly I started reducing the rim thickness and got down to .072 and it was almost there and on next pass I used a dial indicator to measure the movement of the carriage and moved it .002 and made the cut. The rim came out at .069" which SAAMI specs call for .070" as the MAX. The bolt went into battery and by the feel I feel it would have snugged nicely if the .070 dimension had been arrived at.

I pulled ten cases out of my stash and measured the rims. SAAMI specs call for .063 max rim thickness and allow for them to be .010" shorter. Rims measured .054 and .055.

Thusly I am working with a MAX IN SPEC chamber and cases with rims on the min end of the .010" tolerance range. Thusly one is maxed to the limit and the others are on the min end of the limit.

Thusly I pulled out my Hunter Force Gage and checked the energy required to sear up the hammer and it exhibited a 8Lb force availability. I have since measured two more Marlins. One exhibits a 10 lb force and the other 11.8 which is consistant with spring energy requirements on the No 4 Enfield.

Thusly my striker energy appears to be about 20% below the other two which have not exhibited misfires. SAAMI only mentions striker energy measured in thous on copper. My contact from the Royal Armouries Museum advised last night the Brits use force gages and string.

For kicks I measured the striker energy available on a 1911 Schmidt Rubin and the required 18 lbs to sear up. I was able to measure copper energy on it when I had a 308 Win barrel on it and it delivered .022" copper indent.

I have since pulled that barrel and installed a medium heavy barrel I chambered for 7.5 Swiss which was it's original caliber as I lucked into a match reamer on the PTG website about two years back at a great deal and called them immediately and got it.

As well I called Wolff Spring and they do not make a hammer spring for the 336 Marlin at all. I found a good deal ebay for a used hammer, extension spur, spring and retainer plate and jumped on that and it will be shipped this morning. Hopefully about Thursday I will be better off striker energy wise.

If any of you guys with Marlins have a good quality force gage please measure the energy required to sear up the hammer and pass it along to us.
Thanks

 

[45_auto]

As well I called Wolff Spring and they do not make a hammer spring for the 336 Marlin at all.

It appears that someone at Wolff lied to you.

Wolff makes a REDUCED power hammer spring for the 336, several friends of mine have them in their guns. No problems from any of them, although from the Midway reviews it seems that several people have had problems with light strikes from them.

$6.99 from Midway if you're interested:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/84...ng-marlin-39a-336-444-1894-1895-reduced-power

 

[Hummer70]

Somehow that is not surprising. I have a replacement factory spring on the way and if I can get my buddy to put my old one in his furnace and re-heat treat it, it might be useful.

The spring I have is all but worthless now so buying another already known for light energy would be a waste.

The same spring is used in 94 models but they utilize pistol primers which will work fine with lighter springs.

There are two things I won't do, buy a lighter spring for anything and vote for or associate with anyone that is anti gun.