You're wrong, Mr. President

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wingman

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You're wrong, Mr. President
By Colin McNickle
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Sunday, December 26, 2004

President Bush says he wants to revamp an immigration system that is "not working" and is "not compassionate" through a program that can't work and would be anything but "compassionate" to Americans forced to pick up the tab.

During his end-of-the-year news conference, the president formally revived his expanded "guest worker" proposal first laid out as a set of "principles" a year ago. But the Bush plan is quite unprincipled and, by any other name, another in a long line of amnesty programs. Bush confidante and former Montana Gov. Mark Racicot disputed that characterization to me during the fall campaign. But that's exactly what it is. And it will do what amnesty programs do best -- fail.

Details of the president's plan go to Capitol Hill next month. Mr. Bush wants to allow illegal aliens -- up to 8 million if not more -- to hold jobs here "legally" by issuing "temporary worker cards." American workers would not be hurt, the president insists; these legalized illegals would fill jobs that U.S. firms supposedly can't fill.

Not only will the administration proposal "take the pressure off" Border Patrol agents who should be "chasing crooks and thieves and drug runners and terrorists," the president said these illegals are innocuous, "good-hearted people." All they want to do is "put food on the table. ... Family values do not stop at the Rio Grande River."

But apparently common sense does.




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Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., the former junior high teacher and president of the Independence Institute, recently posed a dozen critical questions about the Bush plan. Allow me to paraphrase and quote from some of them:



How is forgiving an unlawful act without penalty not amnesty?


With no penalty, what prevents even more illegals from streaming into our country? (There's already ample documentation of a flood of new illegals, especially in Arizona.)


Why not secure our borders first, then "experiment" with a new "guest worker program"?


An estimated 150,000 people, hundreds from countries on the State Department's "watch list" for harboring terrorists, enter the United States from countries other than Mexico each year. And amnesty for Mexican illegals takes priority?


"The president says his temporary worker plan will be limited to 'jobs Americans won't do.' But since willingness to do any job is always relative to the wages being offered for that job, isn't it true that millions of jobs will be lost by Americans to foreign labor willing to work at a lower wage? When an employer lowers the wage of a job so only a foreign worker will take the job, as is already happening in construction trades and many other occupations, how can anyone say this is not taking jobs away from Americans?"


In "principle," the president's plan would allow "temporary workers" (i.e., illegal aliens) to take jobs for a three-year period, renewable for another three-year period. But what if that worker marries and has children while here. "(W)ill the plan require him to go home? If he returns home, what happens to his wife and children?" Does the U.S. government (i.e., taxpayers) take responsibility for these offspring citizens, paying for their educations and medical care?


Current laws prohibiting the hiring of illegal aliens are virtually unenforceable. What really will change? Will proof of "illegal legal" status be required? Will there be enforcement? How? What will be the penalties?


An estimated 400,000 illegals remain at large in the U.S. today. Among them, 100,000 "criminal aliens." There are an estimated 2 million tourist, student and extraneous visa "overstays" not rounded up and sent home. Asks Congressman Tancredo: "(W)hy should anyone believe (immigration authorities) will be willing and able to locate and deport an additional 6 million to 8 million 'temporary workers' if these workers choose to stay when their permit expires?"



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President Bush says "the country is less secure than it could be with a rational (immigration) system." But what's "rational" and more "secure" about a "solution" that only exacerbates the illegal immigration problem?

Not a thing.

Sorry, Mr. President. Sorry Gov. Racicot. But you're both wrong.

The president's amnesty plan has gotten a cool reception, especially from congressional conservatives. But that doesn't mean it's dead; it could end up attached to a commonsense measure, excised from the intelligence overhaul bill, to deny illegals driver's licenses. Granting illegals such official documentation is no less than a license to commit fraud.

We must get serious about controlling the influx of illegal aliens into this country in 2005. Instead of euphemizing amnesty, the administration should be euthanizing it.

Colin McNickle can be reached at [email protected] or (412) 320-7836
 
Not only will the administration proposal "take the pressure off" Border Patrol agents who should be "chasing crooks and thieves and drug runners and terrorists,"


HMMM, correct me if I am wrong, but Illegals are crooks. That is from the ILLEGAL part in Illegal Alien. :cuss: :cuss:
 
I say give any family citizenship if at least 2 family members of proper age enlist in the military.
 
I say give any family citizenship if at least 2 family members of proper age enlist in the military

Let's take it one step further, they have to complete their enlistment first. If they're serious about becoming citizens, let them wait.

Chris
 
I say give any family citizenship if at least 2 family members of proper age enlist in the military.

Good idea, a buddy of mine and I talked that over, letting illegals enlist, 5 year hitch, after 3 years be granted citizenship, but must serve the other 2. Reason it wont work. You will have peacenik liberals coming out of the woodwork shouting SLAVERY, FORCED SERVICE........Face it. The Illegals and liberals, and it seems our President want a free ride for the Illegals, at our expense of course. :cuss: :banghead:
 
Campers, we've got folks in suburbia whose kids are too good to mow grass or work at Mickey D's... I mean, I see inner city kids, immigrants, etc., riding a bus two hours each way to ask me if I'd like fries with that... Most of the groundskeeping enterprises around here appear to be Mexican.

They work. They work hard.

You don't like the concept? Make your kid mow the grass. Make him earn the $$ for that car.
 
Whether my kids, or kids in general mow the lawn, still does not negate the fact that Illegals are breaking the law. That is the problem, along with draining city resources, insurance rates going up and other little domestic problems that can be traced to the cockroach like infestation of illegals.
 
They work. They work hard.

I agree Bogie. A crew replaced my roof this summer. 110 degree heat must have been much hotter up on the roof because they had second degree burns on the exposed parts of their arms.


I don't know of anyone else who will work so hard and be grateful for the opprotunity.
 
I generally agree that a formal "guest worker" program is a necessary evil, given the scale of the illegal immigration problem. To this extent, I think that President Bush is on the right track.

However, I think that such a program must be accompanied by much stronger enforcement of the law against employers. If they can get "legal" aliens to work, they should be fined - heavily, getting progressively heavier - for employing illegals. In this way, those who've come across the border, but are not willing to take the legal avenue open to them, won't be able to find work easily, and will find the USA a lot less comfortable.

I don't think it's possible to secure our borders, given the huge size of the problem and the monumental costs involved. I've seen estimates that the initial capital investment to secure both northern and southern borders with a wall and/or double fence would be northwards of $20 billion, and the annual maintenance costs would be at least $2 billion - and that ignores those bypassing the fences by sailing or swimming around them, or going over them, or being smuggled through (and a bribe has been known to cloud the vision of many a Customs inspector - remember Prohibition?). Therefore, if we can't prevent them coming in, let's focus on preventing them taking a job away from those legally entitled to it.
 
If a guest worker program is so wrong

What are some ideas that are better?
I cannot see the border left wide open like is is now. Maybe never again since 9/11.
I don't see how a guest worker problem is so bad. Setting limits and quotas are swell if they can be enforced.
I'd say let the first wave of guest workers first jobs be to build some enforcement camps in the border states. Build a few fences and walls.
Put the personel and butgets for the IRS and BATFE and other unwelcome departments transfer for border and alien enforcement.

Imigration policy has to change. Legal status for birthright citizenship will have to come into play as prerequisite for dropping kids. Sounds harsh but this was never intended to be a social/welfare nation. Maybe a birth cert in the US could be used to push imigration applicants up the waiting list.

How much corruption is already noted in the US immigration practices? I would call it treason and treat it as such.
 
I am speaking from experience.

Illegal aliens work hard. Some of my freinds are illegal aliens. I helped a freind of mine build a garage he is illegal. He owns his own house he is a good man and has a family. We both worked togehter. We both agitated for a union at work and we both got fired for it.
Now on to my point
The problem with the guest worker program.
I keep hearing that the guest workers will fill jobs that we dont want. Its always the same thing. Illegals and guest workers "Only" do menial labor. That is a fallacy. They do more than that, they work in manufacturing jobs. They lower the standard of living in skilled trades. They are exploited by greedy employers. If we allow guest workers to take jobs we dont want, then we will create jobs we dont want. Want to hire a guest worker, lower the wages for the job until no one wants it then give it to a guest worker.
Place me and fidel tried to get a union in, was about 60 percenbt mexican illegals. they made 7-10 dollars an hour. The white machinists made 13-14.50 an hour. 14.50 was the highest wage any one would get. Didnt matter on years of service,experiene or skill, you were not going to get a raise. When it got to the poi8nt were the company could fire off the higher paid workers without suffering production losses they did. Then the benefits dissapeared.
The owner would post articles about how lucky we were to have what we had. Me and fidel were on break one day and we were with the owner the owners son and the plant foreman. We were talking about how the illegals were going to get amnesty the next year. I had the whole thing tape recorded because of our union activitys. The ins wouldnt prosecute. The ins never prosecuted. And when it came time for a union vote the owner told the illegals he would have them all deported if the union came in.
well enough rant.
If you have a guest worker program. It will be abused. It will also be a tool for wage reduction and union busting. George Bush is just trying to supply a cheap work force to companys wanting to expand profits at the expense of society.
 
If you have a guest worker program. It will be abused. It will also be a tool for wage reduction and union busting. George Bush is just trying to supply a cheap work force to companys wanting to expand profits at the expense of society.
Exactly right, but also very 'anti-libertarian' of you. Don't you know the free market will squeeze out corporate excesses? Nevermind the fact that people are corrupt. The outcome of a free market is just. Never mind that it could be dehumanizing and explotive. Nothing to see here. Drink the kool aid.
 
It is very hypocritical of me

I want to be a libertarian. Yet i disagree about the open borders advocation.
I do want to make it easier for immigrants to get here though. My wife is from another country. I would also like to see an amnesty for the illegals already here. But i know that wont work. Never mind the rewarding the law breakers argument. I just know it wont stop illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is not ther real big problem. The real problem is the employers hiring them. The USDOJ has no interest in going after employers even when they have solid evidence against them.
Illegal immigrants just want the american dream like the rest of us. Although it is not there fault. They are causing the standard of living to fall. At least in my chosen feild. Im 41 time is running out for me. I have invested money and time in schooling for my field. 13 years of being a machinist and the wages i earn or can earn now are at the same level they were 13 years ago. Sad very sad.
 
Kinda frustrating to watch the illegals who were replacing my neighbor's roof show up and plug away starting at 7am every day, even on the day of Hurricane Gaston, when they worked from 7am until the rain started at 1pm. Meanwhile, my SECOND crew of anglos (had to fire the first batch for no-show) didn't show up if there was a cloud in the sky, left at 2:30 every day and basically had to "drink about it" if anything at all came up that might keep them from working. My neighbor bought his house and had the roof replaced within three weeks, and meanwhile I lived with a tarp for almost a year thanks to my totally legal work crews. :cuss:
 
The real problem is the employers hiring them. The USDOJ has no interest in going after employers even when they have solid evidence against them.
And that is precisely the problem. Congress passes laws to look good to the voter. The executive branch decides to not enforce said laws. Corporations brib. . . .er, contribute to campaigns thereby purchasing legislative favor. There are many stories of INS or BP busting a business for employing criminal aliens only to have a few call made and the offending members of the executive branch are called off, spanked, or chewed out. There is no incentive to enforce the law when government itself is a chief lawbreaker.

And that is the most frightening factor to me. The idea of a lawless government enforcing gun laws is something with which to be concerned. Yet there seems to be a lot of lawlessness going on out there and the government is chief offender.
 
Funny coincidence

I gave up roofing to become a machinist. Now im to out of shape too old and hurt too much to go back into roofing. Lots of money in roofing. Its hard work.
And i would not tear off a roof if there was a threatening cloud in the sky. Reason is liability. If you cannot with aboslute certainty replace a section of roof before a rain you dont to it. We accidently destroyed a screen at a cinema at west town mall cause it rained before we could get the roof covered. The joke was they were playing "rain man" that day. lol
Well it cost my company thousands to replace that screen from the damage.
 
<------- closed-border Libertarian.

Leaving the borders open so the "hard-working" mexicans can come take jobs means the borders are open for criminals, thugs, and terrorists to come on in, too.

Letting illegal aliens in to "do the jobs Americans won't do" means greater unemployment for US citizens already here when their jobs go to people working at 1/2 the pay.

Saying "the jobs Americans won't do" is a slap in the face to all Americans. Trust me, there are people in America who will do landscaping and roofing, just not for peanuts.

Let's just go ahead and throw all the American landscapers and roofers out of work now and hire illegals. That's the same practical effect as what's happening now.

Bush is the best president Mexico has ever had.
 
Bang!

I love you Spartacus (its a movie line...lol)
There it is in a nut shell. Bush will try to squash this discussion by appealing to people that it is racism and unpatriotic not to let the illegals in. This is also pay back to the latino community who supported him in 2 elections. It would already have been a done deal if Vincente Fox had backed the US war plans in Iraq at the UN. Fox didnt and to make it worse he spoke out against the Iraq war. Now its all public kiss and make up. But truthfully i dont think this will happen. The status quo is much better. Illegal employees have no rights.
No recourse of law. Sort of like the shot bank robber going to the hospital.
If he goes to the hospital he gets treated then arrested.
If an illegal alien complains about poor treatment, wrongful termination or safety violations. Where is he going to go? There is no legal recourse.
 
It's wrong to say they all come to work and work hard, perhaps once this was so but now however it is not.

The present plan for a worker program will only encourage more illegal
immigration. Many will never apply because they have criminal records
I've read 30 percent of those caught have records.

The "only" people who benefit are the rich on this side and Mexico.

Cost of illegal immigration to taxpayers I've read averages $2400 per
family, perhaps we could use that tax to pay more for the cost of
products that illegal immigration saves us. :rolleyes:


Like it or not immigration is and will continue to be a growing problem
due to world population. We need a controlled set number each year
rather then a illegal mass of under educated workers who will become
such a burden on this country that in time could bring us down to 3th
world status.
 
Jokingly, someone asked me what I'd do to secure the southern border. Simple solution to someone in the Army.

A strip of landmines, randomly placed. Two chainlink fenses with barbed wire, and lots of signs. Army Corps of Engineers would love to be able to actually do something constructive. Unions don't let the Corps of Engineers do much domestically. A few AWACS can patrol a very large area for low flying Ultralights. Occassionally, use earth penetrating radar to look for tunnels. During the Cold War, the US gave photos to the Egyptian government helping them map the underground aquifers feeding the Nile river. We developed these satellites to map out Soviet missile silo compounds. The Nile River photos were a discreet way of telling the commies that we could and did map out all of their hidden missile silos.

Domestically? Set up a program that would fine an employer some amount per worker. Give half to whoever squeals on the employer, use the other half to finance the program.

Of course, my ideas would never fly. Too many busineses would protest, Mexico would complain, unions would get honked off, capitalistic reward program wouldn't fly either.
 
In an attempt to pander to hispanic voters, and to help pay for the social programs for our elderly (Social Security and Medicare), in the near future our politicians will be increasingly recruiting the immigration of working age folks from south of the border. My advice, brush-up on your spanish.

nero
 
Damn this pisses me off. Its exactly the same ???? they do with the H1B program and the outsourcing right now in the tech sector.

H1Bs are only supposed to be brought in to do jobs "for which they can find no qualified citizen candidate" so they create bogus positions which require impossible things like "8 years of java experience" (back in 2000 when it was only about 3 years old) or require 30 certifications or some impossible combination of specialites, etc. They interview no one for these positions. They then turn around and hire bangladeshis or indians or chinese H1Bs to come in and do basic networkingfor 20k a year instead of 50k, or senior programmers for 30k a year instead of 80K-130k+.

Of course they could easily find americans to do those jobs, but americans wont work for a wage that forces them to live in their cars or in a homeless shelter. In that area of the country, 40-50k is a starvation wage. By the way, unless you are making at least 60k a year in the valley, you are not making ends meet unless you share lodging with half a dozen people.

Some companies really are hiring H1Bs to do jobs or which there exist barely any qualified americans and I have no problem with that. I have met many brilliant french, russian and indian programmers on the job personally and I dont begrudge them their eventual citizenship. The problem is the other 95 percent that are being brought over to create a glut in the labor market.
 
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