You're wrong, Mr. President

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Dear Rabbi,

I think it is very "high road" to wish to defend one's society and one's culture against invaders and lawbreakers. If you have a more enlightened way of doing that I'm sure we would all benefit from your wisdom. So would President Bush. Moral unction is cheap and easy. All sovereign nations desire to preserve the integrity of their borders and their citizenry. That's about as basic as it gets.
 
Most of all I am disgusted with the people in the US that invite the practice of illegally entering our country. They do so by offering benifits for the practice. Those that offer those benifits are not authorized to do so by are laws or by the majority of our people. They do it for greed in the form of getting cheap labor, or for what they feel is their moral high ground, with disregard for the welfare of their neigbors and citizens.
The citizens, that along with their forefathers made this country into what it is. The citizens who are responsible for providing benifits that others seem to have no trouble giving away as if they themselves were the sole providers of them.

I have less of a problem with those that take advantage of that situation by entering our country illegally. I know many are simply looking for a better life , and are willing to work hard for it. The problem however is that their first act (entering our country without permission) , is an illegal act. If your willing to start your presents in our country with breaking our laws to get here, then why should I welcome you with open arms ?

We DO have a legal immigration system don't we ??

I want a better life for myself and my family also - does that give me the right to break the law ?
 
I want a better life for myself and my family also - does that give me the right to break the law ?

Do you carry concealed in places that are forbidden to carry, in order to protect yourself and your family? If the answer is yes, then you have answered your own question.
 
Interesting comparison Rabbi ? The answer to your question is no , I do not carry other than within the law.

Now answer my question .
 
Rabbi,

Are we to assume your primary moral position then is "Family first, law second?"

That's either pure tribalism or pure Corleone. Which is it?

Doesn't sound very high road to me, but maybe I'm missing something.
 
Its family here first

Sorry thats the way i am wired. Although i am not apologising for it.
1 family
2 country
3 neighbors

We DO have a legal immigration system don't we ??
Yep and if your a white western european you have priority.
If your offwhite latino or asian your not getting in.
My wife couldnt even get a tourist visa.

I think it is very "high road" to wish to defend one's society and one's culture against invaders and lawbreakers.

Culture? What culture? Bespeak this culture your defending. Are you scared of forced pinatas at birthday parties? Maybe legislation for 1 hour siestas.
Wxactly what do you mean by defending culture? Is that in the constitution?
 
Yep and if your a white western european you have priority.
If your offwhite latino or asian your not getting in.
My wife couldnt even get a tourist visa.

Well, first I am not sure that is true , however, if it is, then work to change the law .

Circumventing , and or breaking the law is not moral high ground in my opinion. To incourage it ,or reward it, is not my idea of a solution.

There are a host of laws that I don't like or don't believe in. That does not give me the right to not obey them. I can't pick and choose what laws I will obey, and neither should anyone else.
 
So illegal aliens are breaking the law. Great. Now Pres. Bush wants to change the law so they are not breaking the law. Why does anyone have a problem with that?
I suspect they dont. I suspect they have a problem with "furriners" coming over here and "taking their jobs" like jobs have titles or deeds or something that they belong to certain people.
This is competition. If someone can do the same job for less money, why is that a problem? If you want to get rid of illegal immigration do the following:
1) Get rid of the minimum wage.
2) Get rid of unemployment insurance past say 26 weeks
3) Get rid of welfare except for people who demonstrably cannot work.
4) Get rid of unions
5) Tax health insurance benefits as the salary they are.
 
So illegal aliens are breaking the law. Great. Now Pres. Bush wants to change the law so they are not breaking the law. Why does anyone have a problem with that?
I suspect they dont.

I suspect that this thread was started for just that reason . Some of us have a problem with that !

So now people are in this country illegaly and Bush wants to overlook that . I have a problem with that. For what reason - cheap labor ? Seems that way. Who benifits from cheap labor ? Not the citizen working man/woman .

Not the citizen vet who fought (and died) for this country so that you can give it away as you please .
 
Not the citizen vet who fought (and died) for this country so that you can give it away as you please .

"give it away" to whom? Other citizens? Give what away exactly?

If I hire someone they do a job and I pay them. How is that "giving" anything away? It is a free exchange of labor and money.
 
This is competition. If someone can do the same job for less money, why is that a problem? If you want to get rid of illegal immigration do the following:
1) Get rid of the minimum wage.
2) Get rid of unemployment insurance past say 26 weeks
3) Get rid of welfare except for people who demonstrably cannot work.
4) Get rid of unions
5) Tax health insurance benefits as the salary they are.
Not exactly. Illegal immi. . . .'cuse me, criminal immigration, is a function of the total cost of government (feds, state, local) imposed on the American worker in a world where the federales have engaged in agreements where labor from less expensive parts of the world are encouraged to immigrate into the US. To focus on the wage difference is to enjoy the odor of an aged red herring.

Add to your list of "get rid of's. . . " the following:
--separate healthcare from employment. Taxing benefits is part of the proble.
--Neuter the EPA. One of the major reasons American companies flee the US is the cost of enviromental law.
--OSHA type laws increase the cost of production
--Throw a blanket over tort lawyers. Stop the tort bar from mining American corporations.
--Private retirement systems add an ongoing cost that is only recently being investigated.
--Tax corporations once, not twice as is now done.
--Simplify the tax code.
--Limit accounting requirements.

I could go on. These are only the tip of the iceburg. Every increase in the cost of doing business in the US over international levels will result in increasing criminal immigration AND outsourcing.

"Competition?" Yea, its competition with the American worker having an anvil strapped to his or her back.

I could work for a lot less IF I DIDN'T HAVE TO DONATE ALMOST 1/2 OF MY INCOME TO GOVERNMENT.
 
I voted for Bush, but he swore an oath to protect the Constitution and that means protecting American citizens from invasion. He keeps saying he doesn't condone lawbreaking, but there is a de facto policy to not enforce border control or to crack down on employers who are in violation of existing law. Who is kidding whom?

As for give-aways, someone is paying for the health, education, and social service costs of illegal aliens. It isn't the illegal aliens themselves and it isn't Mexico. That leaves...?
 
Well Rabbi , we seem to have a totaly differnt concept of what it means to be a citizen of the US.

"give it away" to whom? Other citizens? Give what away exactly?

For one thing , we are not talking about "other citizens" we are talking about illegaly present non-citizens .

Some of what we give away : Our medical care , out social security as mentioned earlier, our security as a nation, our tax dollars, our wage base which is tuned to our work history and productivity, and we give away our national identity and deminish the sacrifice made by those who fought for our freedom, our rights, our laws, and our country.

If you have something in you home that benifits me I am not allowed to come to your place and and make it mine. If you believe that the american people have not earned the benifits available to us ,and that it is OK for others to come here illegaly to reap the rewards of what we have earned, then I guess I am at odds with your thinking.

By hiring an illegal you may be getting a good deal for you as they may do the job well, and cheaper than your fellow citizens. You are however making your fellow citizens pay the difference in one way or another.
 
My only complaint about illegals

Is the fact i cannot compete with the wage levels they will work for.
I am out of a job directly as the result of illegal immigrants. This is the second time it has happened. The first time was when i was 18 and i made 3.75 cents an hour and was replaced by some one making 1.50 an hour. I even trained him.
I have a family now and lots of bills. 14.50 cents an hour is not a lot of money. My replacements make 8-10 dollars an hour. When i started the company had free health insurance. Now it is 65.00 a week for a family.
I worked there 3 years and never got a raise. But i got more an more responsibilitys. My work was well above average to excellent. I was one of the last making as much as i did to not get layed off.
It was easy to see what was happening. Illegal comes in, some one is getting layed off. Permanent.
Company expanded twice in 3 years when i was there. They werent losing money.

Company Name: Wiza Industries Inc.
Firm Type: Exporter, Private Company, Headquarters Location
Location: United States
Phone: (414)422-9100
Fax: USA (262)679-0921
Employees (Company Information): 175
Revenue (Company Information): $16.30 M SALES
Fiscal Year End: 31-DEC-03
Year Founded: 1979
Primary SIC: Industrial Machinery, Not Elsewhere Classified
Description: Manufacturing: Machine shop: CNC machining, grinding, boring, cutting, lathe and mill work; assembl...
Last Updated: 11-NOV-04

JZEP co-invested with five different partners in five traditional mezzanine deals to support the acquisitions by various equity sponsors of M/C Communications LLC (medical education) Morton Industrial Group, Inc. (metal components), Totes Isotoner (cold weather and rain products), Wiza Industries LLC (precision machinery ) and Liberty Tax Service (tax return preparer). The returns are 14-16% contractual with small equity co-investments or entitlements.
 
When i started the company had free health insurance

"Free health insurance" is like a free lunch. Aint no such thing.

Well Rabbi , we seem to have a totaly differnt concept of what it means to be a citizen of the US.

I guess so. Start lobbying your congressmen for claymores and moats for the borders and I'll encourage mine to pass Pres. Bush's proposals.
 
Wrong

When i started the company had free health insurance
"Free health insurance" is like a free lunch. Aint no such thing.

THe insurance was part of my pay. Taking it away was effectively a 1.40 pay cut. If i wished to have my family insured, the premiums now had to come out of my pocket.
 
I guess so. Start lobbying your congressmen for claymores and moats for the borders and I'll encourage mine to pass Pres. Bush's proposals.

I'll do just that Rabbi --- I don't need a cheap housekeeper at the expense and the hard work and sacrifice of my fellow citizens . I also put some faith in the legal system of imigration rather than incouraging criminal activity to get inside our boarders.
 
Oh look, the nice Mexican Government...

has apparently published a guide for their citizens on with tips and advice on how to cross the border and live here illegally with our drawing notice to themselves.

-------

MEXICO CITY - The Mexican government is giving out a colorful new comic book with advice for migrants, but immigration-control advocates worry that some of the tips may encourage illegal border crossers.

The 32-page book, The Guide for the Mexican Migrant, was published in December by Mexico's Foreign Ministry. Using simple language, the book offers safety information for border crossers, a primer on their legal rights and advice on living unobtrusively in the United States.

Dramatic drawings show undocumented immigrants wading into a river, running from the U.S. Border Patrol and crouching near a hole in a border fence. On other pages, they hike through a desert with rock formations reminiscent of Arizona and are caught by a stern-faced Border Patrol agent.

"This guide is intended to give you some practical advice that could be of use if you have made the difficult decision to seek new work opportunities outside your country," the book says.

Continues here: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0101Comic01.html

---------------

Golly, thats SOOOO nice of 'em..

:fire: :cuss:
 
I think the guide was to prevent loss of life.

I'm sure that is true - I am also sure that the book gives a wink to those who want to cross illegaly into the US. There is a strong monitary reason for the Mexican government to incourage migrants to come to the US. A lot of money flows back into Mexico as a result. And hey - if the US gives out free medical care and other benifits to the migrants, then the Mexican government doesn't have to take care of their own. It's a win - win for them.


The Mexican government produces a similar book aimed at Central American immigrants who try to enter Mexico illegally. The book covers much of the same information about legal rights and repeats many of the warnings. It even shows a group of migrants struggling to breathe inside a truck.

But that book doesn't give the same kind of safety tips on crossing the border or advise immigrants on how to live peacefully in Mexico.
 
I think the guide was to prevent loss of life.

You got to be kidding, this comic book has illegals as superheroes
going out to help there country, Mexico holds classes on how to
cross and what to do here in signing up for benefits.

Again, illegals help only the rich in Mexico and here. The Mexican governemt
care not about the illegals they are simply an income source for the rich,
in many ways they are slaves on both sides.
 
I was in Mexico City for a conference, back in 1977. We were told that at that time, Mexico City was growing at a rate of a Dallas a year. The population then was equal to that of the whole country at the time of the 1910 revolution.

Were it not for their export of some dozen-million or more people to the US, and were it not for the money sent back to Mexico, that country would have gone again into bloody revolution twenty years ago...

Around 1985, a wetback kid of 18 who showed up at my place and who I "worked" for a few days, told me that yeah, there was plenty of work in Mexico City. The trouble was, a day's work wouldn't pay for a day's food.

Great system they have, otro la'o del rio...

Art
 
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