I am looking at getting a civil war era rifle. I had thought about an 1861 Springfield; but they seem to be a bit expensive. Which is more accurate or has more advantages; a Zouave rifle or an Enfield? I like the looks of the Zouave; but wasn't sure if it was as accurate as an Enfield. Thanks.
Zouave vs. Enfield rifle?
- Thread starter DavidB2
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Voodoochile
Member
I had a Navy Arms Zuave with the 3 grove rifling & it was superb in accuracy when I was shooting N-SSA.
sackettboys
Member
I have shot both the Zouave and the '53 Enfield (3 band 39" barrel) in competition. I like the looks of the '53 Enfield but that long barrel gets wobbly after shooting alot. Got rid of the Enfield years but still have my Zouave that I bought in 1974. I replaced the barrel with one from Numerich Arms that has 8 lands & grooves and she shoots great.
Smokin_Gun
Member
I still have my CVA 1863 Remington Zouave .58 and still easily shoots to 300 yards accurately. Also used it for Metalic Silouette shoots with 40 rounds per match.
Mike OTDP
Member
If you are looking for a serious shooter, head over to the N-SSA board at http://www.n-ssa.org/phpbb/
They have the most expertise with the rifle-musket that is to be had.
Both guns can be made to shoot well.
They have the most expertise with the rifle-musket that is to be had.
Both guns can be made to shoot well.
Hawkeye748
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Mike has steered you right. The N-SSA web site also has a for sale section on the board. You can often pick up a good used gun with a target load already worked up.
I own and have shot both Zouaves and Enfields, 2 and 3 band. They are back up guns now. They are Zoli Zouaves and First Generation Parker Hale Enfields. These shoot great. These are no longer made but you can still find them in good to great shape used.
The New Italians can all be made to shoot as Mike said. It just takes a bit of tune up, work up and finding the right Bullet Mould for your gun. These things can be particular sometimes.
I own and have shot both Zouaves and Enfields, 2 and 3 band. They are back up guns now. They are Zoli Zouaves and First Generation Parker Hale Enfields. These shoot great. These are no longer made but you can still find them in good to great shape used.
The New Italians can all be made to shoot as Mike said. It just takes a bit of tune up, work up and finding the right Bullet Mould for your gun. These things can be particular sometimes.
I am not particularly familiar with the Zuave, but although specs. with the 2-band Enfield may appear similar consider the following:
Check the butt plate shape. The Enfield has a straight plate while that on the Zuave as I have seen is crescent. This may have a bearing on your comfort depending on the position being fired from.
I think the Enfield may have a straighter stock. Here in the UK we shoot Enfields competitively out to 800 yards. With a larger drop and as distances extend and elevations increase then head placement on the stock to obtain good contact can become an issue.
The rearsight on the Zuave is I believe closer to the eye than on the Enfield. Depending on your eye sight this can have an impact on sight picture and be less clearly defined.
If you choose the Enfield (although there will also be elements that apply to the Zuave) see the article on Managing The Enfield on my web site.
David
Check the butt plate shape. The Enfield has a straight plate while that on the Zuave as I have seen is crescent. This may have a bearing on your comfort depending on the position being fired from.
I think the Enfield may have a straighter stock. Here in the UK we shoot Enfields competitively out to 800 yards. With a larger drop and as distances extend and elevations increase then head placement on the stock to obtain good contact can become an issue.
The rearsight on the Zuave is I believe closer to the eye than on the Enfield. Depending on your eye sight this can have an impact on sight picture and be less clearly defined.
If you choose the Enfield (although there will also be elements that apply to the Zuave) see the article on Managing The Enfield on my web site.
David
Mike OTDP
Member
FWIW, I've been shooting a Parker-Hale Enfield 2-bander for 32 years. Nice piece.
bonza
Member
The Zouave is stocked differently to the Enfields & have a very different feel/fit for some people. I know I can't shoot an Enfield for more than half a dozen shots without getting a lump on my cheekbone. The Zouave is stocked more like the Springfield, & it's sights are similar too. Also, the Zouave has a nice heavy barrel, much heavier than the Springfields & quite a bit more so than the Enfields, which I believe aids accuracy. I have two Zouaves, a EOA replica & an original Remington.
Phantom Captain
Member
Also,
Just so you are aware. It's been researched and researched but never documented that any Zouave rifles were ever issued to troops during the war. They were definitely made and received by the Govt but were never issued. Just wanted to let you know in case that's an issue for you and you wanted something that was historically issued and used during the war.
Just so you are aware. It's been researched and researched but never documented that any Zouave rifles were ever issued to troops during the war. They were definitely made and received by the Govt but were never issued. Just wanted to let you know in case that's an issue for you and you wanted something that was historically issued and used during the war.
AdmiralB
Member
I spent some time looking at rifles at Dixie last month. Wound up liking the Zouave and the 1858 (2-band) Enfields the best.
The Zouave barrel is a little heavier (the 2-band Enfield has a heavier barrel than the 3-band, but not as heavy as the Zouave). Sights are similar to 1861 Springfield.
The Enfield has a better sight, and IMO looks better (don't care for all the brass on the Zouave, nor the redundant patchbox...looks like a pre-historic pimp rifle!). The Euroarms version of the Enfield also has five-groove rifling.
FWIW, at least at Dixie, the Euroarms guns seemed a little nicer than the Armi Sports.
The Zouave barrel is a little heavier (the 2-band Enfield has a heavier barrel than the 3-band, but not as heavy as the Zouave). Sights are similar to 1861 Springfield.
The Enfield has a better sight, and IMO looks better (don't care for all the brass on the Zouave, nor the redundant patchbox...looks like a pre-historic pimp rifle!). The Euroarms version of the Enfield also has five-groove rifling.
FWIW, at least at Dixie, the Euroarms guns seemed a little nicer than the Armi Sports.
Best place to look at one?
I am hoping that I might see one of these firearms at a Gun Show or Gun Store (San Antonio area). The aspect of the stock shape is an issue that I have heard about from several people. Although they got used to the Enfield straighter stocks; they were not as comfortable to shoot. I have decided to go with either the Zouave or the 1861 Springfield. My hesitancy with the Springfield is the high maintenance involved in dealing with the bright barrel. It looks great; but I wonder how labor intensive it is to keep shiny.
I am hoping that I might see one of these firearms at a Gun Show or Gun Store (San Antonio area). The aspect of the stock shape is an issue that I have heard about from several people. Although they got used to the Enfield straighter stocks; they were not as comfortable to shoot. I have decided to go with either the Zouave or the 1861 Springfield. My hesitancy with the Springfield is the high maintenance involved in dealing with the bright barrel. It looks great; but I wonder how labor intensive it is to keep shiny.
Mike OTDP
Member
For a serious shooter, take the Zouave over the 1861. Or go with a Mississippi rifle.
All the two-band muskets have thicker, more accurate barrels than the three-banders.
All the two-band muskets have thicker, more accurate barrels than the three-banders.
CAMPBELL49T
Member
The Captain is right, I read about the muskets of the Civil War a few months back. Somewhere between 1,000-2,000 were made towards the end of the war. They were never issued to the troops, the war was over by then. Not one trooper was issued one. They were never fired in the war at all. When I first got into the black powder. I thought I could do both 1820's- 1840' and the C.W, I like the 1820's better. Plus one or the other, to expensive for both. I ended up with to Zouave's I got in trade. Had a hard time selling them, the Civil War boys have to have the real thing. The new Zouave I trade for a 2nd model Colt Dragoon, never been fired. I think no I know I came out head. The Colt is a good looking revolver. If you decide to buy one and don't like it you will have a hard time selling it. OH I ALMOST FOR GOT WILL SELL MY 3 BAND ENFIELD ON FRIDAY 375. ALL I GOT LEFT IS A BIG 58CAL PISTOL WITH A DETACHABLE STOCK AND HAND MADE HOLSTER. I UNDERSTAND THE WERE OFFICERS PISTOLS AT THE START OF THE WAR, FOR THE SOUTH. GOING TO KEEP THAT ONE.
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BHP FAN
Member
Campbell,Dixie says you guys are right. However,that they ARE NSSA approved. Is this because the possibility that they WERE used exists? Researching the Rodgers and Spencer,I found that a few may have made it to the battlefield in 1865 through private purchase [common amongst officers at the time] and that at least one,documented specimen DID. Could the Zouve be in a similar catagory?
''PR0853 DIXIE ZOUAVE RIFLE $525.00
Click to enlarge
Made by Remington Arms in 1862-1865 with a total quantity of 12,501, the "Zouave" was one of the best made and designed military arms of the Civil War era. There is no record however of the Zouave being issued and/or used during the war. This reproduction features a one-piece European walnut fullstock 44" long with satin finish, 2 3/4" drop and 13 1/4" trigger pull. The 58 caliber blued barrel is 33" long, tapered round 1 1/8" at breech to 7/8" at muzzle. Button rifled .005" deep, 1-66" twist, 3 lands measure .580" and 3 grooves measure .590". Front sight is blued steel base with blade, rear sight is blued steel with 2 flip-ups. Brass furniture, color casehardened lock marked with eagle and "US", two barrel bands, single trigger. Steel ramrod with tulip shaped head 10x32 thread. Bayonet stud ahead of nosecap. Percussion with 8-1mm nipple uses musket caps. Load with 60 grains FFg black and .575 patched round ball or .575 minie ball. Overall length is 49" and total weight is 9 1/2 lbs. N/SSA approved. Made by Euro Arms, Italy.
THIS PRODUCT CANNOT BE SHIPPED TO CANADA.
For seperate ordering we have the Zouave Sword Bayonet & Scabbard - stock number BE0224 and the Zouave Sling - stock number AL6750.
''PR0853 DIXIE ZOUAVE RIFLE $525.00
Click to enlarge
Made by Remington Arms in 1862-1865 with a total quantity of 12,501, the "Zouave" was one of the best made and designed military arms of the Civil War era. There is no record however of the Zouave being issued and/or used during the war. This reproduction features a one-piece European walnut fullstock 44" long with satin finish, 2 3/4" drop and 13 1/4" trigger pull. The 58 caliber blued barrel is 33" long, tapered round 1 1/8" at breech to 7/8" at muzzle. Button rifled .005" deep, 1-66" twist, 3 lands measure .580" and 3 grooves measure .590". Front sight is blued steel base with blade, rear sight is blued steel with 2 flip-ups. Brass furniture, color casehardened lock marked with eagle and "US", two barrel bands, single trigger. Steel ramrod with tulip shaped head 10x32 thread. Bayonet stud ahead of nosecap. Percussion with 8-1mm nipple uses musket caps. Load with 60 grains FFg black and .575 patched round ball or .575 minie ball. Overall length is 49" and total weight is 9 1/2 lbs. N/SSA approved. Made by Euro Arms, Italy.
THIS PRODUCT CANNOT BE SHIPPED TO CANADA.
For seperate ordering we have the Zouave Sword Bayonet & Scabbard - stock number BE0224 and the Zouave Sling - stock number AL6750.
Hawkeye748
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David,
If you want to get some hands on action before you buy, go to the N-SSA board and ask for PA Laake. He and others live in the San Antonio area. They have a range just west of San Antonio where they practice often. Very nice folks who would love to allow you to handle the various ones. They can also help you with all the ins and outs of making your gun shoot well. That bunch are some of the best shots you will find anywhere also. PA is also an excellent gun builder.
The reason that they are N-SSA approved is that they were in the arsenal prior to April 26, 1865. Most N-SSA folks shot originals back in the beginning of the N-SSA but it was becoming costly. With the 100th anniversery, those became too expense. In the early 60's, it was virtually the only reproduction available. It is sort of grandfathered in.
There is some recent evidence it may have been used but it is unconfirmed. I don't believe the original Remington 1863 was ever called the Zouave. This came along much later. I have been told it was a marketing ploy by Sears who sold this rifle in the 1960's.
If you want to get some hands on action before you buy, go to the N-SSA board and ask for PA Laake. He and others live in the San Antonio area. They have a range just west of San Antonio where they practice often. Very nice folks who would love to allow you to handle the various ones. They can also help you with all the ins and outs of making your gun shoot well. That bunch are some of the best shots you will find anywhere also. PA is also an excellent gun builder.
The reason that they are N-SSA approved is that they were in the arsenal prior to April 26, 1865. Most N-SSA folks shot originals back in the beginning of the N-SSA but it was becoming costly. With the 100th anniversery, those became too expense. In the early 60's, it was virtually the only reproduction available. It is sort of grandfathered in.
There is some recent evidence it may have been used but it is unconfirmed. I don't believe the original Remington 1863 was ever called the Zouave. This came along much later. I have been told it was a marketing ploy by Sears who sold this rifle in the 1960's.
BHP FAN
Member
Ah,so it's like the Rugers in SASS. Good to know.
CAMPBELL49T
Member
BHF FAN, You are more then right, when it goes back 100 or more years.
They didn't keep good records and depends on the Historions. It goes on the research and how they think it should be. All the wrighters of history have differant oppinions of History. I'am a muzzle loader, 1800-1840's. We can use cap and ball revolvers. I think it might of been the Rogers & Spencer. But' anything could of happened back then. They keeped record, but some of them are kind a fuzzy.
Zouave had a good chance of being used. The reinactors don't care for them.
I tried selling mine on Civil War forms and a few others. That is why I trade it, for the Colt 2nd Dragoon. And I love that 4 pounder. I want to get the 1st and 3rd now. And some walkers.
There is a gun show going on in the Springs. I'm going to it in a little bit.
I think this is one of the better forms. I have learned a lot.
You all have a good day
They didn't keep good records and depends on the Historions. It goes on the research and how they think it should be. All the wrighters of history have differant oppinions of History. I'am a muzzle loader, 1800-1840's. We can use cap and ball revolvers. I think it might of been the Rogers & Spencer. But' anything could of happened back then. They keeped record, but some of them are kind a fuzzy.
Zouave had a good chance of being used. The reinactors don't care for them.
I tried selling mine on Civil War forms and a few others. That is why I trade it, for the Colt 2nd Dragoon. And I love that 4 pounder. I want to get the 1st and 3rd now. And some walkers.
There is a gun show going on in the Springs. I'm going to it in a little bit.
I think this is one of the better forms. I have learned a lot.
You all have a good day
CAMPBELL49T
Member
Made a mistake on the R.S. revolver. It was not used during the early 1800's.
How ever they did have a cap and ball revolver. I think it was the Spiller and Burr. I need to check this out more. Some of you may know for sure.
How ever they did have a cap and ball revolver. I think it was the Spiller and Burr. I need to check this out more. Some of you may know for sure.
Hawkeye748
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First cap and ball revolver was the Colt Patterson. Came out in the late 1830's. Spiller and Burr came much later. Pepper boxes came along about the same time. These involved multiple barrels revolving along an axis.
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CAMPBELL49T
Member
Hawkeye, Thanks I Didn't know for sure. I knew someone on THR would
know for sure.............
know for sure.............
BHP FAN
Member
There were at least two types of flint lock revolvers in use before the percussion models ever came along...and I've even seen a sixteenth century matchlock revolving carbine [hand indexed] from India.So,it was not really a ''new'' idea.Hawkeye's right about the Patterson being the first practical, production model percussion revolver,though.Pretty advanced for 1836.
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