Zreed's rifle dilemma

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The Grand Baboon

The Grand Baboon

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So, let me start off by saying that I'm not the most experience shooter in the world. I don't have the wisdom of the ages to fall back on ;)

But, here's my problem. I have a Remington 700 SPS chambered in 308. Winchester that I use for elk here in Utah. I started reloading for it a year ago and I finally was able to take my first elk last December with some of my first reloads. When reading through the Nosler reloading guide there is a section talking about how deep the bullet should be seated in relation to the lands and groves. When my 180gr Noslers are seated to the proper depth (just a few thousandths of an inch off) the OAL of the cartridge is too long to fit in the internal magazine. So, I essentially have a 1 MOA gun that's single shot. I only needed one shot to take that elk I mentioned earlier, but I like having the piece of mind with four extra shots in the magazine.

I want to sell the rifle. But I don't know where to look to get what I want in a new rifle. I was personally thinking a 700 BDL in 308. with a long action instead of the standard short action but I don't know if that's even possible. To be brief, I'll just list the specifications that I'm looking for and maybe yall can nudge me in the right direction.

  • Chambered in 308
  • Bolt Action
  • Open sights
  • Able to fit my long reloads in the internal magazine
  • or that it has a much shorter throat length and doesn't need such a long OAL
 
So lemme get this straight in my head - you're fixing to sell the rifle rather than seat the bullets deeper and see how accurate it is at that point, or try a different game bullet?
 
You can get exactly what you want, but I'm not sure you can get it factory. Buy the gun you want in 30-06 and rebarrel it to 308. Savage bolt actions lend themselves to his type of tinkering very well due to the jam nut on the barrel.

The cool thing about this is the tremendous availability of long action donor guns.
 
rbernie said:
So lemme get this straight in my head - you're fixing to sell the rifle rather than seat the bullets deeper and see how accurate it is at that point, or try a different game bullet?
Click to expand...

I've already tried different bullets at different depths. I can't go much further with the 180gr Noslers because If I do, I start crushing powder. The 180gr Noslers with their current OAL have given me the best patterns at 100 yards too.

armarsh said:
You can get exactly what you want, but I'm not sure you can get it factory.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's part of the problem. As a college student I don't have an incredibly large budget to work with.
 
Hmmm. There has to be a shorter bullet that shoots well from your rifle. If not, dump the 308 and just get a 30-o6.
 
Abel said:
Hmmm. There has to be a shorter bullet that shoots well from your rifle. If not, dump the 308 and just get a 30-o6.
Click to expand...
I've actually entertained that thought of getting a 30-06 instead. I've heard that, and correct me if I'm wrong (which I probably am), but that the 308. is inherently a much more accurate cartridge than the 30-06. Something about competition shooters complaining about the 308. back in the day and wanting it to get it put in a different shooting class or something.
 
Okey-doke. Just asking'. :)

Frankly, I think that part of the issue is that the 308 isn't really optimized for 180gr bullets, and most folk find 150gr-165gr better suited to the capacity and dimensions of 308. I'd personally move to 30-06 if you're looking to get a new rifle, since it handles heavier thirty-cal bullets better than 308 and is no less accurate inherently than a 308.

Having said that, it'll probably cost the same whether you rebarrel or buy new, with the advantage that a rebarrel will be exactly what you want. If you have to change, I'd strongly look at rebarreling.

But then again, if it was me I'd just switch to a different bullet and save my pennies.
 
I have also heard that the 308 is "inherently" more accurate than the 'o6. But who cares? The 'o6 has a proven track record that speaks for itself. There are plenty of sub-MOA 30-o6's out there. How accurate do you need to be to kill an elk the size of a pony?
 
Seat the bullets to max mag length and leave the bullet depth alone. Try different powders and different charges until you get a good load. Or try different bullets. You WILL find an acceptable load unless there's something wrong with your gun.
If you actually have an underlying desire to buy another gun that's really driving this compulsion, then man up and buy one, but you won't find a .308 with a longer magazine unless you do what others suggested and modify a long action.
 
with a long action instead of the standard short action but I don't know if that's even possible.
Click to expand...

Zreed,

This is nothing personal, but you would be nuts to sell that rifle.

First to answer your question, yes there are long action rifles for the 308, the Savage Axis is the first one that comes to mind. All the Axis models are long action. But it is not if it is a short or long action that matters, it is the length of your mag that is the problem and that will be the same no matter who's rifle you use.

But that's not the point:

A) You will lose money by selling the 700 SPS.

B) The OAL stated by Nosler is just a guide line not a fact set in stone.

C) The max OAL for the 308 is 2.820 inches, and your magazine should be able to handle that length, if not then Remington goofed up.

D) No matter what rifle you get, if it has an external (removeable) mag it will only hold rounds that are 2.820 inches. Internal box mags are cut a little larger.

E) Setting the OAL slightly shorter than what you currently are using will not make a difference in accuracy but will work in your mag.

F) Using a different bullet that falls within the correct OAL of your rifle will also solve your problem (save you from having to buy a new rifle.) And should be just as accurate. A 165 grain bullet will kill an elk just as dead as a 180 grain bullet.

G) Reloading is all about finding the best settings for your rounds for YOUR rifle and that means the RIGHT powder, bullet, OAL, cartrage trim lenght, weight, etc.....

H) As to your comment on powder, use a different powder so you will not get a compressed load, or just get use to using a longer drop tube to pack your powder in tighter, or learn how to crimp your cartrages so the powder will not back your bullet out.

USE THE CORRECT OAL and your problems will go away. If they don't then it's a problem with your mag, not your rifle.

Jim
 
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zreed042 Give us your cartidge lenghts . What lenght are you loading to. What powder and amount of it. Noslers 180gr oal is 2.810 with most at a lenght of 2.80 and shorter for nosler bullets.

What is the difference in OAL between your reloaded noslers info and what your mag will cycle. 308 OAL should not be more than 2.810 unless you have a match single shoot with certain bullets. You might be putting way to much effort into loading to a lenght you don't need and a max powder that hards on cases, rifle and accuracy.
 
Work up some 165-168 gr loads. I'm sure you will find something at least as accuate and the elk will never notice the difference. Or experiment with other 180 gr loads.

You work up loads to fit the rifle, not the other way around.
 
hardluk1 said:
zreed042 Give us your cartidge lenghts . What lenght are you loading to. What powder and amount of it. Noslers 180gr oal is 2.810 with most at a lenght of 2.80 and shorter for nosler bullets.

What is the difference in OAL between your reloaded noslers info and what your mag will cycle. 308 OAL should not be more than 2.810 unless you have a match single shoot with certain bullets. You might be putting way to much effort into loading to a lenght you don't need and a max powder that hards on cases, rifle and accuracy.
Click to expand...
OAL is 3.00"
I'm using 42.5 grains of Aliant RL-15
The bullet is a 180gr Nosler Ballistic Tip (green)

Thanks for the help guys.
 
I'd push you bullet back to max magazine length, which will be somewhere between 2.810 and the 3.0 you're at now. Then I'd find a way to crimp the bullet, something like the LEE "factory crimp die" or similar. I suspect this will give you the same pressure and delayed bullet movement as seating on (or immediately off of) the lands. The Nosler buller doesn't have a cannelure, which makes bullet movement on ignition reliant solely on neck tension, which isn't always as reliable as we'd like. Especially if you're using a thin walled case like Winchester or such.

My .308 shoots its pet load into tiny little groups, as long as I use 7.62 cases. Commercial cases vary in wall thickness and therefore case capacity. Pressure is based (partly) on how much room you have to stuff the powder and the back end of the bullet.

Crimping ensures that the pressure is to a relatively consistent level when the bullet begins to move from the neck.
 
My FN Winchester 70 308 shoots my oversized SST loads just fine, really nice rifle too. That said I would not worry too much about "crushing" the powder, I have several loads that are compressed (up to 114%!) and they work just fine. I don't load much 180gr in 308 I find that my 30-06 works better with bullets heavier then 168gr.
 
Perhaps have the barrel cut about an inch at the chamber and have it rechambered with a throat that meets your needs. Bet you could do it for about $100. The Remmy 700 is pretty easy to work on. If your billfold has enough paper in it, maybe have your smith blueprint your action, lap the lugs etc. while you are at it.

My $.02 :)
 
zreed042 You do realize you are loading well beyound max lenght. That power does compress . You do need to shortin your OAL to 2.810. Also be sure the data you are useing is with the nosler ballistic tip bullet and not a sierra or speer or,,,

Contact nosler and ask what your bullet should be off the lands and grooves for reloading. See what your rifle will cycle for lenght it should be less than 2.811. Read up on how to check for chambers max lenght.
http://www.larrywillis.com/OAL.html

. Use the jump they give you to get a starting lenght for your loads knowing you need to be tween what your rifle will function with and what the manufactor would like for the bullet. Example barnes ttsx like to be 50th off the L&G. Sierra 175 btsp is .20ths i think. I am also not a big fan of 180gr bullets over all in a 308 except for LR play. Try to pisk up a 165gr sst for deer or barnes tsx or ttsx for elk . Or atleast drop a weight with the NBT.
 
Would seem to me that it might be cheaper to just hunt with commercial ammo or reload differently than your current configuration.
 
Look at the configuration of your bullet. With your problem, there are two critical points.

1. The "shoulder" of the bullet, where the cylinderical section stops and the ogive (curve to the nose) begins. That's the part you want near the lede.

2. The tip of the bullet -- which determines overall length and which makes it difficult to seat a bullet out into the lede and still load through the magazine.

Some bullets of the same weight have different lengths to the shoulder and tip. You want a bullet with the shoulder well forward and a shorter tip. You might consider a round-nose bullet.
 
zreed, if you just have to have that special length cartridge in your chamber there is a simple solution. Insert 3 cartridges in the magazine box with a overall length that fit into your magazine box, and then load your special length cartridge directly into the chamber. That way you can fire the special cartridge first and then have 3 follow up cartridges just in case you need them. Also, there is nothing wrong with some compression of the powder or loading 165 grain bullets for the follow up shot. Shooter
 
Ok, I'll try seating the bullets I have now a few tenths of an inch deeper. If I do choose to move down to a 168gr bullet as some have mentioned, what would be a good choice of bullet for elk? Also, is the 168gr "better" than the 180gr for rate if twist found in Rem 700s?

Again, thanks for the help folks. Sorry about not being terribly active in this thread. l had a few exams and projects due earlier in the week.
 
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