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"Zumbo" revisited - why can't we seem to repeat that epic act of activism?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Green Lantern, Jul 12, 2008.

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  1. Green Lantern

    Green Lantern Member

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    Just something I was thinking about today. Looking back at the massive impact we had when we concentrated on Mr. Zumbo for his..."unjudicicous" comments about black rifles...

    Well...why can't we do the same thing with other antis*?

    *Nothing against Mr. Z currently, as he seems to have "repented..."

    But one thinks that if we collectively could get him sacked almost overnight...we could do other things.

    But, maybe not? Here are the facts as I see them in the Zumbo affair:

    It happened VERY quickly. In fact, I can't claim any credit for Zumbo's fall from grace. I didn't jump right on things, and it was all over with before I could collect my thoughts and put MY $0.02 in....

    Not EVERY gun-owner was "on board" with it...Then and now, not everyone in the firearms community agrees with how Zumbo was treated. Though it would seem that the majority feel as I do: You're entitled to your opinion, but when that opinion wrongly condemns and damns a group of people...expect to face consequences.

    Ultimately what I feel may have had the most to do with it: It was "gun-related" businesses that employed Zumbo and thus sacked him. Could that have been why it was done, and done fast? Do gun-related businesses have more respect for people from the "gun culture" as a whole?

    After all - there are plenty of hunting magazines and plenty of gun/ammo makers out there...

    But so to, are there plenty of insert providers of product/service provided by "antis" as well... Hmm, hmm, and hmm.

    *******************
    I guess there are plenty of examples out there of people/companies out there that NEED "Zumboing" but for whatever reason, we haven't been able to get results. The bit where Pepsi honored a noted anti-gun activist on the back of their Doritos bags comes to mind. For that matter, I guess I could just search for "Zumbo" for more if needed...

    Whether or not you agree with it, you can't argue that the ouster of one Jim Zumbo was one of the finest examples of what us "gun people" can DO when we work together on one goal.

    And regardless of Heller, Castle Doctrine, CCW, et cetera...for us to protect our right to keep and bear arms, I feel strongly that this is something we need to be able to do AGAIN when needed. So, I feel it would behoove us to know exactly how!
     
  2. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    Mr. Zumbo worked for Outdoor Life Magazine and had Remington Arms Company as one of their dominant sponsors. When the uproar occurred, both Outdoor Life and Remington were faced with a difficult choice. They made the hard business choice for the benefit of their customer base. I understand that and I know Mr. Zumbo understood that as well.

    I feel sure he felt betrayed. How could he not feel that way? He misjudged the impact of EBR owners have in the marketplace as well in relation to his employment or sponsors. Firearms manufacture, marketing and sale is a businees.

    Mr. Zumbo was quite successful in the outdoor writing industry and is one of the few that actually could earn a good living doing it. His career was lynched for his comments and there was a great deal of piling on.

    I doubt gun owners or 2A supporters will have the kind of impact they did with Mr. Zumbo with most politicans or people who truly are trying to bring about legislation that restricts firearm ownership. I'm glad the NRA takes the lead in that front as they bring to bear collective influence of gun owners.
     
  3. bogie

    bogie Member

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    Because it is a lot easier to tear out the guts of our own, than to put the same effort into a corporate or legislative body.
     
  4. Green Lantern

    Green Lantern Member

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    Care to elaborate?

    The only two ways I can understand that would be that:

    1) One man is easier to focus on than MANY legislators...especially given that each gun owner really only has SIGNIFICANT "pull" with the ones s/he elects.

    2) Since Zumbo was arguably "one of us," there was more anger coming from gun owners who felt betrayed by Zumbo's comments...

    ...?
     
  5. yesit'sloaded

    yesit'sloaded Member

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    If I remember correctly, he referred to the AR15 as a "terrorist rifle". Calling gun owners terrorists is a no-no if you are a gun owner. We don't eat our own Bogie, rather we kick out the cannibals among us that would feed off of us for their own glory and profit. Ask Bill Ruger how that worked.
     
  6. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    The only good thing to come out of that whole affair for me personally was that it made me look closely at my attitudes regarding EBR's.
     
  7. Soybomb

    Soybomb Member

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    I think thats a no-brainer but of course, gun related companies make their money off gun owners. Gun owners are only a percent of the customers at other businesses. The local greenpeace chapter might write nasty letters to the nascar people about their polluting races but if they're not buying the tickets to start with who really cares?
     
  8. oldfart

    oldfart Member

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    There is one other thing: Outraged gun owners weren't required to do much to sink Zumbo's ship except perhaps type an e-mail or two. In most other cases they're expected to show up, demonstrate and type e-mails. We're basically a pretty lazy lot and more than a bit willing to let "the other guy" do the heavy lifting.
     
  9. Green Lantern

    Green Lantern Member

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    Heh, does seem pretty "duh-worthy" in retrospect...

    Still, maybe the key would be to reaching out to NON gun-owners to help on some things?

    Like I said, I was GOING to protest Zumbo. But I don't hunt, read Outdoor Life, nor have any particular preference for Remington arms or ammo.

    I would have told them that I MIGHT buy their products if they deal with Zumbo. In fact, I got a subscription to OL, and an 870 later on...:D
     
  10. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    Yeah, it really worked. A sizable proportion of the recommendations for a "new revolver" here on the forum is buy a Ruger. It really worked. Oh yeah... Smith & Wesson... locks, their sales don't show much effect either.
     
  11. RonE

    RonE Member

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    Ultimately what I feel may have had the most to do with it: It was "gun-related" businesses that employed Zumbo and thus sacked him. Could that have been why it was done, and done fast? Do gun-related businesses have more respect for people from the "gun culture" as a whole?

    It wasn't just "gun related", it was much deeper than that. Zumbo expressed an opinion that certain rifles had no place in the sporting/shooting/hunting environment. That went against the grain of hunting, shooting and sporting arms owners, including even people that might share the same opinion but recognized the right to hunt with anything you desired so long as you were sporting. Now, the companys that fired him or dropped him as their spokesman did so not only because of his published opinion but also because of the public outcry.

    Here is why Zumbo got fired and more or less run out of town on a rail... The public outcry against him was not the public per se, but rather the gun owning, shooting, collecting, hunting public which were the entire customer base for the industry that let him go. The entire customer base. Yes, there were gun owners that though it was no big deal and perhaps in hind sight, it might not have been but the right to keep and bare arms is dear and when one opens by his opinion a doubt about the need to own, keep or bare any particular arm, the people who want nothing more than to protect thier livelyhood by satisfying their customer base had to do something and do something fast.
     
  12. jaholder1971

    jaholder1971 Member

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    Zumbo was a Fudd, plain ans simple.

    It really doesn't help your career when you bash advertisor's products: Bushmaster, Armalite, Rock River and REmington all make AR's and spend lots of $$$ on advertising.

    Yeah, take a look at Remington's new semi auto varmint gun and ask why they cut him loose?
     
  13. AndyC

    AndyC Member

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    For me, it was because it was a shooter, not an anti, that was trying to throw EBR-owners like me under the bus and I'd had enough of that selfish, ignorant BS. Yeah, I felt massively betrayed and outraged.
     
  14. Robert Hairless

    Robert Hairless Member

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    Hey, let's be fair! Although the overwhelming number of gun owners are indeed lazy freeloaders, they are that way because they have principles.

    As I and others have pointed out frequently, there are about 80 million gun owners but only about 4 million members of the NRA. So 95% of gun owners are being carried by the 5% who give even minimal support to the major gun rights organization in this country.

    That is where the principles enter the picture. I enjoy the protests that follow posts like this one because each of those "principles" is a hoot. It's hard to pick a winner because just when I feel I've heard them all, there's at least one new one that's funnier than the rest.

    But in the end, after the flurry of principles, the fact remains that only 5% of gun owners in this country do more than talk. The other 95% are not people I would want on my side in a fight anyway.
     
  15. yesit'sloaded

    yesit'sloaded Member

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    The Ruger family no longer owns Ruger.
     
  16. Technosavant

    Technosavant Member

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    It isn't hard at all to convince Remington or other firearm related companies that gun owners are angry and they need to change things. If gun owners quit buying their stuff, they're hosed, plain and simple.

    However, Pepsi and other similar companies have FAR larger customer bases than those of active gun owners. We're not the vast majority of their sales. We're a blip in the market.

    And that's why it is harder to influence their policies.
     
  17. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    The Zumbo Affair.....

    I can give you some insight on what happened. I was in the Pat Rogers Carbine Course that Denny Hansen, Rich Lucibella and Pat set up for Jim Zumbo. I heard Jim Zumbo's side of the story directly from him at dinner at the end of training day one.

    I'll start with the posts I made in the staff forum at the time of the class:


    Day 2

    Day 3

     
  18. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't think that our activism would have been as successful with someone who wasn't one of our own. I do believe that the entire episode did a lot to unite various factions of the shooting community.

    And I honestly believe that Jim Zumbo understands that we have to all hang together or we'll surely hang separately.

    Jeff
     
  19. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    Thank you Jeff for posting that. I don't recall reading it over at TFL.
     
  20. Leif Runenritzer

    Leif Runenritzer Member

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    Smith and Wesson's betrayal had nothing to do with locks:

    "From 1987 to 2001 Tomkins PLC, a British company, owned Smith & Wesson. ... In March 2000, Smith & Wesson signed an agreement with the Clinton Administration in order to avoid lawsuits. The company agreed to numerous safety and design standards, as well as limits on the sale and distribution of their products. Gun clubs and gun rights groups responded to this agreement almost instantly by initiating large-scale boycotts of Smith & Wesson by refusing to buy their new products and flooding the firearms market with used S&W guns, cutting into their market share. ... On May 11, 2001, Saf-T-Hammer Corporation acquired Smith & Wesson Corp. from Tomkins PLC for US$15 million, a fraction of the US$112 million originally paid by Tomkins. Saf-T-Hammer also assumed US$30 million in debt, bringing the total purchase price to US$45 million." -Wikipedia

    Sounds like a win to me. Now i would happily buy a Smith and Wesson product.
     
  21. 22-rimfire

    22-rimfire Member

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    I know all that, but they still put on the locks today. The lock wouldn't stop me from choosing one of their firearms new. And Ruger still does not sell 20 round magazines for the Mini-14/30 except on a reduced basis primarily geared toward law enforcement needs. The only things that has changed with S&W is they have magazines larger than 10-round capacity I believe. I have never been interested in S&W pistols.

    The betrayal was by the Clinton Administration. To this day, I don't know how Bill Clinton ducked responsibility on the Waco affair. If George Bush did this, people would have been all over him.
     
  22. wheelgunslinger

    wheelgunslinger Member

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    Thanks for posting that, Jeff. It's always nice to have a primary source as opposed to reading something by some guy you don't know in a magazine.

    I think the whys about Zumbo have been covered pretty well here.
    I have a great respect for Mr. Zumbo since it was he and a couple of others that inspired me to stop driving nails for a living and pursue a degree so I could become a writer.

    It's an interesting situation though. Instead of instantly saying "wait, what?" to him about his blog, giving him a chance to retract and accepting his apology, we collectively burned him at the stake.

    If anything, I think that next time we need to exercise more restraint as a whole. Someone with Zumbo's skill and command of prose is an asset in a world increasingly looking for something worth reading on the web.

    As for antis, I think the same applies. Instantly dogpiling the loose tongues for an affront makes us look like what they think we are: a bunch of uneducated kneejerk reacting rednecks with guns.

    A measured and well crafted response will always be better, no matter the enemy.
     
  23. Green Lantern

    Green Lantern Member

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    -A fair point there. I for one remain a stalwart Ruger boycotter (though I'm optimistic about things currently), but I've seen whenever I mention it, I am VERY much in the minority...

    Which begs another question...Why did we almost unanimously condemn Zumbo for his ujustified statement, and yet at the same time almost unanimously* "overlook" Bill Ruger's?

    *Well, that's MY view, though I could be wrong. And maybe more people have let their animosity towards the company die along with Bill Ruger. Myself, I'd prefer some kind of official "disavowment" of those statements before letting bygones be bygones, but anyway..

    You know, I take GREAT offense to any elitist that fancies me a criminal just because I desire to own STANDARD capacity magazines.

    Could it be because people liked their Ruger guns more than they liked Jim Zumbo's commentating?

    Do more people own Black Rifles today than "standard capacity" firearms (of ALL makes) then?
     
  24. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    I never could figure out the people who claim Zumbo is one of us. Zumbo is a hunter not a shooter. He isn't one of us he's just another FUD. His CYA halfhearted apology wasn't enough to make up for his statements either.
     
  25. jaholder1971

    jaholder1971 Member

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    In Vino, Veritas

    May he retire writing obituaries for the local PennyPower.
     
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