"Zumbo" revisited - why can't we seem to repeat that epic act of activism?

[22-rimfire]

The majority of the people throwing stones at Mr. Zumbo didn't even know who he was until he made his blunder. I read Outdoor Life and have for a long time, and yes, I hunt.

Most people didn't even know about Bill Ruger's contributions. Access to the internet and these forums have changed a great deal since 1990, even 1998. A lot changed in the 1990's. I was reading an article in a magazine about gun forums around 2005. I had internet access and I checked them out. Prior to that, I didn't even know they existed.

I bought my first Ruger handgun, a Mark II, in 1989. Then I bought a 10/22. Prior to that, I considered Ruger to make substandard or what I called 2nd Tier handguns. Back it up 10 years and I would not have even considered any Ruger firearm; I bought Colt and Smith & Wesson handguns because they were better and I could afford them.

Bill Ruger is dead. Let him rest.

Jerkface11 said: I never could figure out the people who claim Zumbo is one of us. Zumbo is a hunter not a shooter. He isn't one of us he's just another FUD. His CYA halfhearted apology wasn't enough to make up for his statements either.

I disagree with you. If a name fits....

 

[Z71]

I always thought old Jim Zumbo was a "hunting rights" man, and not a "gun rights" man.

I had read his work in outdoor life for years, and seen his outdoor channel show, and liked his style.

That said, I had met him in real life a couple times at hunting shows and he came off arrogant in person(which could be a bad day thing?). He just didn't come off as a person who cared much about anything except what was important to him personaly.

He stuck his foot in his mouth and paid the price. Did it to himself, and started making excuses. Right or wrong, he got what he got. He should be man enough to deal with it.

Now Imus is a whole different story............

 

[22-rimfire]

I think Mr. Zumbo was certainly more interested in hunting. He wrote primarily about hunting. But firearms are used to hunt with.

I have heard others say he was arrogant. That does not surprise me. That doesn't mean I would try to hurt him, but I doubt we would have gotten along very well.

The whole affair helped to unify hunters and shooters in their 2A beliefs. It also made outdoor writers cringe and take a hard look at what they had written in the past as none wanted to have their livelihood stripped from them over something like this. The ones that didn't particularly like EBR's in a hunting environment just stopped mentioning them and would not discuss them openly.

 

[Green Lantern]

I think that MOST of us would agree that there is nothing whatsoever wrong in NOT liking EBRs!

However, making the ridiculous claim that EBRs have no place in hunting...THAT is wrong.

 

[Z71]

I really didn't address the whole topic I guess.

As far as why shooters can't "Zumbo" the anti-gun crowd.

Well, I suppose we are doing it to an extent. I try my level best to not put a dollar in any business or corporation that presents itself as anti-gun or anti-second amendment.

I do email my displeasure about those topics whenever the opportunity presents. However the shooting public just don't have the "hitting power" against politicians and goverment idiots, or anti-gun policy corporations/storefronts as they did with Remington!

Jim Zumbo's sponsers had a lot to lose. But I do think the hunting and shooting public pack considerable whallop. Just doesn't have nearly as spectacular effect as it did with poor Zumbo.

 

[22-rimfire]

I think that MOST of us would agree that there is nothing whatsoever wrong in NOT liking EBRs!

However, making the ridiculous claim that EBRs have no place in hunting...THAT is wrong.

I can agree with that. I think EBR's (actually AR's) are a great platform for varmint hunting. People need to choose a caliber that does the job in a sportsmanlike manner rather than making something fit because they like 'em.

I want to pickup one of the new Remingtons or a Smith personally, just because. I doubt I'll hunt with them as I have other firearms to choose from. But they are fun to shoot, no question about that! For me that is what it is all about. It is not a statement of my 2A support.

 

[jerkface11]

Zumbo meant what he said. He only ever apologized for saying it he didn't recant it. So he basically offered a Bill Clinton apology he was only sorry he got caught. That isn't good enough.

 

[22-rimfire]

I think there is little doubt that Mr. Zumbo prefers traditional firearms for hunting. That does not make him anti-2A. His phrasing could have been better however in his blog back when it happened. For that, he paid a HUGE price.

 

[Z71]

I do think old Jim could have saved himself if he had been less hard-headed, and more apologetic!

Jerkface11 is right. He meant what he said. Thought his hunting public would rally to his support, and that his prominance would sheild him I guess?

The hunting public just went to their gun safe and made sure their battle rifle was safe and rust free. Then emailed Outdoor Life, and Remington, Gerber, etc!

He adopted a sort of minimal apology/wait for the storm to blow over attitude. I think he never had a clue what was going to hit him!

By the time it dawned on him that his self-importance wasn't going to save him, it was far too late!

"A stitch in time saves nine"! Zumbo didn't even have a needle!

 

[Hk91-762mm]

SPRINGFIELD, Mass. (AP) - Smith & Wesson is cutting about 15 percent of its work force, blaming slumping sales and a boycott by buyers angry over its gun-safety deal with the government.

The company said Thursday about 125 workers, including some managers, would be laid off within the next week at the company's Springfield, Mass., plant.

``One of the frustrating things for us is that some of the damage has been done by the pro-gun side. Some of the employees leaving here are members of these pro-gun organizations,'' said Ken Jorgensen, a Smith & Wesson spokesman =[I GUESS YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE SCREWWED YOUR WORKERS -huh! ]
===Smith & Wesson's was the nation's biggest handgun maker for years, but Sturm, Ruger & Co. surpassed Smith & Wesson last summer in number of handguns sold.
On Oct. 6, the gunmaker announced it was replacing==>>>> Ed Shultz,<<<== its president since 1992. It named George Colclough, an executive with the company for 25 years, as his replacement.

The next week, Smith & Wesson's British owner, Tomkins PLC, announced that its longtime chief executive, Greg Hutchings, was leaving. David Newlands, who was acting as the non-executive chairman since June, was named to take his place.
ED SHULTZ Went to work for one of the major Lawn machine co.s I think MTD---I tried to find out who as Id LOVE to continue the Damage to him by writing his employer and telling them I dont sell or buy there equip because of ol EDDYS tricks of past !

 

[22-rimfire]

As I recall, Mr. Zumbo wrote a letter afterwards to Congress in relation to a bill that was pending. I believe his name was used in support of an AWB type thing and he responded. He didn't have to.

How many here have the power to write a letter and have it entered in the Congressional record?

 

[jerkface11]

And if he hadn't made his boneheaded comments the gun banners would have had less ammo to use and he wouldn't have had to write them a letter.

 

[22-rimfire]

His comments were certainly boneheaded.

HK: Thanks for digging up that article. I know that the "boycott" had an effect back when the Clinton Admin did their thing and forced Smith & Wesson to comply with their desires. There were lots of product liability law suits going on at that time.

My earlier comment was about sales NOW or actually for last year. Sales were listed on another thread. Smith never took off the locks or changed anything significant after the company was sold. But they do have what I believe to be is an excellent AR rifle now. It seems that once changes are made at the manufacturing level, that there is no going back (again because of liability issues). The lawyers have their way.

It is one of the reasons we need to be vocal about our support of the 2nd Amendment and do our best to not have any more "reasonable gun laws" passed by Congress or at a state level. The states seem to be headed in the other direction now with the NICs check being in place and working. I'm also very skeptical about the newer clauses on mental health or the ramifications to gun owners of making more offenses a felony or crime punishable by a year or more in prison.

 

[torpid]

As I recall, Mr. Zumbo wrote a letter afterwards to Congress in relation to a bill that was pending. I believe his name was used in support of an AWB type thing and he responded. He didn't have to.
How many here have the power to write a letter and have it entered in the Congressional record?

To be fair it was his own damning words that were quoted by the anti-gun forces attempting to push their legislation (as was predicted by the shooting community), and if he was to salvage the remainder of his career, he had no choice but to publicly recant them, or face being a permanent pariah.

 

[Jeff White]

I am convinced that exposure to the other side of the shooting community educated him. I watched the grin on his face get bigger when he dumped the full magazine from the MK18. I personally spoke to him and shot with him.

I am not a hunter. Jim Zumbo is not a combat/self defense/black rifle shooter. But for three days a year ago, we shared a range and we both learned something. Mr. Zumbo learned that black rifles were not just used by the military, the police and neo-revolutionaries. And I learned that if you take someone who isn't interested in fast, accurate, combat type shooting and expose him to it, he'll most likely enjoy himself.

I know that for some of the purists here, nothing will suffice. But there was a bridge built between two branches of the shooting community. It's not a strong bridge yet, but hopefully it will be.

Jim Zumbo didn't have to reach out to us and take Denny Hansen up on his offer. He would have been back at work once the furor over his comments died down. But he did. At 61 years old he jocked up and came to the Boone County Sheriffs department range and did the kind of shooting that he never in his wildest dreams ever thought he would do. And there was no way to fake the ear to ear smile once he started shooting full auto weapons.

The entire shooting community owes Denny Hansen, Pat Rogers and Rich Lucibella their thanks. Footage from the class did make his TV show along with the hunting footage. A whole new audience was exposed to black rifles and they learned that everyday people enjoyed them.

A disaster was turned around and something positive came from it.

Jeff

 

[aquapong]

Remington = big sponsor of the magazine. Remington at the time soon releasing an AR. Remington probably squeezed the magazine to boot Zumbo.

 

[Hk91-762mm]

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/Model_R-15_VTR.asp

ya KNOW ----Im gona hafta get me one of these things And put the ol colt in storage for awile !!!

 

[anarchris]

the zumbo thing was a perfect storm

a bunch of things coincided, afaik it happened on a weekend that (it seems) everyone was at home.
Also, now the forums I'm on discourage that stuff with rules against using our clout to argue with (for instance DU) other forums.
I notice the activism forum doesn't get looked at as much as general, so I guess a lot of stuff gets ignored that would have received wider scrutiny.

& everybody seemed to just have had enough that weekend, I didn't hear about it till it was over and was miffed about missing it.

So I just called Mayor bloomburg and stated I had a ton of unregistered guns

 

[another okie]

Both Smith and Wesson and Ruger have different ownership than when they caused the boycotts. As far as I'm concerned, the boycotts are over. Zumbo has gone as far as you can expect anyone to go in this matter. He showed he was open to a new idea, and spoke up when his words were used against ARs.

 

[Green Lantern]

The entire shooting community owes Denny Hansen, Pat Rogers and Rich Lucibella their thanks. Footage from the class did make his TV show along with the hunting footage. A whole new audience was exposed to black rifles and they learned that everyday people enjoyed them.

A disaster was turned around and something positive came from it.

See??? That's what I call a HAPPY ENDING.

Which won't be enough for everyone, I suppose. Those that don't seem to be interested in giving Zumbo a chance to redeem himself, and at the other extreme those that thought we were wrong in the first place...

C'est la vie...

Also, now the forums I'm on discourage that stuff with rules against using our clout to argue with (for instance DU) other forums.

Uh, I thought "flame wars" with other boards were always a no-no...

When hitting a poll or something, it's strongly encouraged to open a new browser window instead of going right from THR to the poll...so they won't know they're being hammered by a pro-gun group...

 

[Soybomb]

He says it was a combination of fatigue, three glasses of red wine and his publisher's guidance to post controversial things in the blog.

Ouch. Say what we want, I imagine most of us have posted something we regret here that seemed like a good idea at the time. Luckily for most of us, no one cares.

Why did we almost unanimously condemn Zumbo for his ujustified statement, and yet at the same time almost unanimously* "overlook" Bill Ruger's?

I was not a part of the firearms community at the time so I may be wrong but I get the feeling that the internet has changed things. If bill ruger were making those statements today instead of 1994, I think things might have been different.

I never could figure out the people who claim Zumbo is one of us. Zumbo is a hunter not a shooter. He isn't one of us he's just another FUD. His CYA halfhearted apology wasn't enough to make up for his statements either.

I can understand the anger at people like Zumbo for throwing us under the bus, but what does this get us? Like it or not Zumbo is one of us. The anti's want all the guns even if the ebr's are first on the chopping block. We need to realize that the hunters are the same boat that we are and we need to make the hunters realize it too. We get nothing from dividing on it. Every time someone takes a zumbo out like Jeff White talks about and makes a positive impression, thats one more for our side. If we're lucky they're someone that has an audience and we get many more votes.

 

[clarence222]

Bill Ruger is dead, and yes Ruger is under new ownership. However there policy on 20 round mini 14 magazines still stands doesn't it

 

[22-rimfire]

I know this is off topic, but tell me about the "new ownership" at Ruger. I know Bill Ruger Jr. is no longer in charge, but some of the others are still there. So enlighten me. Management change or new ownership?

 

[tntwatt]

If anything, I think that next time we need to exercise more restraint as a whole.

Like it or not Zumbo is one of us.

I tend to disagree with both of these statements. We need to maintain a rapid and as severe as possible response to all attacks on gun rights. Especially for those so widely recognized as experts in their respective fields.

Zumbo proved he was not "one of us" when he intentionally made a statement intended to separate himself as a hunter and therefore using firearms for a more "respectable" reason. His statements made it plain that he considered himself separate and in a better class than the average non-hunting gun owner. He tried and failed to do what antis have been trying to do for decades: divide gun owners. What burned him was when all these hunters he expected to agree with him also reconized that if you take away black rifles, hunting rifles will be next.

And yes I've been reading his stuff and hunting for years. He knows his stuff. But he got what he deserved. Compromising basic principles is what loses your rights.

Sit back and do nothing when things like this happen and you will watch your rights disappear right along with your guns.

 

[feedthehogs]

We've all said dumb things, but those in a position of authority in the media are looked to by their readers, listeners as something beyond the u tube stupid people clips.

I think many more would excuse Jim for his blog statement if he had not made excuses, " He says it was a combination of fatigue, three glasses of red wine and his publisher's guidance to post controversial things in the blog" and said something to the effect of " I was wrong in my statements and hurt the gun community and the second amendment."

Certainly a man of his experience and age at the time should have known better and the coresponding consequences a statement like that could have resulted in. After all with age we garner wisdom, not foolishness.

Foolishness is for the young.

When you have losing presidential candidates and advisers claiming they lost because of the gun vote, you can't get much more active than that.

You want gun companies to give up internal locks, go after the politicians pressuring them or passing stupid legislation.