America admits suspects died in interrogations

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Drizzt

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America admits suspects died in interrogations

By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles
07 March 2003
The Independent (UK)

American military officials acknowledged yesterday that two prisoners captured in Afghanistan in December had been killed while under interrogation at Bagram air base north of Kabul – reviving concerns that the US is resorting to torture in its treatment of Taliban fighters and suspected al-Qa'ida operatives.

A spokesman for the air base confirmed that the official cause of death of the two men was "homicide", contradicting earlier accounts that one had died of a heart attack and the other from a pulmonary embolism.

The men's death certificates, made public earlier this week, showed that one captive, known only as Dilawar, 22, from the Khost region, died from "blunt force injuries to lower extremities complicating coronary artery disease" while another captive, Mullah Habibullah, 30, suffered from blood clot in the lung that was exacerbated by a "blunt force injury".

US officials previously admitted using "stress and duress" on prisoners including sleep deprivation, denial of medication for battle injuries, forcing them to stand or kneel for hours on end with hoods on, subjecting them to loud noises and sudden flashes of light and engaging in culturally humiliating practices such as having them kicked by female officers.

While the US claims this still constitutes "humane" treatment, human rights groups including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have denounced it as torture as defined by international treaty. The US has also come under heavy criticism for its reported policy of handing suspects over to countries such as Jordan, Egypt or Morocco, where torture techniques are an established part of the security apparatus. Legally, Human Rights Watch says, there is no distinction between using torture directly and subcontracting it out.

Some American politicians have argued that torture could be justified in this case if it helped prevent terror attacks on US citizens. Jonathan Turley, a prominent law professor at George Washington University, countered that embracing torture would be "suicide for a nation once viewed as the very embodiment of human rights".

Torture is part of a long list of concerns about the Bush administration's respect for international law, after the extrajudicial killing of al-Qa'ida suspects by an unmanned drone in Yemen and the the indefinite detention of "enemy combatants" at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, a number of whom have committed or attempted to commit suicide.

President Bush appeared to encourage extra-judicial solutions in his State of the Union address in January when he talked of al-Qa'ida members being arrested or meeting "a different fate". "Let's put it this way," he said in a tone that appalled many, "they are no longer a problem to the United States and our friends and allies."
 
Interesting assertion. Unfortunately, the Brit press can't be trusted to report anything approaching the truth about us.

I"ll believe it when I see it confirmed in a reliable source...
 
... a nation once viewed as the very embodiment of human rights".

Mr. Britannic Newspaperman, let me share with you what OUR sage Mr. P. J. O'Rourke has to say about human rights:
There's only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences. P.J. O'Rourke

Kindly think on that before you start telling us what we Americans think.
 
Hello Zander

Have you actually found an American media outlet that's credible?
tell me where to locate unbiassed news Please!
bigG?
Is this O'Rourke fellow a signer of our Constitution, a Senator or what?
Pardon my mood this morningbut I've just read a group of the New Nazis on free republic agreeing to the arrest of people wearing T-shirts printed with peace slogans.
There are more amendments than the 2nd to be concerned about! Each of out rights that fall to the wayside endangers the rest.
 
But under the Geneva Convention, this would be a war crime. Right?
 
The US has also come under heavy criticism for its reported policy of handing suspects over to countries such as Jordan, Egypt or Morocco, where torture techniques are an established part of the security apparatus.

And so where are the complaints about those countries' human rights violations ???????
 
like my first grade teacher said on the first day "you treat me nice and i'll treat you nice, if you're mean to me then i'm mean to you". if they captured US soldiers i don't think they're gonna give em milk n cookies and sing johnny cash
 
War is hell, and people die in them.

That's OK, as long as you feel the same way about, for example, the Bataan Death March, KIA/POW/MIAs in Vietnam, the Marines in Beirut, etc. What say you?
 
Gee. I wonder whether this will make the bad guys more or less likely to torture our own soldiers should they be taken.

Hmmm...

db
 
Sad if true.

That kind of treatment [if true] only lowers the U.S. to the level of the people we are accusing of the same practices?

Where is the honor in beating a POW to death? No matter what information might be sought.

I was only following orders..............:barf:

12-34hom.
 
BG

Do two wrongs now make a right?
Have you actually read the new Patriot law that may well define YOU as a POW? !!
If in fact America is at war shouldn't we declare one legally and actually define WHO exactly we are at war with?
Attacking peoples and countries on the pretext that they Might attack America should include countries that actually have an air force, navy, ICBMs, and nukes don't ya think?
Can anyone actually believe that Iraq is a larger threat than China-Russia & Israel?
You do know that both China and Russia supplied troops and weapons to the North Vietnese?
Have you read the detailed accounts from the sailors on board the USS Liberty?
Lastly, look to a connection between the Carlise Group and names in the news (Cheney-Bush-Bin Laden)
HAVE Fun!
 
Boo hoo? If it saves the lives of Americans and our allies, saive la guerre.
 
Does the Bill of Rights "give" rights, or simply "recognize" inherent human rights?

pax

If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you: but if you really make them think, they'll hate you. -- Don Marquis
 
America admits suspects died...

Too bad they can't revive them and kill them again...and again.
 
Does the fact that American soldiers, presumably acting under orders, beat prisoners to death, really not bother you?

Are you for real?

db
 
Torture is a bad thing.

War is a bad thing.

Getting caught by an enemy is a very bad thing.

Sometimes people die in a war.

Especially people who make war.

Its a given.

Hard, cold and cruel, but I think you can say it is a reality that most would call a TRUTH. A real honest to Allah TRUTH.

If you make war, you'd better win.

Cause second place don't count.

Its a crying shame that these gentlemen expired while in American hands, during interrogation processing. Hopefully (thinking like them for half a par-sec), they died with Allah or Mother on their lips and didn't give up any info that could be useful to their enemies... but in the long run, do you really care?

When I start to think that "I really care", I remember that actual Americans on airplanes actually had time to call their loved ones on their cell phones before they became human bombs, killing more Americans/Allies/Innocent human beings.

This is a very real WAR.

Its about to get MORE REAL.

I don't like it. I hate the concept of two people(s) squaring off against each other because talking does no good anymore.

But I don't want to be in second place. I remember 65 - 75. Great troops lead by politicians who had no real concept of total war; they wanted a clean war. Can't fire on SAM sites till they light you up? What?

Be nice to the prisoners, don't torture them. They'll say whatever you want to hear under torture usually.

I've never seen my buddy killed by an enemy or held him in my arms as he lay dying. I think that could cause a lot of very negative thoughts towards the enemy.

I'm sorry they died.

Kinda.

What did Mrs. Beamer hear her husband say to others on the phone that morning? I'll never forget it. What torture?

Adios
 
High Road, people.

Advocation of torture for "recreational purposes" and particularly discussions of various means of torture is not the High Road.

We are NOT here to show off how devious and barbaric we can be. A goodly part of the mission of THR is to provide a positive example of and for the firearms community at large.

Discussion of EFFECTIVENESS and MORALITY of torture -- on topic.
Discussion of HOW TO torture will get this thread closed. Quickly.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

pax

The welfare of the people has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience. -- Albert Camus
 
I'd suggest that the report in question is probably bogus, or obviously misrepresenting the facts. Alot of Brit tabloid sludge about American "torture" of prisoners has been proven to be bogus. Withold judgement until a DECENT source has something to say.
 
Sean, did you read the post? I'll bold the important parts:

American military officials acknowledged yesterday that two prisoners captured in Afghanistan in December had been killed while under interrogation at Bagram air base north of Kabul – reviving concerns that the US is resorting to torture in its treatment of Taliban fighters and suspected al-Qa'ida operatives.

I actually hope you're right (this time).

Going on, killing your enemy in war is one thing. Killing prisoners is different. Gee. Maybe that'll be W's legacy: he's going to need one.

db
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again, like it or not, the enemy is tortured in every war and every 'police action'. If the other side does it, and they do, it's the only way we can win.

To paraphrase a great man, passive people live in harmony and sleep well in this country because less passive folks are out doing their bidding.
 
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How about a moment of "Whoa up!", people?

The article did not say that torture in the form of physical violence was the cause of the deaths. It said "stress and duress" was used in harsh interrogation--which might not be sweetsy-pie but isn't the usual notion of "torture"--and described some forms of this stress and duress.

Scenario: Sleep deprivation, hog fat, whatever. Not nice. Prisoner goes a bit bonkers and attacks the "torturers". He gets a dose of nightstick. It can be just as valid an assumption that death was not the intent of the nightsticking as the assumption that he was "tortured to death".

A captive has the potential for violence, yes; but he's essentially helpless, really. Laughing over his death strikes me as pretty low-rent. Hen-house ways...

Acceptance of allegations of needless cruelty without a full knowledge of the facts, is not particularly wise, also...

I wasn't there. I don't know the truth of the matter.

Art
 
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