America admits suspects died in interrogations

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Fox News was just talking about this. Apparently both men had "Heart/Medical Conditions", but according to the autopsy, "blunt force trauma" was cause.

Didn't say who or when "blunt trauma" was applied.

Adios
 
American military officials acknowledged yesterday that two prisoners captured in Afghanistan in December had been killed while under interrogation at Bagram air base north of Kabul – reviving concerns that the US is resorting to torture in its treatment of Taliban fighters and suspected al-Qa'ida operatives.
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And the problem is...??? :scrutiny:
 
While I certainly do not condone physical torture of bonafide POWs, I feel no compassion for those terrorists whose idea of a military operation is to hijack a commercial airliner and crash it into a building full of innocent civilians whose only crime was being there at the time.

When these type tactics are seen by the perpetrators as wholly acceptable in the eyes of Allah, and the rewards for carrying out such operations include 47 Virgins and martyrdom, I have great difficulty assigning the status of POW to them when captured.

In fairness, there are probably countless non physical means of interrogation that would yield compliance and cooperation from these captives, and I have no doubt these methods are being used. If in the course of non physical interrogations the terrorist expires, all I can say is OH WELL.
 
Gee. I wonder whether this will make the bad guys more or less likely to torture our own soldiers should they be taken.
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Is that some sort of joke? Guys that slit womens throats in order to fly planes into buildings are going to care about how we treat them? The mind boggles!:rolleyes:
Didn't say who or when "blunt trauma" was applied.
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Gee Baba Louie, you seem to not be jumping to conclusions. You would never get far as a news urinalist with that sort of attitude.;) :p
 
Bear in mind that at the time of the Bagram fighting, and for some time afterward, there were very few US forces on the ground there. Most of them were Special Forces personnel providing target indication to the USAF and USN, and training indigenous fighters opposing the Taliban. If prisoners were being interrogated, it's an odds-on probability that those doing the interrogating were Afghans, not US personnel, simply due to the very limited numbers of the latter available - and the language problem. As is widely known, Afghans have never been particularly merciful to one another, particularly when interrogating prisoners of "war" from opposing factions... I'd say it's surprising that more prisoners did not meet this fate!

None of the above should be interpreted as in any way condoning torture. It's always, everywhere, the wrong thing to do. However, many in less civilized societies don't share this world view, and would regard us as pantywaisted sissies (or worse) for our reluctance to indulge in this widespread pastime...
 
Stuff happens, life is a *****. Where was the mercy on 9/11? F every last one of them. If they die horrendous deaths, you won't see me disheartened.
 
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I agree that the people responsible should be charged, if this is true. BUT.. before anyone starts with the holier than thou BS.... don't forget that - WE ARE PROBABLY THE ONLY COUNTRY ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH THAT WOULD DO SO.
 
Not having been a POW, and having direct experience, I can't say what would be considered torture. I do know what we were told to expect in the Nam conflict, and most was considered torture at that time.

As to POW there are limits agreed upon by many nations as to what constitutes torture.

These were POW's from Afgan; however we need to know if the injuries were from intrigation or from other causes. Might not religious zelots (of any stripe) injure themselves or others to promote their aganda( ie: become martyrs?)?

If we have been doing this kind of interig.ati

on then we are definately violating the concepts that we profess to defend, and the terrorist are winning and destroying our way of life!

As to the heart failure aspect, wasn't it used in an old Hienlein story, any death can be attributed to heart failure

Atticus
I agree with that view.
 
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Well, as long as it's them, and not us, right?

After all, they're "enemy combatants", and we're US "citizens".

And a bolt gun is a terrorist weapon.

Words to die by: "It can't happen here!"
 
We need better info

I have no doubt that the slightest trangression on America's part will be amplified and trumpeted by the press, especially much of the British press. But we don't know enough.

Art,as usual, saw the truth. We don't know how the 'blunt trauma' occurred; could have been simple self-defense on the part of the captors, who elected to club the guy instead of shooting him. If it was torture, it was criminal. But we don't know.

Prisoners are often hurt before capture. Injured extremities tend to grow clots. Clots break free and go to lungs, as in one of the above cases, causing death. Who knows? Men have died of heart attacks under nonviolent interrogation before.

We just have to wait and see. But I can't stomach the glee with which some of America's enemies received this news.
 
For the sake of this post, allow me to stipulate that this prisoner was beaten to death by Americans, which is something I am not convinced actually occurred.

Lest you misunderstand what I am about to say, I will state my view clearly. I do not condone or support torture, no matter who it is done to and no matter “how many lives it might saveâ€. That said, I can’t help but think that those who are so very upset about this have never been in a military type of environment or really possessing of much understanding of what happens in war. I could be mistaken but I can’t help but think something along the lines of, “that’s what happens when you pick a fight†(keep in mind my previous statement about torture). An overzealous lieutenant, a pissed off sergeant, a scared private are all fertile ground for breeding such action. Moreover, anybody that’s spent much time around prison guards also knows that it is easy for them to develop a “God complex†(don’t know the technical term). In fact America spends much money on psychologists and makes a huge effort to ensure that the guards at our Stateside prisons don’t go overboard in their actions. I’ll believe that America and this administration condones torture and the beating of prisoners right after I watch Bossy jump the moon and see pigs fall from the sky.


(To borrow the idea from Pax),
It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow fond of it. Robert E. Lee.
 
If any one has delusions about whether or not these same people would torture and kill our soldiers I hate to be blunt but you are kidding yourselves. Or perhaps you have not fully contemplated who we are dealing with. Remember Danny Pearl?
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So we defeat terrorists by becoming terrorists?

Interesting...

Torture in the name of "Freedom."

Banning guns in the name of "Safety."

Difference? :scrutiny:

If we sink to the level of terrorists by torturing them, please tell me why we deserve to defend ourselves from them?

Killing them in war is one thing. Heck, even assasinations.

But torture?

No thanks.
 
The enemy doesnt play by the rules why should we.
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The Saudis stone to death women who expose more than their eyes.

Why shouldn't we?


Saddam shoots people who disagree with him.

Why shouldn't we?


Hitler tried to exterminate jews.

Why shouldn't we?


The terrorists hate freedom, and do not care for basic human rights.

Why should we care?
 
Well as punishment I am against torture of any kind.

If we need info to prevent attacks and save American lives. I am for the proper use of alternate interrogation methods.
FWIW, psych methods can do more than pain methods anyway.
 
I guess you shouldn't become a member of a violent and malevolent group that claims responsibility for the destruction of American property and killing of innocent American citizens on U.S. soil, huh?

Military targets are one thing but, when you start killing innocents, the rules change. Combatants are expected to go into harm's way and they expect danger and the possibility of death. When you kill innocents, you get what you deserve.

I hope that it IS true.:fire:
 
if they captured US soldiers i don't think they're gonna give em milk n cookies and sing johnny cash
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It's already proven they don't. Remember that big furball near Tora Bora a year ago? We have UAV footage of them capturing a SEAL, restraining him, walking him a distance, then shooting him once, in the head, execution style.

<hypothetical>
Why we should keep any of those terrorists alive after they've outlived their usefulness, if you accept that turnabout is fair play?
 
Okay first off terrorists are not POWs they are captured enemy combatants. The fedgov was very careful to define this early on, and this appears to be a new legal category to distinguish them from enemy soldiers, in uniform, captured in combat. I do NOT know what the legal implications of this difference may be.

While as a retired intel professional (hey I drove a desk - I never did 'special' anything and make no claim otherwise.) I can state categorically that use of physical torture generally does NOT produce reliable data (there's a lot of evidence over a long period of time that the guy being tortured is almost always going to end up saying whatever he thinks the torturers want to hear - doh!) In this case there is no indication that the blunt force trauma did not occur prior to American custody of the subjects.

One of the reasons that we've kept the Brits and Canada as our closest allies is that they're among the very few countries who always do their best to play by the rules. Remember that other players in the region on whom America depends (like Pakistan, f'rinstance) could care less about the Geneva and Hague conventions and would not enforce them under any circumstances. In fact I would submit that one of the reasons Turkey is turning into such a problem in the current situation is that we've forced them to play by the rules in the past and this time they don't want to do so. But I'm wandering.

Seems to me there are a number of folks in the Arab world that wish bin ladin and his merry band of wackos would never have called down the wrath of the US during a Republican administration and are primarily concerned with finding OBL and whoever is supporting them, irradicating all of them (mostly including SH and his followers) and then getting the US back out of the region as quickly as possible...even if that means a couple of years. That being the case, don't be too surprised if we see more prisoners dying in US custody after having been turned over to our folks by our 'allies' from the arab world.
 
If we need info to prevent attacks and save American lives. I am for the proper use of alternate interrogation methods.
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That is scary if you truly believe that.
As a matter of fact if you think that maybe it is better if the terrorist win this war because they are correct in their assertion that America is hypocritical. We say we believe in one thing and do another.

Okay first off terrorists are not POWs they are captured enemy combatants.
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Right and my AR-15 is an assualt weapon. I understand you are not necissarily supporting that position, but I am afraid some people may really by that BS.

It boils down to this, if we survive by limiting free speech, closing off government to public scrunity, invading our homes and privacy and torturing ANYONE, then Sept.11 really does mark the end of America. The terrorist won. The sad thing is we have helped them.
We allowed them to pass the patriot act. We are allowing our president to attack a soverign nation with NO links to the terrorists. We are letting our nation hold "secret trials" all in the name of "national security" I for one don't want to be that secure. If this is the world that is to follow I hope I don't live to see it.
 
Faustulus,

Well spoken.

pax

The man who asks of freedom anything other than itself is born to be a slave. -- Alexis de Tocqueville
 
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