America admits suspects died in interrogations

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Probably came about when the first settlers were wiped out without a trace 'cause the indigenous people didn't want them here?
Other natives helped settlers survive the first winter here. The Plymouth colony would never have been established without the natives.
As a matter of fact you will find more instances of natives helping than harming. There was a time where freedom was the most important ideal, or at least we said that was the case.

jmbg29,

Your position has been that we must follow the rules
Close, My position is that we must to what is morally right, not legally. If we pass a law saying torture is okay for arab men, then we would be following the rules. But it doesn't make it right. When you capture a man in combat, he should be treated humanely. I don't care what he is wearing. Murdering people because of the clothes they are wearing is immoral regardless of what the rules say. Think of them as a minimum set of standards, we should aspire to more.
The problem is there is no internationally agreed upon definition for "enemy combatant" therefore we are lawyering our way out of a situation. We are making a semantic arguement. Lets be clear it is a duck. it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, it has feathers and webbed feet like a duck. ...

If you do condone torture, you cannot say that you are any better than those who planned and executed 9/11.

Finally a point Drjones and I can agree! :)
 
First, a couple of stipulations.

1. The concept "Innocent until proven guilty" applies in this case, as in others. News reports are just 'reports', after all.

2. The use of "torture" (which is a variable concept, depending on which side of the lamp you are on) is generally not an effective technique for garnering useful information, as the subject will generally tell you whatever you want to hear to stop the pain.

With those two stipulations in mind, I assert that this is a circular argument, espousing a loop from the "no torture under any circumstances" to the "whatever it takes" extremes. I also assert that both (and everything in between) are correct, depending on the situation.

Before this sets off another verbal war, I'll explain. I can easily come up with numerous examples of situations where torture is neither legally nor morally justifiable. I can also conceive circumstances where almost anything would be ok, in my mind, at least morally, and probably legally, too. These examples (torture ok) are, thankfully, far less numerous and unlikely, but still possible, at least academically.

Although I generally dislike "what if's", here's one where I don't expect to get much disagreement, at least in theory. (A nice terrorist play). For the purpose of the argument, you find yourself in a room on the 50th floor of a building in a major US city with a 'low-yield' nuclear weapon on a timer that is running, with the person who placed it and set the timer in custody. The timer is ticking down from the ten-minute mark, and you have no assistance. The NEST team is twenty minutes out, and evacuation is not possible. You can see the multiple mercury motion switches in the timer mechanism preventing gross movement, so relocation of the weapon is not immediately possible. ARE you going to limit your possible interrogation techniques to offering the suspect tea and cookies? I know I wouldn't.

Let's take another, more likely shot.You find a kidnapping suspect who says he has buried the kidnappee, and there is a possibility that if you act fast, the air won't run out and the victim can be rescued. The suspect is taunting you with this 'fact', but refuses to talk, in spite of your offering free coffee, doughnuts, and cigarettes (or whatever). Are you going to 'cross lines', or just keep on being 'moral'?

Admittedly, these are extreme and unlikely situations. I use them to illustrate, however, that there are potential situations where I not only would disregard methods and focus only on the results, but would actively advocate a 'whatever it takes' approach, using the 'greater good' philosophy. They also illustrate that, at least on the 'bad' end, extreme circumstances make some otherwise intolerable acts tolerable, assuming the immediacy argument.

Just my opinion.
 
Let's take another, more likely shot.You find a kidnapping suspect who says he has buried the kidnappee, and there is a possibility that if you act fast, the air won't run out and the victim can be rescued. The suspect is taunting you with this 'fact', but refuses to talk, in spite of your offering free coffee, doughnuts, and cigarettes (or whatever). Are you going to 'cross lines', or just keep on being 'moral'?

This is where you ask..."What Would Dirty Harry Do?"...:evil:
 
Murdering people because of the clothes they are wearing is immoral regardless of what the rules say.
Once again let me remind you that I said nothing about murder, other than to say that the facts about these two in particular have yet to come to light.
The problem is there is no internationally agreed upon definition for "enemy combatant" therefore we are lawyering our way out of a situation.
"B.S." as you are fond of saying. The definition is age old. Even before the first Geneva Convention was signed in 1864 enemy combatants were defined. Ever hear of a rather obscure portion of the U.S. Constitution that refers to "Letters of Marque and Reprisal?!? Know what it's there for?!? It's there because people "privateering" (fighting as a volunteer military force for a government) needed those documents in order to avoid the hangman's noose AS PIRATES.
We are making a semantic arguement(sic).
No we aren't. We're playing the old "if it's not done in a purely idealist fashion, I am going to criticize it as wrong" game. I hate to break your heart, but the rest of us (the ones that do the actual fighting/killing/etc. figured all of this stuff out long ago. Some rats don't like the rules and they come to the battlefield in clothes that blend in with those who are innocent, and you still expect that those who must hunt them and kill them - without killing a single innocent - are going to treat said rats with the same honor and respect as a man that had the dignity and courage to come to the field with honor. Ain't gonna happen. The Sun will burn out of the sky before it ever does.

If I'm wrong, and the folks that actually do the fighting say "Gee, we really should do this stuff according to the 'Faustulus Moral Code' method." I'll be sure to let you know.

In the meanwhile, you are out of your depth.

:rolleyes: :uhoh: :barf:
 
jmbg29,

First off I am not saying that these men were tortured or were not, only that to do so would be immoral and base.
You seem to think ideals and morality have no place in the world or that they should be set aside to accomplish a task. I cannot agree with this.
Remember Nietzsche’s warning.
In your world we are justified in becoming monsters to maintain our lives. And I understand your position. However, I may be an idealist but I at least I am willing to die with a clear conscious.
You keep harping on about the real world and implying that we must do terrible things in the name of whatever the government decides is the war of the week. Winning is not the most important thing. If we win, but become the hypocritical nation our enemies accuse us of being, where is the victory?
It is like the choice that trapshooter poised. Do we do whatever it takes to save lives or do we hold to our ideals no matter what the consequences?
Since you are so familiar with the history of enemy combatants you understand that the term has never been applied to a soldier. It has exclusively been used for spies, something no one has suggested any of the Taliban were.
Think in terms of the French resistance during WWII. These men were soldiers and fought the enemy the way they could. The Germans of course called them spies and saboteurs. We called them heroes.
Lastly we are having a friendly discussion here and I don’t appreciate snide comments, you may take issue with my position but you don’t know me from Adam and there is no reason to take swipes at me, nor anyone else posting here. There is no reason not to be civil.
 
Whosoever would fight monsters must take care that in the process he does not become one. For when you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks also into you.
--Friedrich Nietzche

LawDog
 
Only thing I'd add here is to consider the source of the "information," which has proven to be consistently bogus in the past.
 
Under interrogation by whom? THe reporter doesn't say, which makes me wonder. Certainly if US employees did this, heads need to roll. There's no excuse for killing in these circumstances. Even if they are using torture, and even if it was somehow justified, actually killing the subject is a failure of that method and must be punished. Somehow I doubt our guys would have been beating anyone like that. Electroshock combined with powerful drugs is far more likely. If this happened, my guess is it was done by locals having some fun with their enemies.
 
My opinion is that if we are against another army, where we are fighting lawful combatants we should not use torture.

If we are going after unlawful combatants that target civilians then we have a lot more leeway to extract information.
 
I fear for this country due to people who are not willing to do what is necessary in order to win and to prevent the deaths of innocents. Yet they live under the protection of those who are willing to do what it takes.

Hide behind your piety all you want, but if you are willing to sacrifice your fellow countrymen, friends, family and children to protect the rights of terrorists, then you are lost in a world of fantasy and your opinion is being logged accordingly. :D

None of what I am saying applies to domestic issues or US citizens, I am referring to terrorists from foreign countries.
So inferring that my mentality is applicable by me to the 2A is not correct.
Even terrorists from the US are protected by the BoR, IMHO.

No where have I condoned physical torture or the killing of prisoners, but I am not shedding a tear if it happens, they are the enemy.
Indeed physical torture is a poor method of obtaining reliable information and even psyops and chemical methods have their reliability issues.

Like I said earlier, for some life is theory for others it is reality, where you fall is up to you.
 
Let's take another, more likely shot.You find a kidnapping suspect who says he has buried the kidnappee, and there is a possibility that if you act fast, the air won't run out and the victim can be rescued. The suspect is taunting you with this 'fact', but refuses to talk, in spite of your offering free coffee, doughnuts, and cigarettes (or whatever). Are you going to 'cross lines', or just keep on being 'moral'?

Hmmmm, I think Harry said, "I'm all broken up about that mans rights".

That is the problem with speaking in absolutes, there are no absolutes in life.
 
DeltaElite,

Killing the enemy is fine.

Torture is not.

Killing off of the field of battle should be hedged about with rigid and inflexible rules -- lest our soldiers lose their sense of humanity and become unfit to return to civilization when their tour of duty is over.

As for 'hiding behind piety,' that's a facile accusation amounting to an ad hominem. Ad homs, of course, do not build a valid construction. But you knew that.

A question for you: Do you believe the BoR grants rights which humans did not have prior to its writing? Or does it recognize rights which existed before it was penned? Whatever your answer, think through its implications as it applies to this thread and to the morality of torture.

pax

The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. -- Joseph Joubert
 
Pax,
I believe the BoR recognizes the rights of all humans.

I don't believe the BoR extends to terrorists and their ilk.
I guess I am no better than the terrorist according to some, but I can live with that.
I will not sacrifice US citizens just to preserve the rights of foriegn terrorists.
I value the lives of US citizens far more than I do that of terrorists and I would rather see a million terrorists killed than one US citizen.
I will not apologize for being willing to do what it takes to defend my fellow citizens, anymore than I would have apologized for assassinating Adlof Hitler in 1939 Germany, if I were around to have done so.

I know people will disagree and think me a monsters, but oh well. ;)

Oh and before the allegation that I am unfit to be a cop and mistreat my prisoners flies off of someones keyboard, I am not.
I follow the rules of the game and the "legal system" is a game that is perpetrated upon us all.
I have personal views, but I do not allow them to cloud my professional judgement or convince me to act outside of the rule of law that our "legal system" says we live under.

------------------------------------------------------------
FWIW, I would have sacrificed my life in a heartbeat to prevent 9/11 or a future attack of such magnitude.
Of course with my mindset, I believe that I would have lived and sacrificed the terrorists lives instead, but that is part of my mentality.
I always know I will win, no matter what it takes and if I lose, then I am probably dead as a result.
I decided long ago, that I was willing to risk my life and possibly die to protect my fellow citizens, I have done this as a firefighter/paramedic and as a cop for 20 years now and I will do it for at least another 10 more before I can retire and play with my family full time.

Ain't this a fun discussion. :D
 
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Killing the enemy is fine.

Torture is not.

Hmmmmm.

Killing the enemy how? Bombs strapped to kids to blow up non-combatants? Airplanes or truck (bombs) driven by religious zealots into buildings containing non-combatants? I don't think thats fine but thats one groups take on a method of "Killing the Enemy"

This is not a clean war. Show me one that really is (all the time).
But all of the above are examples of "Killing the enemy (which is fine)"
-yet-
slow painful extraction of information to stop the, as we have been told, "Killing of the enemy (which is fine)"... is not.

Interesting.

Do the means justify the ends?

Are you really worried about our boys coming home and using these same methods on their neighbors and friends? Probably not. Those men are the tip of the spear of our war machine. They will see and do things unimaginable to Mammy and Pappy Yokum back in Tusslebug USA. They'll have the nightmares so I can sleep at night. Pretty damn sad for them and their families, huh?

Some WILL go over the line. When caught, they will be crucified, even tho' we sent them there to stop someone else from "Killing the enemy (which is us, and to them, that's fine)"

Do the means justify the ends?

An age old question.

If you are the victor... maybe.

If the information recovered saves just one soldiers life... is it worth it?

Yep.

Are you the judge? Am I? Am I even capable of passing judgement, real honest to God, this is it and we mean it judgement?

Please name one war, in which our troops fought, where American prisoners of war were treated in a manner you or I would say is humane. Compare that to the manner we treated our POW's, on the whole.

Yes, we expect only Eagle Scouts in our uniforms, no we don't want to sink as low as, say, the Japanese '37-'45, NK '50-'53, VC/NVA '65-'75...maybe its a Christian European WASP thing.

Whoever did, whatever they did, that resulted in two enemy/terrorist deaths will most certainly be brought in front of some captains mast or Courts Martial, once the evidence is weighed.

No need to lose any sleep over the dead now. Their problems are over.

Do the means...?

Adios
 
Yet they live under the protection of those who are willing to do what it takes.

If my death will stop them I will happily lay down my life.

Hide behind your piety all you want, but if you are willing to sacrifice your fellow countrymen, friends, family and children to protect the rights of terrorists, then you are lost in a world of fantasy and your opinion is being logged accordingly.

Piety is the word I would choose, I am a Christian and I try to live by the teachings of Christ. I am concerned about the hearafter more than the here.
That is the problem with speaking in absolutes, there are no absolutes in life.
:)

None of what I am saying applies to domestic issues or US citizens, I am referring to terrorists from foreign countries.

Then you are outraged at the treatment of Jose Padilla.

Ain't this a fun discussion.
Agreed
 
Lastly we are having a friendly discussion here and I don’t appreciate snide comments, you may take issue with my position but you don’t know me from Adam and there is no reason to take swipes at me, nor anyone else posting here. There is no reason not to be civil.
You made assertions that were patently false. I cited several documents i.e. The Geneva Convention(s) and our own Constitution. I'm still waiting for you to cite something substantive.
Since you are so familiar with the history of enemy combatants you understand that the term has never been applied to a soldier. It has exclusively been used for spies, something no one has suggested any of the Taliban were.
Wrong again! Combatants that find themselves in enemy held or taken territory, need to be in uniform. It doesn't matter one wit whether they knew that or not. Perhaps their fearless leaders should have warned them of that little detail before throwing them into a fight with the big dogs.

When I said that you were out of your depth, I meant every word of it, and I stand by it.

There are rules and traditions in warfare. Perhaps you don't like them. That would be your problem, not mine.

When you spoke of the glorious "French Resistance" I thought I felt a tear form at the corner of my eye. I realized that it was there because I was laughing so hard. Thank you for the perfect historical example of what I'm talking about.

Had the French any honor at all, they would have fought as men in uniform. Instead the rolled over like a Suzuki Samurai. Then they had a paltry few smugglers and assorted criminals pull a few fast ones on, or for the Krauts, or the English, or the Americans, or whomever could buy their loyalty for that moment.

Long story short, any of them captured in Nazi occupied Vichy France were summarily dealt with. And since they were not in uniform, there wasn't thing one that anyone could do about it.
In your world we are justified in becoming monsters to maintain our lives.
I submit that it is you that believe that we are justified in becoming monsters by suggesting that we allow the cowards a way out.

The rules regarding uniform requirements are designed to save innocent life. They are meant to dissuade combatants from adopting the local manner of dress in order to "blend in" with non-combatants. And while it is true that the Taliban et al. don't understand why they shouldn't hide behind children when they open fire, that ignorance on their part does not constitute grounds for an excuse on our part.

Ever wonder why our airmen/soldiers/ marines/ sailors that are rescued are still in uniform? It is because they have courage. They are proud. They actually do things that may cause them harm in order to protect and preserve innocent life.

Your views are your own business, but if you wish to accuse Americans of things that they haven't done, or as yet been found guilty of, you better have something other than your feelings, or quotes from a vastly overated German philosopher to back them up.

Things like international treaties regarding conduct in warfare for instance.
 
Then you are outraged at the treatment of Jose Padilla.

I am not outraged, I reserve outrage for more significant events, such as 9/11. Not the arrest of a treasonous coward.
Jose Padilla is a US citizen, but when he became a supporter of foriegn terrorists, he gave up his citizenship in my mind. Along with the Buffalo terrorist cell they busted.
He should be officially stripped of his US citizenship and dealt with accordingly.
When you work with the enemy, you are no longer a countryman of mine and have forfeited the protections of US citizenship, IMHO.
 
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When you work with the enemy, you are no longer a countryman of mine and have forfeited the protections of US citizenship, IMHO.
I understand your point of view, but disagree with it for (mostly) the following reason:

Who gets to determine which people to treat as "terrorists" or "enemy combatants?" The answer will translate to "anyone accused of this class of crime forfeits their civil rights immediately." No right to a speedy trial, no right to council, no right to face their accusers, or know the charges against them, or ...

You get a situation where you can have people disappearing off the street, and the response from the authorities can be "we suspect him of being a terrorist. Why? Were you close friends with the accused? Lemme see your drivers' license, lady!"

When, exactly, does someone forfeit their "God-given" rights, which our law recognizes as you stated above? Is it as soon as a government agent levels an accusation, or after conviction of a crime? If an accusation is enough, can you visualize any ways that power could be abused that would simply destroy the Republic? If not now, than under a future Clinton/Schumer administration?

These are the questions we ought to be asking.
 
A very tough, complicated guestion...

It seems to boil down to what Baba Louie wrote.


Do the ends justify the means used to achieve them?

For us as Americans, we're dealing with a what amounts to a new situation. Terrorists are not on our previous experience list to any great degree.

We can define 9/11 as an act of war, but doing so does not negate 9/11's role as an act of terror. That is the crux of the issue, I think.

9/11 as an act of war is something we have done to try and get a handle on the situation, an attempt to control events on our terms. It allows us to focus the enormous might of the military with complete justification, and also makes room for military solutions. Solutions of this sort are of the "bigger hammer" variety, involving bombs, troops, collateral damage, infrastructure and basic resource destruction, lots of somewhat indiscriminate death from a distance, and things of that ilk. Military operations happen on a large scale, and involve re-shaping/destroying structures, be they physical or cultural, on a national level. This is where you get concepts like regime changing and fundamental government rebuilding as goals. Cultural changes installed at this point are designed to facilitate placement and maintenance of the new system on the conquered populace. This is to ensure that we don't have to do this twice, as war is an expensive undertaking. This somewhat idealized conclusion is what we are trying to achieve in Afganistan.

This is the high-moral-ground solution. In the process we try to minimize collateral damage, not slaughter non-combatants, only attack military targets and objectives, and only destroy infrastructural resources (Like water supplies.) if we absolutely must. This solution has no room in it for torture in any sense. It is based purely on bare neccessity, with a government's impersonal influence on decisions. This is how a "civilised", modern society is supposed to protect itself, in an ideal world. Unfortunately, there's the other part to consider.

9/11 was ultimately an act of terror. It didn't take out a military or infrastructural entity, nor was there any follow-up or long-term plan. It was perpetrated by religious fanatics to achieve a fanatical result, which could be defined as casting an emotional influence over our entire society's thinking proccess. It is an attempt to install a permanent component of fear, of emotionally-driven irrationality, in order to re-shape our version of civilization. the stronger the emotional influence, the more successful the fanatical attack. This definition attaches a different significance to torture as a means of furthering a solution in addition to entirely re-defining what the solution ultimately resolves into for us as a nation.

It was an act of terror. It conjures up rage, fear, desire for revenge, self-righteous satisfaction and emotionally-driven pontification and justification. These kinds of changes are not usually beneficial to a society. Pervasive irrationality is erosive to civilisation as an institution and disruptive to long-term planning and national success. If we as a society are willing to condone torture as an accepted methodology where before it was viewed as totally unacceptable, it serves as a symptom indicating that the terrorists have succeeded in reshaping our society. By giving in to our righteous indignation and anger, we are taking a step further away from our own professed goals of national evolution. America has always been the good guys. Our nation strives for equality and freedom, lofty ideas that require us to treat all people, even ones that behave barbarically, as people. If we compromise our ideals by instead treating all people (For where do you draw the line?) as barbarians, to the hubris that grievous injury can absolve responsibility for the application of standards that by our own admission we find intolerable, that then legitimizes the fanatic's influence, and gives the attack a level of credibility that we as a society should refuse to endorse. We should not allow our anger and grief to diminish our standards of humanity. America has always embodied a higher expectation of acceptable behavior towards others, both individually and institutionally. It's part and parcel to the basic pricipals this country was founded on. To compromise our standards, and condone a backwards step on the behavioral ladder of civility is to give Victory to the terrorists. Individual cases of irrational fanaticism should not be able to influence us as a whole. It's hard to regard torture as any kind of achievement.


On a personal level, don't get me wrong, here. I'm not saying that feelings of anger, outrage, pain and grief are wrong or unjustified. I can completely identify with a desire to feed any given captured terrorist into an arc furnace, slowly. I have the same or very similar responses to a lot of the things stated on this thread. But I also have a deep and pervading distrust of emotionally-driven thinking, and I try to think about things more than once, with a firm grip on my feelings so I can prevent or at least recognize and dismiss emotional influences that I consider detrimental. Self-righteous petty vindictiveness does not become us on The High Road, or as a nation. We should stand together, shoulder-to-shoulder, and show the world the standard by which we judge civilisation. I think it might be time for a little "cultural surgery", deftly applied in the form of high explosives. :evil:
 
So does this mean we will engage in another form of asymetric warfare? Does it mean Islamofascist terrorists are permitted to attack population centers, destroy buildings, collapse cities, blow up schools and generally wage war on non-combatants while our government (the entity constituted by our social contract) fights the eneny with lawyers?

They shoot, we file briefs.

They bomb, they object.

They kill, we imprison.

They destroy, we interrogate.

Perhaps the most effective weapon Islamofascist terrorists have is our our confusion of ethics with legality. Somehow I think we forget that ethics and legality are not synonomous.
 
jmbg29-

MEA CULPA!

Brainfade. Got a pic on my desktop of a plane disappearing into a Tower face.

Managed to compartmentalize my visual thinking around just the Towers while considering the WHOLE attack of all four planes the "singular isolated incident".

NOT a deliberate attempt to lessen or detract from any of the other attacks. Just didn't convey that in the writing. An accident. Please excuse my lack of clarity.

Deep thoughts about motivations/reactions/mentations, to the exclusion of the details of the actual events.

So, I apologize for any misunderstanding. Not trying to make anybody mad here!

Better?
 
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