Coltdriver
Member
See my prior post.
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America admits suspects died in interrogations
- Thread starter Drizzt
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Stop!
Remember for a moment what the name of this forum is.
I highly suggest that this discussion gets on the high road right freakin now.
Debating the propriety of torture as an interrogation technique is one thing. It certainly is a discussion worth having.
High-fiving each other about how two of "them" died, seemingly under interrogation, or blithely asking "whats the problem?" is not a discussion that THR will condone. As free men we are each entitiled to our own opinion. However, such opinions will not be given voice on THR, using THR's bandwidth, under THR's name. Yes, this is a limit upon free speech. You signed up for that when you clicked the "I agree" button.
Gentlemen, continue.
Mike
Remember for a moment what the name of this forum is.
I highly suggest that this discussion gets on the high road right freakin now.
Debating the propriety of torture as an interrogation technique is one thing. It certainly is a discussion worth having.
High-fiving each other about how two of "them" died, seemingly under interrogation, or blithely asking "whats the problem?" is not a discussion that THR will condone. As free men we are each entitiled to our own opinion. However, such opinions will not be given voice on THR, using THR's bandwidth, under THR's name. Yes, this is a limit upon free speech. You signed up for that when you clicked the "I agree" button.
Gentlemen, continue.
Mike
El Tejon
Member
The tremendous psychops victory that humane treatment of AQT and, soon, Iraqi prisoners would destroy the image that the subjects of Arab tyrants receive. Interrogate them, extract what we can. If they are pawns, let them go back to their villages with food and money.
Torture, or letting our "allies" torture these people, hurts us in the long run and destroys our ability to establish and operate human intelligence assets as we must to win the War on Terror. The emotionalism of "they have it coming" is self-defeating and irrational, just as all emotionalism is, see e.g. "for the children."
Torture, or letting our "allies" torture these people, hurts us in the long run and destroys our ability to establish and operate human intelligence assets as we must to win the War on Terror. The emotionalism of "they have it coming" is self-defeating and irrational, just as all emotionalism is, see e.g. "for the children."
seeker_two
Member
Two statements....posted so close together....Coincidence?
jmbg29
member
Actually, the internationally agreed to rules of war are quite plain on this subject. They have been since 1864. You may look them up if you wish. Look under "Geneva Conventions".
For instance, an American <or fill in your favorite country of origin here> captured out of uniform in enemy territory may be summarily executed as a spy.
People abusing the emblems of the Red Cross, Red Crescent, etc. may suffer the same fate.
The parts of the Geneva Conventions that are applicable to soldiers being in uniform are there to protect civillian populations by making it difficult for combatants to blend seemlessly with the indigenous personnel.
Which is very bad news for death-cult nuts, the really aren't able to fight without a skirt, er... burka to hide behind, or a crib to crawl under.
Too bad. So sad.
Nice try though.
Coltdriver, see above.
You guys watch too many Oliver Stone movies.
Leaving some ticked off soldier who might have had buddies killed or wounded with a couple of captured terrorists might not be the hot ticket. Whether these captured people are soldiers or not, when or if it is decided they should be fertilizer should be considered by a military tribunal. Killing these people guarantees that any intel you might be able to get out of them is lost-and that information may well have saved some Joe Tentpeg out on patrol.
Just like a good boxer-emotions will get your tail beat in a fight. Doesn't mean I like the terrorists at all-I think they are worse than terrible, but they don't get to terrorize my country at will without getting their butts kicked nor are they going to turn me into one of them.
Just like a good boxer-emotions will get your tail beat in a fight. Doesn't mean I like the terrorists at all-I think they are worse than terrible, but they don't get to terrorize my country at will without getting their butts kicked nor are they going to turn me into one of them.
jmbg29 - you are correct in that spys do not receive protection under the Geneva Convention - however since the Geneva convention is predicated on identifiable troops (how do you identify the good guys from the bad guys in places where there are no uniforms) it seems to me that the 'enemy combatants' category was something ginned up to give the US an out, so as not to have to execute same. I have nothing to back that up, but coming up with yet another legal category for POWs would otherwise seem self-defeating.
Pax, Dr. Jones, et al: this whole conversation is really odd. At one time I had to help teach a block on the Geneva and Hague conventions when I was in the army (yeah long, long ago, I know things change but) we almost never had anyone who didn't understand the moral, ethical, legal, and for that matter reliable intelligence related problems with torture. What has happened to this country over the last decade or so? Have we really lost that much of our collective soul?
Pax, Dr. Jones, et al: this whole conversation is really odd. At one time I had to help teach a block on the Geneva and Hague conventions when I was in the army (yeah long, long ago, I know things change but) we almost never had anyone who didn't understand the moral, ethical, legal, and for that matter reliable intelligence related problems with torture. What has happened to this country over the last decade or so? Have we really lost that much of our collective soul?
I am amazed at ability of stories like this torture issue(true or false) to take on such importance.
It is, in my opinion, very crafty use of the media to bring down support of the USA's war effort.....Stories like this are clearly the weapons of choice for an enemy who has no chance against us on the battlefield.....I think this tactic is pathetic in a way but it may in fact prove very effective.
What am talking about?.....incidents like this torture case are mere cracks in our armour.....yea I said it and I'll say it again cracks in our armour.......How many prisinors are we holding and how many have died ......What would our enemies do to us in a similar situation?....am I suggesting that we do as our enemies do?...no...but I am suggesting that this standard that we are suposed to uphold is unrealistic and impossible.
Even with these 2 that died we are still the most compasionate nation that ever existed and will continue to be.
It's all about how the world will percieve us in the end and I am sick and tired of people looking at the mistakes we make rather than the good we do.....we are not perfect but in my opinion we are (more perfect) than we have to be.
Go ahead and make sense of that!
2 may or may not have died at the hands of US guards.
Thousands died on 9/11
I REMEMBER
It is, in my opinion, very crafty use of the media to bring down support of the USA's war effort.....Stories like this are clearly the weapons of choice for an enemy who has no chance against us on the battlefield.....I think this tactic is pathetic in a way but it may in fact prove very effective.
What am talking about?.....incidents like this torture case are mere cracks in our armour.....yea I said it and I'll say it again cracks in our armour.......How many prisinors are we holding and how many have died ......What would our enemies do to us in a similar situation?....am I suggesting that we do as our enemies do?...no...but I am suggesting that this standard that we are suposed to uphold is unrealistic and impossible.
Even with these 2 that died we are still the most compasionate nation that ever existed and will continue to be.
It's all about how the world will percieve us in the end and I am sick and tired of people looking at the mistakes we make rather than the good we do.....we are not perfect but in my opinion we are (more perfect) than we have to be.
Go ahead and make sense of that!
2 may or may not have died at the hands of US guards.
Thousands died on 9/11
I REMEMBER
jmbg29
member
Try reading the treaty. It is all there in black and white. "Insignia visible at a distance" etc... Something as simple as an armband will suffice. They don't want to do it because they are cowards. So I say screw 'em!
I never had any problem wearing my uniform, but then again I wasn't planning to hide behind women and babies and/or crawl under a rock.
See below
Agreed.
12-34hom
Member
Spin zone.
I don't care what kind of spin anyone wants to put on this subject.
Killing POW's or people held in captivity by U.S. forces while under interogation is wrong.
I remember 9-11 also - still don't make it right for this kind of actions to be taken by U.S forces. [if this story is true]. If true those accountable should be charged and tried in U.S. milatary court.
12-34hom.
I don't care what kind of spin anyone wants to put on this subject.
Killing POW's or people held in captivity by U.S. forces while under interogation is wrong.
I remember 9-11 also - still don't make it right for this kind of actions to be taken by U.S forces. [if this story is true]. If true those accountable should be charged and tried in U.S. milatary court.
12-34hom.
Waitone
Member
I'll refrain from exercising moral outrage until I've determined INDEPENDENT sources have verified the story AND that the timing and nature of death is clarified.
Another thought.
Classic example of the difference between cultures. While the west aspires to a higher standard, our immediate adversaries claim no such standards. Are we willing to exchange an increased body count for holding to our higher standards? What would our moral standards be if we wake up one morning and found AQ had detonate nukes in NY, DC, Chicago, and LA?
I for one hold to those higher standards. Modern psychological techniques are far more effective than a rubber hose in gathering information. I also believe Americans are human beings just like any other ethnic group. And being human means one is able to switch between savage and seminarian on a regularly basis. The more outrageous the behavior of the opposition the more likely our thin, flimsy veneer of civility will be peeled off revealing a really ugly monster. As a culture we have a strong moral code; we also have the technology to do some really bad things should or moral framework change.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Bush XLIII will be called upon to make moral decision the likes of which a president hasn't had to make since Truman.
Another thought.
Classic example of the difference between cultures. While the west aspires to a higher standard, our immediate adversaries claim no such standards. Are we willing to exchange an increased body count for holding to our higher standards? What would our moral standards be if we wake up one morning and found AQ had detonate nukes in NY, DC, Chicago, and LA?
I for one hold to those higher standards. Modern psychological techniques are far more effective than a rubber hose in gathering information. I also believe Americans are human beings just like any other ethnic group. And being human means one is able to switch between savage and seminarian on a regularly basis. The more outrageous the behavior of the opposition the more likely our thin, flimsy veneer of civility will be peeled off revealing a really ugly monster. As a culture we have a strong moral code; we also have the technology to do some really bad things should or moral framework change.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Bush XLIII will be called upon to make moral decision the likes of which a president hasn't had to make since Truman.
DeltaElite
Member
I do condone doing what is necessary to protect our people, if that entails alternate interrogation methods, so be it.
As I said, psyops can get intel without the use of physical force, leaving physical force as a primitive and ineffective technique.
It is far more important to me to prevent additional terrorist attacks, than to appease the international community and those who are concerned with the welfare of our enemies.
To some the horrors of 9/11 are just videotape, to some of us it is much more. It is smells, sounds, screams and tears.
For some it is just a TV show, but that is the curse for those of us who respond to the dead and dying, we take it very personally.
I buried a friend who transferred to NYPD and died in the WTC, so I take it very personally.
As I said, psyops can get intel without the use of physical force, leaving physical force as a primitive and ineffective technique.
It is far more important to me to prevent additional terrorist attacks, than to appease the international community and those who are concerned with the welfare of our enemies.
To some the horrors of 9/11 are just videotape, to some of us it is much more. It is smells, sounds, screams and tears.
For some it is just a TV show, but that is the curse for those of us who respond to the dead and dying, we take it very personally.
I buried a friend who transferred to NYPD and died in the WTC, so I take it very personally.
DeltaElite,
I am one of those you speak of......and when I mention it I often get negative .....Poor baby ......comments.
It frustrates me because mentioning it is a form of a battle cry for me, my family, friends and co workers (we built those towers) and too often I am met with blank stares and pacifism.
Someone said in another thread that if somebody was trying to kill their children they would not want to be held responsible for what they may do to their enemies....that thought resinates
I am one of those you speak of......and when I mention it I often get negative .....Poor baby
......comments.It frustrates me because mentioning it is a form of a battle cry for me, my family, friends and co workers (we built those towers) and too often I am met with blank stares and pacifism.
Someone said in another thread that if somebody was trying to kill their children they would not want to be held responsible for what they may do to their enemies....that thought resinates
DeltaElite
Member
Sonny,
I wasn't there in the flesh, but I was in spirit and heart.
I have watched people die, heard the screams, smelled the smells and cried the tears. I have buried three partners and had people try to kill me. I have a different perspective on life than most. One tempered by pain, misery and reality.
Hang in there, some of us know what it is like and others don't, but are happy to tell us what we should think.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know it is an ad hom attack, but here goes.
For some life is theory, for others it is reality.
Most of the policy makers and those critical of a warriors methods, live their life in the theoretical world, not the real one.
I wasn't there in the flesh, but I was in spirit and heart.
I have watched people die, heard the screams, smelled the smells and cried the tears. I have buried three partners and had people try to kill me. I have a different perspective on life than most. One tempered by pain, misery and reality.
Hang in there, some of us know what it is like and others don't, but are happy to tell us what we should think.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I know it is an ad hom attack, but here goes.
For some life is theory, for others it is reality.
Most of the policy makers and those critical of a warriors methods, live their life in the theoretical world, not the real one.
DeltaElite,
You know better.
I don't give a pitcher of warm spit for the opinions of the "international community" and I'm not a bit concerned with the welfare of our enemies. They are our enemies, after all.
Nor have I forgotten the evils of 9/11, nor do I want to "go easy" on the folks who did the foul deed. They should burn in hell for all eternity.
I doubt there is anyone on this board who doesn't feel the same way.
ahadams,
I'm afraid the answer to your question is, "yes." But keep in mind, you did have to teach the classes -- right? Civilized behaviour must be taught. It doesn't come naturally to most people.
pax
You cannot teach a crab to walk straight. -- Aristophanes
DeltaElite
Member
Pax,
No, I don't know better.
I can only attempt to understand the words as they are written, using my limited intelligence of course.
I do see where you stand, "a warm pitcher of spit" clarifies that extremely well.
-----------------------------------------------------------
It seems that some people are hung up on piety and theory, rather than the ugly reality of what may have to be done to prevent another attack.
I have watched this nations resolve on pursuing terrorists fade steadily over the last 18 months.
So no, I don't know better.
I see, what I feel, are people forgetting and moving back into their comfy lives.
I may be wrong, I hope I am, but I am doubtful that I am.
No, I don't know better.
I can only attempt to understand the words as they are written, using my limited intelligence of course.
I do see where you stand, "a warm pitcher of spit" clarifies that extremely well.
-----------------------------------------------------------
It seems that some people are hung up on piety and theory, rather than the ugly reality of what may have to be done to prevent another attack.
I have watched this nations resolve on pursuing terrorists fade steadily over the last 18 months.
So no, I don't know better.
I see, what I feel, are people forgetting and moving back into their comfy lives.
I may be wrong, I hope I am, but I am doubtful that I am.
faustulus
Member
jmbg29
We can argue semantics all day about POW vs. enemy combatant. Wrong is wrong. And if we do torture, if we do anything in the name of revenge, then the terrorists have won. See I am willing to scarifice 30,000 or 30 million so long as we don't become the monsters they are. All they can do is kill me, only I can give up my soul. Same with America, they can kill us, but we can destroy the freedom and justice our country stands for.
Someone has already made the point about the lack of uniforms, you don't agree and that is where we will just have to not see eye to eye.
Waitone,
yep
Maybe I am alone in this but morality is more important than life. See I think the life that comes next is more important and all they can do is kill me. A wise man once saidL: what profit has a man who gains the entire world but loses his immortal soul?
DeltaElite,
I fear for our country if most people think as you do.
Very little can be done in a free society to prevent harm. You have to make a decision. Is it more important to you to be moral and free or is it more important to be secure?
What is the difference in the arguement that we should do ANYTHING to prevent anonther attack and the arguement the anti's use that we should do ANYTHING to prevent another shooting?
When in this country did life mean so much as to abandon any morality just to continue living?
We can argue semantics all day about POW vs. enemy combatant. Wrong is wrong. And if we do torture, if we do anything in the name of revenge, then the terrorists have won. See I am willing to scarifice 30,000 or 30 million so long as we don't become the monsters they are. All they can do is kill me, only I can give up my soul. Same with America, they can kill us, but we can destroy the freedom and justice our country stands for.
Someone has already made the point about the lack of uniforms, you don't agree and that is where we will just have to not see eye to eye.
Waitone,
yep
Maybe I am alone in this but morality is more important than life. See I think the life that comes next is more important and all they can do is kill me. A wise man once saidL: what profit has a man who gains the entire world but loses his immortal soul?
DeltaElite,
I fear for our country if most people think as you do.
Very little can be done in a free society to prevent harm. You have to make a decision. Is it more important to you to be moral and free or is it more important to be secure?
What is the difference in the arguement that we should do ANYTHING to prevent anonther attack and the arguement the anti's use that we should do ANYTHING to prevent another shooting?
When in this country did life mean so much as to abandon any morality just to continue living?
Baba Louie
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2002
- Messages
- 3,831
faustulus,
Probably came about when the first settlers were wiped out without a trace 'cause the indigenous people didn't want them here?
Maybe?
Doesn't mean its right or anything, just a reality.
Ya don't see too many of the locals (pre-white man) wandering around anymore do ya?
Morally reprehensible by todays standards, granted. Sad, anthropologically, to be a resultant of a genocide's victor, which I am.
But I do remember Sept 11, 01, just staring at the TV and thinking "the payback's gonna be a ..." Well, it won't be pretty.
And its not... is it?
Adios
Probably came about when the first settlers were wiped out without a trace 'cause the indigenous people didn't want them here?
Maybe?
Doesn't mean its right or anything, just a reality.
Ya don't see too many of the locals (pre-white man) wandering around anymore do ya?
Morally reprehensible by todays standards, granted. Sad, anthropologically, to be a resultant of a genocide's victor, which I am.
But I do remember Sept 11, 01, just staring at the TV and thinking "the payback's gonna be a ..." Well, it won't be pretty.
And its not... is it?
Adios
jmbg29
member
My position on the torture/killing is that it remains to be seen who is responsible for it. I didn't condone it.
Your position has been that we must follow the rules. Fair enough. We have well established rules (over 139 years old) that constitute what a lawful combatant is. Guess you only want to follow the rules that you agree with.
First, I want to say that I don't necessarily believe that our people actually did torture others.
As has been said, that remains to be seen.
However, this has turned into a thread debating the morality of torture, and that is how I posted initially, and how I now continue.
That said:
Ditto 100%
I too am afraid if most people would in fact condone torture.
If you do condone torture, you cannot say that you are any better than those who planned and executed 9/11.
As has been said, that remains to be seen.
However, this has turned into a thread debating the morality of torture, and that is how I posted initially, and how I now continue.
That said:
Ditto 100%
I too am afraid if most people would in fact condone torture.
If you do condone torture, you cannot say that you are any better than those who planned and executed 9/11.
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