Strings
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Ummm... High Road, people... High Road!
Anyone know any felon shooters?
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Powderman
Member
Didn't say that I knew all the laws...
as a matter of fact, I can't say that I even know the majority of them--even in my own State.
However, the fact remains that I make it a point to not consciously break any laws--that I am aware of.
There are still the elements of a "criminal act" to consider:
RECKLESSNESS: Proceeding with the act regardless of the consequences.
INTENT: The signified intent to complete the act.
NEGLIGENCE: Commission, or attempted commission of the act with no regard of the impact it has on others--not exercising care or caution (similar to recklessness)
and, the big one,
CRIMINAL KNOWLEDGE: The knowledge that what you are doing/about to do IS a criminal act.
Is anyone here perfect? I don't think so. Is anyone here better than anyone else? I doubt it seriously.
And, back to the main question:
Do I believe that ALL persons convicted of a felony should be stripped of a good portion of their Constitutional rights, for the rest of their lives?
NO. NO. A THOUSAND TIMES, NO!
Now, that being said, would I willingly and with forethought break the law, by knowingly allowing a felon access to a firearm and ammunition?
Again, NO.
Yes, it sucks. But the fact remains--I have taken an oath to uphold the law. I will not break that oath. And, until the law is changed, convicted felons have lost the right to bear arms.
We can talk about this until we are blue in the face, but that fact remains. And until it is changed by law, it is the law of the land.
You don't have to like it, but you DO have to follow it--or be willing to pay the consequences.
as a matter of fact, I can't say that I even know the majority of them--even in my own State.
However, the fact remains that I make it a point to not consciously break any laws--that I am aware of.
There are still the elements of a "criminal act" to consider:
RECKLESSNESS: Proceeding with the act regardless of the consequences.
INTENT: The signified intent to complete the act.
NEGLIGENCE: Commission, or attempted commission of the act with no regard of the impact it has on others--not exercising care or caution (similar to recklessness)
and, the big one,
CRIMINAL KNOWLEDGE: The knowledge that what you are doing/about to do IS a criminal act.
Is anyone here perfect? I don't think so. Is anyone here better than anyone else? I doubt it seriously.
And, back to the main question:
Do I believe that ALL persons convicted of a felony should be stripped of a good portion of their Constitutional rights, for the rest of their lives?
NO. NO. A THOUSAND TIMES, NO!
Now, that being said, would I willingly and with forethought break the law, by knowingly allowing a felon access to a firearm and ammunition?
Again, NO.
Yes, it sucks. But the fact remains--I have taken an oath to uphold the law. I will not break that oath. And, until the law is changed, convicted felons have lost the right to bear arms.
We can talk about this until we are blue in the face, but that fact remains. And until it is changed by law, it is the law of the land.
You don't have to like it, but you DO have to follow it--or be willing to pay the consequences.
FNFiveSeven
Member
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You can't lose an inalienable right.
I don't buy this excuse. Are you saying that because of your "oath", you never break the law?! Never drive 1 mph over the speed limit, never j-walk? Furthermore, are you saying you would never break the law, even if every moral fiber in your body told you it was the right thing to do? C'mon. Let's say a riot breaks out in your neighborhood, and your next door neighbor (a non-violent ex-felon) needs to borrow your shotgun, what are you going to do? Uphold your oath?
What this thread has done is seperate the robots from the free thinking humans. For every law there is an exception. Not all laws are moraly right. Any may made law that infringes upon the natural law is not a law we have to follow.
The problem we have with the courts today is that they place mans law above Gods law thinking they are wiser than He.
The problem we have with the courts today is that they place mans law above Gods law thinking they are wiser than He.
Thread lock a coming! Anyways I knew a guy that used to do it, obviously he had to buy all his guns in private sales.
His story,which I believed, was he had met some girl at a bar, went to her house to have sex, continue drinking. He did not know the house was involved in the manufacture and sale of meth.
House gets a SWAT team raid and he is also charged with some sort of serious drug charge, ends up getting like 3 year sentence. To add insult to injury, he gets shot in prison by a guard while getting in to a fight with another inmate who attacked him or something. Almost died.
Guy seemed to be a regular working man and he gave up drinking too after the choice he made to go home with that girl but I hope he never ended up getting caught with guns.
His story,which I believed, was he had met some girl at a bar, went to her house to have sex, continue drinking. He did not know the house was involved in the manufacture and sale of meth.
House gets a SWAT team raid and he is also charged with some sort of serious drug charge, ends up getting like 3 year sentence. To add insult to injury, he gets shot in prison by a guard while getting in to a fight with another inmate who attacked him or something. Almost died.
Guy seemed to be a regular working man and he gave up drinking too after the choice he made to go home with that girl but I hope he never ended up getting caught with guns.
db_tanker
Member
Some have stood up for the "evil law-breaking individual"...others have not...as Joey2 has stated, the Sheeple have seperated themselves from those who think and feel.
I haven't read through the entire thread, but has anyone here actually though about what it would be like to be stripped of what we love?
This would be the same thing as living in one of these third-world countries that we read about and see the talking heads discuss. I would daresay that, if it were me, I would feel more than naked...unprotected...vulnerable...I first read some of this post yesterday, and all the rest of the day and into the night...while watching my Astros get what they truly deserve...it was turning in the back of my mind how I would feel...I didn't like that feeling...
This worries me.
Shall I quote The Rolling Stones?
Just as all the cops are criminals,
and all the sinners saints...
NO OFFENSE meant to any LEO in here, okay?
Darrell
I haven't read through the entire thread, but has anyone here actually though about what it would be like to be stripped of what we love?
This would be the same thing as living in one of these third-world countries that we read about and see the talking heads discuss. I would daresay that, if it were me, I would feel more than naked...unprotected...vulnerable...I first read some of this post yesterday, and all the rest of the day and into the night...while watching my Astros get what they truly deserve...it was turning in the back of my mind how I would feel...I didn't like that feeling...
This worries me.
Shall I quote The Rolling Stones?
Just as all the cops are criminals,
and all the sinners saints...
NO OFFENSE meant to any LEO in here, okay?
Darrell
M-Rex
member
Yes, I have. That's precisely why I don't run around committing felonies. Actually, I don't think this thread separates the 'robots' from 'free thinking humans' so much as it separates people who know there are consequences for actions and people who believe there shouldn't be.
This is classic. This is the quintessential 'inmate excuse story'. 'It's always someone else's fault', or 'I was just sittin' there doin' nothin'. EVERY inmate has a version of this story. This is the story he tells his wife/girlfriend/friend in the visiting room. I've heard this same story, or rather particular attitude, literally hundreds of times.
1. I make good money and I researched where I live. I don't live where riots break out.
2. See above. I don't live next to FELONS (there is no such thing as an ex-felon).
3. No guns loaned. Any questions?
Behold! The Threadlock is coming!
Kramer Krazy
Member
All I can say is that I don't know any convicted felons, but......I have seen some people commit felonies....and some involving firearms. 
Zundfolge
Member
And my point is that I would bet you've committed several felonies over the years and not known it. Because so many things that shouldn't be felonies have been made into felonies and thus watered down the term "Felon" that the only thing that separates you from these "evil scum felons" is that you've never been caught.M-Rex said:
Therefore blindly and in blanket fashion claiming that "Felon=bad person; no exception" is a false and inaccurate way to look at the people around you.
I call shenanigans.
Clearly nobody here is defending people who have been convicted of what are honest to God "high crimes" (rape, robbery and other violent crimes) but we just must be wary of allowing the government to strip people of their God given, inalienable rights just because of the title "felon" especially when its government that gets to define what a felony is (if some overzealous legislature decides to make J-Walking a felony are you going to be all high, mighty and superior acting around some poor slob who didn't cross at the light? Are you going to claim it would be dangerous and irresponsible to let that guy have a gun?).
Just remember that in this day and age of "felonies"; There but for the grace of God go I.
And I keep pointing to my sig because this is EXACTLY what Ayn Rand warned us about.
M-Rex
member
Bet me.
You are operating under a false assumption that people cannot control their base impulses. Please don't try to use others to justify your lack of self control.
Gordon Fink
Member
No, M-Rex. He is arguing that you have probably filled out a government form incorrectly at some point in your life … accidentally and with no ill intent.
~G. Fink
~G. Fink
Aikibiker
Member
While working as a Corrections Officer I met quite a few felons who were open with me about owning weapons out on the street. One trustee I had was an avid hunter and shooter despite being in and out of prison on a regular basis. When I asked him how he got around the laws on firearms he told me: "I don't own any guns, but my wife has one hell of a collection!"
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
NineseveN said:
Neither the 5th or 14th amendments say anything about rights being limited only during time of imprisonment. The 5th just saying you won't be deprived without due process. Part of that due process is a loss of rights after being found guilty. It does not say the rights will be reinstated. Similar words are found in the 14th as well. With due process, your rights can be curtailed. Imagine that. Can you tell me where it says that the rights will be given back after completion of a felony sentence?
So, the aforementioned claim and battlecry of "shall not be infringed" is a conditional statement that is most definitely NOT absolute and is actually in conflict with later Amendments, except that later amendments trump previous amendment. The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed...so long as you have not committed a capital or otherwise infamous crime and been found guilty after due process.
NineseveN, I do appreciate you drawing to my attention the fact that the later amendments most definitely state that a person's rights can be infringed after due process, thereby answering your own challenge to the contrary,
It isn't in the 2nd, but the 2nd isn't the only amendment that pertains to gun rights. I appreciate you being person enough to admit to your error and answer your own challenge.
Article [V.]
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Article XIV.
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age,(See Note 15) and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.
Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
Zundfolge
Member
M-Rex said:
You are operating under a false assumption that all felonies are things that are obviously illegal and therefore only "bad" people would ever be convicted of a felony.
Like I said earlier, if I assemble my Steyr pistol carbine kit in the wrong order I've committed a felony (that is if I put the stock on the gun before putting the 16" barrel on it) ... making that mistake doesn't require a lack of control of base impulses, it could easily be done by any law abiding person by accident. All anyone would have to do is happen to put it together at the range in front of an ATF agent who just happened to be there (or maybe if I accidentally put it together in front of YOU you'd fell obligated to turn me in to the feds).
There are many examples of these kind of "procedural felonies". Living in California you're probably at more risk of this crap then me here in Colorado.
But I'm sure I'm just lying to cover for my lack of self control and you really are 0% police state
Edited to add an example:
I hope you're never walking along in the woods and stumble across an interesting feather ... decide to take the feather home (although I'm sure you have more impulse control then that). As you're walking out of the woods you walk past a park ranger who arrests you (possibly at gunpoint) because the feather in your hand is *gasp* from an American Bald Eagle. Possession of an American Bald Eagle feather is a Felony. Of course in your world anyone who would dare pick a feather up off the ground is probably an inch away from becoming a crazed killer
thorn726
Member
m-rex has some issues, obviously.
i think he feels a need to justify the system he is part of.
at the same time, the rest of us are determined to prove he commited at least one felony during his life.
how about a compromise already?
like maybe not all felonies should reult in loss of RKBA, while accepting it is possible he never commited one.
i think he feels a need to justify the system he is part of.
at the same time, the rest of us are determined to prove he commited at least one felony during his life.
how about a compromise already?
like maybe not all felonies should reult in loss of RKBA, while accepting it is possible he never commited one.
M-Rex
member
Gordon Fink said:
If it's an accident and there was no ill intent, then it's not a felony.
M-Rex
member
Zundfolge said:
You are operating under a false assumption that all felonies are things that are obviously illegal and therefore only "bad" people would ever be convicted of a felony.
Like I said earlier, if I assemble my Steyr pistol carbine kit in the wrong order I've committed a felony (that is if I put the stock on the gun before putting the 16" barrel on it) ... making that mistake doesn't require a lack of control of base impulses, it could easily be done by any law abiding person by accident. All anyone would have to do is happen to put it together at the range in front of an ATF agent who just happened to be there (or maybe if I accidentally put it together in front of YOU you'd fell obligated to turn me in to the feds).
There are many examples of these kind of "procedural felonies". Living in California you're probably at more risk of this crap then me here in Colorado.
But I'm sure I'm just lying to cover for my lack of self control and you really are 0% police state
Edited to add an example:
I hope you're never walking along in the woods and stumble across an interesting feather ... decide to take the feather home (although I'm sure you have more impulse control then that). As you're walking out of the woods you walk past a park ranger who arrests you (possibly at gunpoint) because the feather in your hand is *gasp* from an American Bald Eagle. Possession of an American Bald Eagle feather is a Felony. Of course in your world anyone who would dare pick a feather up off the ground is probably an inch away from becoming a crazed killer
Zund...you are trying too hard. You are splitting hairs and trying to find justifications to your world view.
Am I missing something here? Felonies are things that are obviously illegal. Hence that's why we call them F E L O N I E S.
Strings
Member
M-Rex: it's one thing to accept that there are consequences for your actions. It's quite another to have to continue paying for a mistake that you've already paid your dues for.
So... my friend made a mistake. He admitted it, paid the price for it, and he has to continue paying? That isn't reasonible, by any stretch of the imagination. To compound matters, his WIFE was tole that SHE couldn't have a gun either, because they live together. So... because he made a mistake (due to circumatsnces, he wasn't thinking cearly at all), it's ok in your worldview that they no longer be able to defend themselves?
Nothing in life is either black or white. There are MANY shades of grey...
So... my friend made a mistake. He admitted it, paid the price for it, and he has to continue paying? That isn't reasonible, by any stretch of the imagination. To compound matters, his WIFE was tole that SHE couldn't have a gun either, because they live together. So... because he made a mistake (due to circumatsnces, he wasn't thinking cearly at all), it's ok in your worldview that they no longer be able to defend themselves?
Nothing in life is either black or white. There are MANY shades of grey...
Zundfolge
Member
Okay, in theory yes ... good luck if you ever find yourself staring down the gavel though. Despite the whole notions of "innocent until proven guilty" and "the burden of proof lies on the prosecution" the reality of the situation is that you will be the one who has to prove "no ill intent".M-Rex said:
I'm sure a fine upstanding citizen with perfect impulse control such as yourself would NEVER run into an overzealous prosecutor (especially since based on your posts I assume you're a cop) but most of us proles out here don't have a badge to hide behind or can afford top drawer lawyers to protect us from an overzealous prosecutor.
Add to that legislatures that constantly crank out new and sillier "felonies" (like a new law in New Mexico that allows you to be charged with a felony if your dog bites someone) and you're going to see more and more good, honest, decent people who are "felons".
M-Rex said:
Ugh ...yes YOU ARE MISSING SOMETHING ... you seem to refuse to actually read my posts. There are tons of things that are illegal that you would never in a million years believe are illegal (some are old laws that nobody enforces, some are created by extremely complex laws like the Endangered Species Act). Among these laws, some are felonies.
You can tell me honestly that you KNEW since you where in short pants that picking up a feather off the ground in the woods could easily be a felony? Maybe you where born an expert in ornithology, but I doubt I could identify a Bald Eagle feather on sight.
I'm defending a world view that says that laws should be rooted in common sense ... that punishment should also fit the crime and that the reality is that our legal system has drifted closer and closer to a jack booted police state and I'm amazed that there are so many people who gleefully champion the coming police state (I guess if you get to be the police in said police state that you really could care less about the injustice heaped upon the people ... some animals are more equal then others eh?)
M-Rex
member
Zundfolge said:
Well, no, because I don't run afowl of 'overzealous prosecutors' as a habit.
I have a gut suspicion that your definition of 'overzealous prosecutor' is a bit on the liberal side. Answer: Control your dog. Any questions?
If they are unenforceable, are they, in fact, crimes?
I can honestly tell you that I don't skip merrily through the forest picking up the droppings from various and sundry fauna. That's kind of weird.
Yeah, yeah, yeah...blah blah blah...f*ck da po po, all cops are pigs, power to the people, fight da man, vast right wing conspiracy, big brother, Animal Farm...blah blah blah. I've heard it all before.
Your 'common sense' sounds an aweful lot like garden variety anarchist propaganda to me.
Zundfolge
Member
Yep, most overzealous prosecutors are liberalsM-Rex said:Well, no, because I don't run afowl of 'overzealous prosecutors' as a habit.
And if you don't you deserve to lose your voting and gun rights forever?
I didn't say unenforceable, I said not enforced ... big difference (I'm talking there about laws that require you to get out of your car and shoot a pistol in the air when you come to an intersection, or laws against mustaches and such).
Weird means its right to revoke someone's voting and gun rights forever? And there I'm just pointing out that there is all sorts of ridiculous crap that you can be charged and convicted of a felony for?
Heard it all before and probably continute to contribute to the tainting of those men with badges who are honorable men capable of independent thought and proud to be called an officer of the peace instead of demanding to be called Law Enforcement Officers while they call their fellow citizens civilians.
Responding to my arguments with bumper stickers doesn't make your argument any more "common sense". Oh and big brother is part of the vast left wing conspiracy.
Yeah, those garden variety anarchists like Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Ben Franklin and all those other kooks who thought that jack booted enforcement of capricious laws was a bad thing.Your 'common sense' sounds an aweful lot like garden variety anarchist propaganda to me.
Derby FALs
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Zundfolge
Member
Yeah ... but oral sex is weird and liberalDerby FALs said:
Derby FALs
Member In Memoriam
Zundfolge said:Yeah ... but oral sex is weird and liberal
Aye. Can you imagine oral sex with a Republican woman?
thorn726
Member
ok now we're going too far, i am sliding into the gutter.
(we got ALL kinds in California) ill leave it at that
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