Bush Plan a Magnet | Immigrants cite lure of border proposal

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Most of us here think the welfare system is bloated and abused, but I don't think we can afford to wait for the repeal of the safety net before we address the illegal alien problem.

To repeat what I've said before, we've had twenty years of open borders and we already have untold millions of illegal aliens already here to man the jobs Americans allegedly don't want to do. Like others I think the issue is the wages paid; Americans don't want to work for Third World wages, without protections. And why should they? Because some Americans are willing to hire anyone who shows up, whether the law of the land's being broken or not?

If we are going to talk racism, which I personally think is a non-issue for Americans at this juncture and should not be waved as some kind of excuse for bad policy, we should discuss it on a bi-lateral basis. How much racism is directed toward the gringo by pro-Aztlan separatists within this country? How much anti-American feeling, including aims of repatriation, is being whipped up south of the border? Mexico has managed to conflate issues of economics with issues of national pride and machismo. That's a recipe for future disaster, on both sides of the border.

And I will add... When and if that fat, lazy, escapist, couch-dwelling norteamericano ever DOES get up, it won't be to go to the refrigerator. Bush has opened a can of worms. I hope he likes the flavor.
 
We deal with illegal immigration by admitting first of all that mistakes have been made and deciding to not keep making them. That means getting serious about tightening the borders, using whatever application of money and force it takes to do the job. It means removing the carrot for both workers and employer, including heavy fines for employers. It means cracking down on public benefits for illegals--no more free health care, free education. It means curtailing money transfers out of this country. It means ending jus soli and the automatic citizenship of children born to people here illegally. It means only a limited guest worker program in selected business sectors. It means getting tough with Mexico about a whole range of issues, including drugs and extradition issues, including rights to investment south of the border.

In the end we will end up legalizing and, finally, granting citizenship to some former illegals, perhaps a few million, but we will stop the influx in its tracks, not expand it. We need a tourniquet, not a wider wound.

Those who think we can't do any of this are setting this country up for much worse down the road, whether it's civil war or just outright fiscal collapse.
 
Where's the money coming from? How do you accomplish this politically? What about the crushing blow the economy will suffer if you cut off the labor pool of dozens of industries? Money transfers? Yikes, what do you mean? We can no longer invest in overseas mutual funds?:eek:
 
El Tejon, you asked for The Answer. That's some of it. Pick and choose. Will any of it happen, for better or for worse? I don't know. In the end both countries will have to evolve a bit, won't they? But Mexico, it seems to me, needs more evolution. We could help with that, via investment, whether large-scale or micro-loans, to modernize Mexico and provide jobs. If Bush wanted to help this situation he would have found a way to provide economic aid, in the right ways, to Mexico. Is Mexico not as important to us as Iraq? I think so, don't you? The problem is, for investment to work, we need far better politicians on both sides of the border; we don't American dynasties in bed with Mexican dynasties. Don't get the idea I'm for turning this problem into an adversarial situation; I am not. In the long run a lot of Mexicans, whether they've become U.S. citizens or not, will go back to Mexico and probably change the system for the better. I'd like to believe that. Maybe they will be joined, if the cultural climate improves down there, by Americans, not just of Mexican or Latin descent, who can see Mexico as a good place to invest money and build a future. I think Bush could sell an investment program that enriches both countries and preserves jobs here and increases jobs there. For some reason, no doubt cheap labor and cheap votes, he doesn't want to.
 
There will be no crushing blow to the economy. It might be painful in the short term in some areas, but much healthier for the long term. I do believe that we can tackle the ILLEGAL immigration problem much easier than we can battle entrenched welfare. Both must be solved, but we need to put a touniquet on the bleeding of illegal immigration now.

We are spending $100s of billions on the WOT to prevent another $3B incident. Yet annual illegal immigration costs far more, is recurring, and will grow exponentially into the future as the unskilled laborers get older.

Logistically speaking, I can not address the enforcement issue. We have significant technology, some of which I am probably not aware of. All types of unmanned surveillance capabilities.

This is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy for GWB. The gates have already opened with reports showing that our southern neighbors have seen the green light.

The unskilled work force we are inviting will become slave labor.
 
wolf, O.K. assuming arguendo that your statements are correct, how would you deal with immigration
----------------------------------------------------

The scope of the problem must be recognized. The emotional aspect should be removed along with the political pandering agenda from both parties.

Doing the above is all but impossible I realize. The end result is for employers to be fined if they hire illegals (laws already on the books) and increased border (north & south - and air & sea ports) (job creation by the way--HIRE AMERICANS please) security. Not necessarily the military.

If the cost of doing business hurts enough and employers do not hire illegals the word will travel fast. Of course I realize the "illegal document trade" will boom and enforcement would be very costly, but not as much as it costs now is subsidies of health, education & welfare payments to illegals.

Approaches such as this, while very labor intensive, would not be a hard sell to the American public. The anger/backlash of not being heard, by voters, is going to unravel at some point and is already manifesting in lost votes for Bush, regardless of the war. If we can defend "borders" of other countries lets defend OURS first !!!

Will illegals go home? Not at first..but the sudden backlash in Mexico and other countries that laugh at us for doing nothing would suddenly change when they realize revolution is on their door step. Illegal immigration is their "safety valve". Many Mexicans believe that they have a right to the southwest US and its theirs.

Keep in mind that Mexico is a very oil rich country and has abundant natural resources and farm land. It just has not developed its infrastructure or created an industrial style society. Also their educational system is 75-100 years behind ours and all other social progress dependent on education is muted. Same can be said for other central & south American countries. Yes corruption plays a major part in this as their "governments" take all the national income and keep it for themselves and throw crumbs to the people with promised better days to come.

A full solution..no, but part of it..but better than what we are doing now..which is nothing.

wolf
 
(Adios middleclass:)


Median Income Drops Are Tied to Immigrants
NY Times
By STEVEN GREENHOUSE

Median household income dropped between 1989 and 1998 in Queens, Brooklyn, Suffolk, Fairfield and many other counties across the nation that experienced a large influx of immigrants, according to new census data.

The data indicate that even as the economy in the New York region and the nation rebounded after the recession of the early 90's, figures for median household income, adjusted for inflation, failed to climb in many counties because of the increase in low-income immigrant workers.

The new data show that in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx — counties with a major increase of immigrants — median income fell sharply. More surprising, though, was the marked income drop in some of the region's wealthiest suburbs, including Nassau, Suffolk and Westchester Counties in New York and Fairfield County in Connecticut.

"Immigrants are jumping immediately into these inner-ring suburbs, which is a change from the past 300 years, when the first generation lived in inner-city neighborhoods," said Robert D. Yaro, executive director of the Regional Plan Association, a civic group that works to improve the economy of the New York region. "This new phenomenon is reducing household incomes in some of the well-to-do suburbs as immigrants move into Bridgeport, Stamford and Norwalk. It's consistent with the national phenomenon of the suburbanization of poverty."

The new data show that median income also fell in many counties in other states attractive to immigrants, including Los Angeles County and Miami-Dade County.

In Queens, according to the data, the median household income fell to $36,480 in 1998 from $44,938 in 1989, a drop of nearly 19 percent, while in Brooklyn it fell by 18 percent, to $27,556 from $33,762.

In Los Angeles County, where there has been a surge of immigrants from Mexico, median income fell in constant dollars to $37,655 in 1998 from $45,962, a decline of 18 percent, according to the census data.

Andrew A. Beveridge, a professor of sociology at Queens College, prepared the analysis that compared the Census Bureau's median income estimates for 1989 and 1998.

Many economists view the median as the best figure for assessing income trends since half the incomes are above it and half below.

Several economists and sociologists, however, argued that the new census data exaggerated the income drop from 1989 to 1998. They said that although median household income might have fallen in many counties, it did not fall as much as the new data suggested.

These economists questioned the new computer model developed by the Census Bureau, and they noted that there was a higher margin of error in analyzing small areas like counties. In addition, critics argued that the way inflation was adjusted might have exaggerated the drop in median income.

Stephen Kagann, chief economist for Gov. George E. Pataki, said the estimated declines were not credible.

"They use an inappropriate starting point, 1989, which was a cyclical peak, thereby ignoring the deep recession that occurred afterwards," Mr. Kagann said. "And they use an inappropriate inflation adjustment that overestimates inflation and thereby underestimates the growth in income."

He said that if the analysis had taken 1993 as its starting point, when New York's economy was near the bottom, the study would have shown a 7.9 percent increase in median household income statewide.

Jared Bernstein, an economist with the liberal Economic Policy Institute, also said that the new census data painted too gloomy a picture. Pointing to another census study, from last March, he noted that median household income for New York State dropped by 7 percent from 1989 to 1998. He added that a 5 percent increase in income in the two boom years, 1999 and 2000, meant a decline of just 2 percent from 1989 to 2000.

Still, he saw economic problems in the state. "In New York, you've had an amplified version of the expanded income gap we've seen nationally," he said. "Folks in the high end — in law, high tech, financial markets — were in a good place to ride the boom. Meanwhile, the huge supply of low-wage workers who were serving these upper-end workers during the boom didn't do nearly as well."

Mr. Beveridge's analysis estimated that median income in Nassau County fell by 14 percent ($61,096 in 1998 from $71,202 in 1989), 16 percent in Suffolk ($54,008 from $64,580), 11 percent in Westchester ($56,865 from $63,629), 12 percent in Fairfield ($57,389 from 65,583), 12 percent in Hudson County ($35,743 from $40,641), 17 percent in Passaic County ($40,923 from $49,421) and by 10 percent in Essex County ($40,595 from $45,375).

While critics derided the numbers, Mr. Beveridge defended them, saying the arrival of immigrants in Bridgeport, Yonkers, Paterson, Hempstead and other communities could have caused a double-digit decrease in income.

In the preponderance of counties nationwide, median household income rose from 1989 to 1998. The counties with declines were often in metropolitan areas with the greatest surges in immigration, including New York, Miami, Los Angeles, San Diego and Washington.

Roger Waldinger, an immigration expert at the University of California at Los Angeles, said the decline in household income could have been fueled by factors having nothing to do with immigration, like the increase in one-member and single- parent households.

Economists have pointed to other reasons for stagnant or declining incomes, including pressure from import competition, the declining power of labor unions, automation that pushes workers out of jobs and poor schools that churn out students who lack job skills.

Dr. Waldinger has conducted studies showing that in many communities, immigration affects income levels and the gap between rich and poor. He said income levels were dragged down by unemployment, not immigrants, who he said usually worked long hours. But many economists say limited skills and inadequate English relegated many immigrants to low-paying jobs.
 
I'll bet $5 that within 24 months we see civilians forming armed border patrols to take out coyotes and border crossers, claiming they are the militia and they are repelling invaders per the Constitution. Hell, we already see civilian border patrols patrolling and calling reports in to the Border Patrol, carrying arms for self defense.

I'll bet $10 that within 12 months anti-mexican violence in the south and in cities where "illegals" tend to congregate.
 
That is great. The perfect storm. Wages going down or stagnant, and taxes going up, plus government deficits all over the place. Manufacturing jobs going overseas, foreign outsourcing of jobs, Corporate HQ going offshore to evade taxes, and importation of lower paid high tech workers to displace Americans that corporate America will not hire.

Welcome to the United States of American, Inc.

Saw an article the other day in the Washington Times, that illegal aliens cost taxpayers a net of $78 billion a year, and this accounting for the estimated taxes they pay.

By the way El Tejon, you might not have noticed, but there has been significant welfare reform for years now. Many of those welfare loafers were given the option of going to work or loose their welfare benefits. Many went to work.

I wonder how many of those former loafers and now unemployed because illegal aliens took their job? The unemployment rate recently dropped from 5.9% to 5.7% and it is not attributed to people getting jobs, but people stopped looking.
 
You want to know the problem?

The problem is that even here on THR this thread gets 400 views and news on the Rohrbaugh pistol gets 13,000 views (!).

Forgive me if I find that a mite disheartening.:D
 
The problem is that even here on THR this thread gets 400 views and news on the Rohrbaugh pistol gets 13,000 views (!).


Sad fact is we live in a society that doesnt care until it bites them. Then we
as a group over react and I fear that will happen in the case of immigration,
legal and illegal.
 
L.A. Times, today, cover story - the tide turning?

COVER STORY
Infinite Ingress
A Human Wave Is Breaking Over California. It's Flooding the Freeways and Schools. It's Bloating the Cost of
Housing. It's Disrupting Power and Water Supplies. Ignoring Reality Hasn't Worked.


By Lee Green, For the Times


By birth, by foot, by automobile, from other states and other countries, legally and illegally, people have arrived
in California for decades in unrelenting swells, human surf breaking steadily on a vast shore. Occasionally a big
set rolls in and harasses state and local officials trying to determine how many new classrooms to build or where
to bury the trash, but Californians take it in stride. You can complain, but what good would it do? You can
complain about winter, too, but it comes anyway.

We tolerate endless strip malls, foul air, contaminated runoff, window-rattling boom boxes and the weekend
crush at Costco and Home Depot. We remain composed in the face of runaway housing prices, electricity
shortages, crowded schools and—well, maybe not crowded schools. That one rankles. But what we suffer even
less well than crowded schools, the thing that makes even the most tolerant Californians notice that their cities
have become overstuffed, is all the endless, miserable, stinking, standing traffic. In Los Angeles, in San Diego, in
Sacramento, in the Bay Area, freeway traffic sits like an automotive still life, then inches along as we fume in the
fumes. On a roadside in San Jose after a fender bender, a driver grabs another driver's small dog, Leo, and
throws the helpless animal into oncoming traffic.

This is what it has come to in California. We live in the Age of Leo.

If projections through 2040 by demographers in the state Department of Finance prove accurate, conditions will
only get worse. Much worse. New residents continue to wash over California's borders, but the state is neither
attempting to restrain growth nor building adequate infrastructure to accommodate it. And the boat continues to
fill.

During the last half of the last century—an epoch encompassing most of the baby boom and, a generation later,
all of the boom's echo—the state's population grew by more than 24 million. The next 24 million—more than the
population of Illinois, Indiana, Iowa and Nebraska combined—will arrive more quickly, inflating the total to
nearly 60 million within 36 years. Barring the long-overdue mother of all earthquakes, a tightening of federal
immigration policy, or the Rapture, California's population, currently at 36 million, likely will double within the
lifetime of today's schoolchildren. A close look at the numbers suggests that the 1990s began a pattern in which
California receives more new residents each decade than it did the previous one. The 2020s will witness the
greatest 10-year increase in state history, and the numbers in the 2030s will be greater still.

"Come to California," Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger urged the world more than once in his State of the State
address this month. But most residents are not happy about this trend. In a 2001 statewide poll conducted by
the Public Policy Institute of California, half of the respondents said they considered the previous decade's
population growth a "bad thing." More than four of five said that continued growth would make the state a less
desirable place to live.

U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein isn't happy about the numbers either. "I find them very distressing and I'll tell you
why. If the growth comes before the ability to handle that growth, what you inevitably have is a backlash. That's
what drove Proposition 187," she says. That 1994 ballot measure, overwhelmingly approved by voters but later
gutted by the courts on constitutional grounds, sought to deprive illegal immigrants of most state-funded social
benefits. "I think growth is California's No. 1 problem, and how that growth happens is critical to the future of
the state," the Democratic senator adds. "The problem is that most of the growth is concentrated on the West
Coast and in cities."

One of the best remedies would be to improve north-south transportation, Feinstein says, specifically by building
"a rail spine down the center of the state so that you would be better able to diffuse population instead of having
huge congested cities growing all the time with more stress and more strain. I do a lot of flying over California.
There is a lot of space in California."

In other words, there's plenty of room at the Hotel California as long as everyone doesn't keep checking into the
same overused rooms.

The Eagles were right: This could be heaven or this could be hell. But the more closely you examine California's
plight, the more the heaven part looks iffy. No other state has so many residents (Texas ranks second, but with
almost 40% fewer people), and no other state comes close to matching California's annual net population
increase. In Los Angeles County and five surrounding counties—Orange, San Bernardino, Riverside, Ventura
and Imperial—the population now stands at more than 17 million. That's nearly 6% of the U.S. population, one
in every 17 Americans, all within a four-hour drive—if you can find four hours when the traffic isn't bad. At least
20% already live in crowded housing, and poverty levels have increased steadily for three decades. Yet during
the next 25 years the region is projected to grow by 6 million.

This is not exactly a formula for a Golden State.

Most of the conversation about growth these days revolves around principles of growth management—"smart
growth" in planning-speak. Schwarzenegger is heading down this road, rhetorically anyway. Smart growth
emphasizes increasing density in cities as an alternative to sprawl, enabling people to live close to where they
work, minimizing environmental impact, preserving open space, and encouraging public transit, bicycling, and
walking rather than driving. But the discussion is always about accommodating growth, never about slowing,
limiting, or stabilizing it. Mention the idea of somehow trying to limit the population and politicians react as though
you have suggested that our society eat cats and dogs instead of cows and pigs. Curb population growth? The
very notion is unthinkable because—well, this is America.

"How do you do it?" Feinstein asks. "Are you going to tell people not to have children? I don't think so. I have
never had a single county official say, 'We have decided we want to slow growth in our county, and here's how
we want to do it, and we need the federal government's help.' "
 
L.A. Times story, cont'd

If, as Feinstein says, growth is California's no. 1 problem, the root of that problem is immigration. It would be
better if this were not so, because it sets up an us-versus-them tension that debases everyone within its reach,
but the raw numbers leave little room for debate. Demographic studies after the 2000 census revealed that from
1990 to 2000, immigrants and their children accounted not for just some, or even most, of California's growth.
They accounted for virtually all of it. Of the increase of 4.2 million people during those 10 years, the net gain
generated by the native population was just 90,000, fewer than attend each year's Rose Bowl game.

Immigrants—specifically Latinos, who constitute the majority of the state's more than 9 million
immigrants—inflate the population not just by coming to California but by having children once they're here.
While the combined birthrate for California's U.S. citizens and immigrants who are not Latino has dropped to
replacement level, the birthrate for Latino immigrants from Mexico and Central America averages more than
three children per mother.

Changes in federal policy since 1965 have elevated the number of immigrants legally admitted to the U.S.
annually from a few hundred thousand to more than 1 million in recent years. California has long received far
more immigrants—legal and illegal—than has any other state. This has worked out well in some respects (cheap
labor supply, ethnic diversity, Schwarzenegger), not so well in others (social welfare costs, increasing poverty,
Schwarzenegger). While the costs are significant, the benefits are so vast and varied—from critical high-tech
expertise in Silicon Valley to breathtaking multicultural richness—that anyone but an unrepentant xenophobe
would agree that they are incalculable. None of which alters the fact that immigration, more than any other factor,
will probably determine how crowded and environmentally unsustainable California becomes in the years ahead.

Santa Barbara-based Californians for Population Stabilization (CAPS), the most prominent of several
population-control groups around the state, wants the federal government to crack down on illegal immigration
(various estimates place California's illegal immigrant population at more than 2 million) and reduce the number of
immigrants permitted to legally enter the United States. "We're just sick and tired of the fact that nobody will
address this issue," says CAPS President Diana Hull. "I am simply baffled by the timidity of the politicians on
this."

Earlier this month, President Bush announced his plan to relax U.S. immigration policy. The president said he
wants to create legal status for many of the estimated 8 million to 11 million illegal immigrants who live and work
in the U.S.—a proposal some feel rewards those who have ignored the law and may encourage more illegal
immigration.

And what of the current limits on legal immigration? Asked recently if she is comfortable with those numbers,
Feinstein, who serves on the Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security and Citizenship, hesitated. "Well, I
have to take another look at that before I answer that question," she said. "I don't want to answer it off the top of
my head."

This is a tricky issue for a senator representing a state where more than one in four residents was born outside
the United States.

Immigration directly and indirectly accounts for more than two-thirds of population growth nationwide, but
Feinstein says that trying to stem the ever-rising count is not a topic of discussion in the U.S. Senate. Though the
earth's population doubled to 5 billion in a mere 37 years (1950 to 1987) and will more than double again in this
century, many countries, particularly in Europe, now have low fertility rates, relatively low immigration levels and
are losing population. In sharp contrast, the U.S., at more than 292 million the world's third-most populous
country behind behemoths China and India, will soon glide past 300 million en route to 400 million before
mid-century. In this respect, America stands alone in the developed world. United Nations projections show just
eight countries accounting for half of the planet's population increase between now and 2050. Seven of them
come as no surprise: China, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Ethiopia, Nigeria and the Democratic Republic of
Congo. The other country is the United States, largely because of its generous immigration policies.

California has not prepared itself for what's coming. "I think that we bear a striking resemblance to Edward
Gibbon's description of the last generations of Rome," said state Sen. Tom McClintock, the conservative
Republican rhetorician from Thousand Oaks, not long after he lost his bid last year for the governor's chair. "He
called them 'decent, easy men living from the gifts of the gifts of the founders.' " The problem, he says, began in
the mid 1970s with former Gov. Jerry Brown, who, by McClintock's reckoning, lacked the wisdom of his
predecessors. "It was Earl Warren [governor from 1943 to 1953] who recognized that California was poised for
explosive economic growth and required an infrastructure sufficient to accommodate and make possible that
prosperity," McClintock says.

... [article edited]

Lee Green lives in Ventura. He last wrote for the magazine about the U.S. ban on hemp cultivation.
 
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