Great definition of "Sheepdog"
- Thread starter Cmdr. Gravez0r
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Cmdr. Gravez0r
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I can tell none of you read the article.
Treo
member
Time To Follow My Own Advice
I've done my best to express my misgiving towards the " sheepdog"
mindset, I feel that my statements were well reasoned and well thought out. One of the reasons I continue to participate in threads like this is because it gives me an oppurtunity to clarify my postition on issues like this one in my own mind. I see no need to restate my position at this time, I'll leave that to the internet war heros and the chest thumpers.
I will ,however, leave you W/ this observation about dogs in general
Dogs tend to lick the hand of a bad master as quickly ( some times more quickly) as they will a good. They don't have a lot of discerenement, they'll eat garbage, poop or dead rotten meat and just vomit up what ever doesn't digest ( some times they eat that too)
The U.S. Army uses sheep dogs ( German Shepherd ) as does the Air Force as did the Waffen S.S. at Dachau ( Like I said sheep dogs don't really care who their master is.
The Army used a bunch of sheep dogs in Viet Nam ( historical fact google it) and when they were done using them they abandoned them to the mercy of the enemy.
You want to be a sheep dog knock your self out.
I will refrain from futher participation in this thread
G'Day
Couldn't let this one slide
That's a possibility but I'm going to guess that he joined in 88 and never intended to make it a career. The end of his second enlistment conicided with the Clinton draw down of 95/96. at which time he was told he'd get a $15,000 seperation bonus if he did 3 years in the guard. At the end of that enlistment he was offered $2,500 to re-up ( conicedently he needed $2,500 to put down on his house) for another 3 years. At the end of that enlistment he had 14 years in, was a platoon Sgt. and got begged to re-up for just 6 more years (But he'd have to wait 23 years to collect retirement) and he said " Nope I've got a good job and I don't need it I quit. "
Just a guess
I've done my best to express my misgiving towards the " sheepdog"
mindset, I feel that my statements were well reasoned and well thought out. One of the reasons I continue to participate in threads like this is because it gives me an oppurtunity to clarify my postition on issues like this one in my own mind. I see no need to restate my position at this time, I'll leave that to the internet war heros and the chest thumpers.
I will ,however, leave you W/ this observation about dogs in general
Dogs tend to lick the hand of a bad master as quickly ( some times more quickly) as they will a good. They don't have a lot of discerenement, they'll eat garbage, poop or dead rotten meat and just vomit up what ever doesn't digest ( some times they eat that too)
The U.S. Army uses sheep dogs ( German Shepherd ) as does the Air Force as did the Waffen S.S. at Dachau ( Like I said sheep dogs don't really care who their master is.
The Army used a bunch of sheep dogs in Viet Nam ( historical fact google it) and when they were done using them they abandoned them to the mercy of the enemy.
You want to be a sheep dog knock your self out.
I will refrain from futher participation in this thread
G'Day
Couldn't let this one slide
That's a possibility but I'm going to guess that he joined in 88 and never intended to make it a career. The end of his second enlistment conicided with the Clinton draw down of 95/96. at which time he was told he'd get a $15,000 seperation bonus if he did 3 years in the guard. At the end of that enlistment he was offered $2,500 to re-up ( conicedently he needed $2,500 to put down on his house) for another 3 years. At the end of that enlistment he had 14 years in, was a platoon Sgt. and got begged to re-up for just 6 more years (But he'd have to wait 23 years to collect retirement) and he said " Nope I've got a good job and I don't need it I quit. "
Just a guess
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We all read it, it was under 5 seconds and rather hackneyed. I agree with Treo and the others. The idea of thinking you're a sheepdog, or that you're somehow meant to protect the 'sheep' around you, is a strong indication that you're mentally unfit to be carrying a gun.
Thin Black Line
Member
Other than the pin post from over a year ago and me mentioning it a couple
more times before this thread, I'm fascinated at the amount of barking,
howling, and bleeting this topic can cause on the farm.
more times before this thread, I'm fascinated at the amount of barking,
howling, and bleeting this topic can cause on the farm.
You know, I closed this thread twice before I finally decided to post a reply. This is pointed at no one response, but, rather at the attitude evidenced in the majority of the responses before the thread deteriorated into name calling, etc.
In the majority of responses, I see a principle failing of this society today. Whether you agree with or refute the terminology and/or concept of the "sheep/sheepdog" thing, we as a society have become so self-centered/self-absorbed that we cannot seem to consider helping our fellow man. We simply don't want to be involved in anything that does not directly impact we/us/I/me. I thought the "ME GENERATION" died with the turn of the century and the Pepsi ads.
Example: You, Mr/Mrs. CCW/CHP permit carrier see someone being assaulted and you do nothing??!! I'm not asking that you run over and point your concealed weapon at the "bad guy" though that might well be the best, most appropriate response. Morally, you are responsible for doing something constructive in this situation. At the least, call the cops on your cell phone before you slink away.
Some of you indicate that you would not become involved unless your person or a family member was threatened. How can you walk away and live with yourself and the memory of what occurred in front of you? This is the attitude that is killing this country today. We were a society that at least made an effort to take care of one another in the past.
You don't have to be a "sheepdog", a "warrior", a "hero". You do have to play your role in society and that is not accomplished in your little bubble of "Self".
I leave for NYC in 24 hours. Not the first nor the last trip to that cesspool. The concept that I will be w/o a useable defensive tool for the time I am in transit and there is not a pleasant feeling. To count on the NYPD for help and assistance? Thanks, I would rather do it myself and would like have only that option should the need arise. Clearly I can't count on any of you.
RMD
In the majority of responses, I see a principle failing of this society today. Whether you agree with or refute the terminology and/or concept of the "sheep/sheepdog" thing, we as a society have become so self-centered/self-absorbed that we cannot seem to consider helping our fellow man. We simply don't want to be involved in anything that does not directly impact we/us/I/me. I thought the "ME GENERATION" died with the turn of the century and the Pepsi ads.
Example: You, Mr/Mrs. CCW/CHP permit carrier see someone being assaulted and you do nothing??!! I'm not asking that you run over and point your concealed weapon at the "bad guy" though that might well be the best, most appropriate response. Morally, you are responsible for doing something constructive in this situation. At the least, call the cops on your cell phone before you slink away.
Some of you indicate that you would not become involved unless your person or a family member was threatened. How can you walk away and live with yourself and the memory of what occurred in front of you? This is the attitude that is killing this country today. We were a society that at least made an effort to take care of one another in the past.
You don't have to be a "sheepdog", a "warrior", a "hero". You do have to play your role in society and that is not accomplished in your little bubble of "Self".
I leave for NYC in 24 hours. Not the first nor the last trip to that cesspool. The concept that I will be w/o a useable defensive tool for the time I am in transit and there is not a pleasant feeling. To count on the NYPD for help and assistance? Thanks, I would rather do it myself and would like have only that option should the need arise. Clearly I can't count on any of you.
RMD
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Dravur
Member
Sorry RMD,
But you are on your own. The dirty little secret about this country is that if you stop and help someone else in a situation, you are opening yourself to be crapped on by every shyster lawyer chasing an ambulance.
Now, If I see something going down, I have to make a choice. Call the cops, and hope they handle it or get involved and have the possibility of lawsuits and various other forms of fun tossed in my direction. The possibility of going to jail comes to mind.
The other problem is... you don't know what you don't know. Is the mugging victim actually a bad guy getting taken down by the undercover cop? blah blah, I could make up scenarios all day.
I too, hate the sheepdog mentality. Im not a sheepdog. I dont put on a cape at night, clip on my Cracker Jack CCW badge and go patrolling the streets with a police scanner blasting out the greatest hits of Longmont.
So, if you want to think of yourself as a sheepdog, great, more power to ya. I am a man, who has taken the time to get a CCW and to carry. It is for the time when I have to use it and I hope that time never comes. It is a tool, nothing more.
So, please drop the sheepdog analogy.
But you are on your own. The dirty little secret about this country is that if you stop and help someone else in a situation, you are opening yourself to be crapped on by every shyster lawyer chasing an ambulance.
Now, If I see something going down, I have to make a choice. Call the cops, and hope they handle it or get involved and have the possibility of lawsuits and various other forms of fun tossed in my direction. The possibility of going to jail comes to mind.
The other problem is... you don't know what you don't know. Is the mugging victim actually a bad guy getting taken down by the undercover cop? blah blah, I could make up scenarios all day.
I too, hate the sheepdog mentality. Im not a sheepdog. I dont put on a cape at night, clip on my Cracker Jack CCW badge and go patrolling the streets with a police scanner blasting out the greatest hits of Longmont.
So, if you want to think of yourself as a sheepdog, great, more power to ya. I am a man, who has taken the time to get a CCW and to carry. It is for the time when I have to use it and I hope that time never comes. It is a tool, nothing more.
So, please drop the sheepdog analogy.
Cmdr. Gravez0r,
I read the article and even the book it was taken from. I've read the other works by Col. Grossman as well. His work is important for anyone that deals with violence, but the sheepdog analogy is better applied to those who serve the community in an official capacity. They're job is to protect the community whether as soldier or law enforcement or even fire/rescue. They've taken on this responsibility as their purpose and duty and are required to deal with violence on a daily basis.
Someone who carries a handgun for self defense isn't a "sheepdog" watching over a flock of sheep. If any over-simplified analogy applies, the individual with a CHP is just like your house dog defending itself and it's family. The responsibility is limited to itself, it's "territory" and it's "pack" and not the wider world.
Sheep, sheepdog, wolf are useful analogies when used by Public Safety professionals and the Soldier, but they are all dumbed-down over simplifications when applied to civilians that decide to carry a firearm.
I read the article and even the book it was taken from. I've read the other works by Col. Grossman as well. His work is important for anyone that deals with violence, but the sheepdog analogy is better applied to those who serve the community in an official capacity. They're job is to protect the community whether as soldier or law enforcement or even fire/rescue. They've taken on this responsibility as their purpose and duty and are required to deal with violence on a daily basis.
Someone who carries a handgun for self defense isn't a "sheepdog" watching over a flock of sheep. If any over-simplified analogy applies, the individual with a CHP is just like your house dog defending itself and it's family. The responsibility is limited to itself, it's "territory" and it's "pack" and not the wider world.
Sheep, sheepdog, wolf are useful analogies when used by Public Safety professionals and the Soldier, but they are all dumbed-down over simplifications when applied to civilians that decide to carry a firearm.
I think this is the issue. Carrying a concealed weapon for the purpose of last ditch defense and protection is one thing. Looking for an excuse to use it is something else entirely.
So, I am not a sheepdog, at least not as the article describes it. I suppose I am one of the sheep. A sheep with a gun, but still one of the sheep.
rbernie
Contributing Member
Sad but true. I will say that I do not believe this solely stems from hubris, but often comes from a sincere desire to be useful and helpful and feel NEEDED.
But, as has been pointed out many times in the past on this forums and others - having a weapons permit does not suddently make the holder knowledgeable enough in law and practice to know HOW to be useful.
That is the crux of the matter.
Real sheepdogs get significant blocks of instruction on how to herd the flock, how to appropriately fend off predators, escalation of force, and other such niceties. They probably have a fairly nuanced battery of tools at their disposal, and they are expected to understand the legal circumstances in which each tool could be reasonably deployed. Being a sheepdog is not JUST a mindset - it's a mindset plus VERY significant amounts of training.
A CHL does not give us that training.
My goal is not to be a sheepdog, because that is a full-time vocation. My goal is to be a sheep with teeth.
Treo
member
I know I Said I Wouldn't But...
This is exactly where my mind goes when i hear the term sheepdog
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp2zu9nj3fI
And I invite you to guess who I envision in the roles of Harry and Nikki
This is exactly where my mind goes when i hear the term sheepdog
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp2zu9nj3fI
And I invite you to guess who I envision in the roles of Harry and Nikki
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skipbadger
Member
I am glad I am not a sheepdog or any kind of dog for that matter. If I was, I would never leave the house!!!! 
George Carlin on the topic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVw3JGy7DIA
You may now lock the thread.
George Carlin on the topic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVw3JGy7DIA
You may now lock the thread.
Who raises sheep these days? Most kids are familiar with a sheep dog only in the context of the Warner Brothers cartoons, where Wiley Coyotee takes a break from the roadrunner and tries to steal sheep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jApgOYGQjc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4-iYEE9mDE&feature=related
Calling someone 'sheep' or 'sheeple' is no longer meaningful. Therefore, the sheepdog metaphor is no longer helpful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jApgOYGQjc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4-iYEE9mDE&feature=related
Calling someone 'sheep' or 'sheeple' is no longer meaningful. Therefore, the sheepdog metaphor is no longer helpful.
HKUSP45C
Member
This:
This:
And this:
Are well reasoned responses to the whole "armed populace as sheepdogs" vs those who have chosen a vocation in which they are required and trained to help the general public.
I'm just a man with a gun, it is not my responsibility to be anyones keeper except for my own.
I might cover my girlfriend while she reloads but, that scenario is a little far-fetched.
The sheepdog thing is not only a horrible analogy for CHL it's also a dangerous mindset for your average Joe/Jane.
Sadly, the danger isn't really directed towards the fools with the delusions. The real danger is directed at the poor saps around them who should be very afraid when they whip out their cape and gun and run off to "defend the sheep!"
eircyp said:
This:
hso said:
And this:
rbernie said:
Are well reasoned responses to the whole "armed populace as sheepdogs" vs those who have chosen a vocation in which they are required and trained to help the general public.
I'm just a man with a gun, it is not my responsibility to be anyones keeper except for my own.
I might cover my girlfriend while she reloads but, that scenario is a little far-fetched.
The sheepdog thing is not only a horrible analogy for CHL it's also a dangerous mindset for your average Joe/Jane.
Sadly, the danger isn't really directed towards the fools with the delusions. The real danger is directed at the poor saps around them who should be very afraid when they whip out their cape and gun and run off to "defend the sheep!"
I think the term sheepdog is rather arrogant and misplaced for armed citizens... cops might be sheepdogs in that they generally protect the "herd" as a whole and execute the master's will to keep the sheep under control, occasionally nicking the random sheep to keep them in line.
I'm just a sheep that tends to bite back, with .45cal teeth mind you..
I'm just a sheep that tends to bite back, with .45cal teeth mind you..
Treo
member
All of you sarcastic ridiculers have no idea about service to your fellow MAN!
Thin Black Line
Member
I have no problem adding "house dog" to the mix. Long before I raised my
right hand, I was one of only two people who came to a neighbor's aid in
an apt building who had just been bludgeoned and was screaming for help.
Besides us, none of the other people would come out or even leave their
doorways --including big strong looking young guys. So I guess I was one
of two house dogs (one male one female) among the sheep (both male and
female) until the sheep dogs (the cops) showed up.
bah bah [Someone help me! Someone PLEASE help me]
Bark bark [*** is going on outside my doghouse?!]
bah bah bah bah [We (the rest of the flock) don't want to get involved.
Besides, it's interrupting the game.]
Woof woof [Ok, we can take it from here. BTW, do you have a permit for
those claws?]
Bark Bark [I'm the good loyal upstanding house dog]
Woof Woof [Well we don't know if you're a dog or not until we see a dog license]
Bark Bark [What about the WOLF who just tore into one of the sheep
here and cr@pped all over the yard?]
Woof Woof [That's our problem now. We still need to see your dog tag.]
Bark Bark [Fine here ya go...HEY! My tag is at the OTHER end!]
Woof Woof [Looks like that's in order. Ok, back into your dog house.]
Bark Bark [Yeah yeah...]
DarkSoldier
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2008
- Messages
- 145
Treo,
Thank you for those 14 years of service in Green!
hso and rbernie,
I think your posts pretty much covered my thoughts on the controversy but, speaking as a professional sheepdog, I still respect the heart and the mind set of average citizens who won't be wronged and won't see others be wronged without doing what they can.
Respectfully,
DarkSoldier
Thank you for those 14 years of service in Green!
hso and rbernie,
I think your posts pretty much covered my thoughts on the controversy but, speaking as a professional sheepdog, I still respect the heart and the mind set of average citizens who won't be wronged and won't see others be wronged without doing what they can.
Respectfully,
DarkSoldier
First, let me say that the terms do not matter, sheepdog, sheep, and wolf. I will say that this article is not about CHL's its about the people who react in a certian way. It talks about warriors with weapons, not CHLs. All warriors do not have CHLs and all CHL holders are not Warriors. It talks about mindsets, and reactions. This has been and will continue to be a good resorce for someone who deals with difficult situations. People who have the "sheepdog" mentallity will always have it, with or without a gun. Sheep who follow will follow no matter what. Having a gun does not make you a sheepdog or wolf. All it does is gives you the ablity to react more forcefully. Sometimes sheep step up to be a sheepdog, and sometimes they step down to being a wolf. Simple terms for a difficult analogy.
Thin Black Line
Member
Well said, Graymutt, and appropriate given your name. Welcome.
The Lone Haranguer
Member
At least be a ram among the sheep.
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