Here's Comes The New Firearm Legislation 2015 Version

[dogtown tom]

CoalTrain49 Man, I'm really confused.
You don't do anything for the Fed. Gov't. that could be called work.
Everything you do is for the buyer/transferee.
You don't collect taxes, you just pay them...

Does a drivers license make a cabbie an agent of his state government? After all, the cabbie cannot drive without a commercial drivers license.

Does the federal alcohol tax stamp on a liquor bottle mean a bartender is an agent of the federal government?

Is the clerk at 7-11 or Starbucks a "tax collector"? Whether they charge sales tax as part of the cost of the purchase in no way defines their job as a "tax collector".

While being a licensed dealer does entail abiding by certain recordkeeping requirements so do a number of other occupations..........like a plumber. Since a plumber must be licensed does that make him an "agent" of the State of Texas?

Of course not.

 

[Elkins45]

Man, I'm really confused.

You don't do anything for the Fed. Gov't. that could be called work.

Everything you do is for the buyer/transferee.

You don't collect taxes, you just pay them.


A friend of mine is a dealer/FFL. I'll ask him what he does.

Last.

Last, indeed.

I don't think you are winning this argument.

 

[Red Wind]

New in today, for the 2015 session Florida H4005 would allow open carry of firearms as well as carrying on college or university property

http://amgoa.org/Proposed-Florida-Gu...tate-Law/24918

Something all Floridians should push hard to restore. We lost OC in 1987 .Hopefully ,we can now get it back with a super majority in the state House and the most pro gun Governor in America with Rick Scott, It'll go down to the more moderate Florida Senate.

Carrying on College or University campuses should be a no brainer. But who knows? We shall see.

 

[dc dalton]

New in Today

Ohio HB681 would stop the sale of 'imitation firearms' with some exceptions

http://amgoa.org/Proposed-Ohio-Gun-Law-HB681/State-Law/24921

New Jersey S2613 is the senate version of Shaneen's law giving judges discretion in sentencing case involving the Grave's act

http://amgoa.org/Proposed-New-Jersey-Gun-Law-S2613/State-Law/24922

New for Missouri today:

SB23 would create new crimes for 'failing to stop illegal firearm possession', 'negligent storage of a firearm' and 'failure to notify a school of firearm ownership'

http://amgoa.org/Proposed-Missouri-Gun-Law-SB23/State-Law/24923

HB176 would create a mandatory 3 day waiting period (business days) when purchasing a firearm unless the buyer has a concealed carry permit. Buyers must also watch a gun safety video before taking possession of firearm.

http://amgoa.org/Proposed-Missouri-Gun-Law-HB176/State-Law/24927

HB128 would add language about insurance tort for businesses that prohibit or consent to carrying of concealed firearms

http://amgoa.org/Proposed-Missouri-Gun-Laws

Washington HB1012 would make it illegal for a landlord to "Display a firearm or weapon while communicating with a 16 tenant, a tenant's family member, or guest, or when on the tenant's mobile home lot"

http://amgoa.org/Proposed-Washington-Gun-Law-HB1012/State-Law/24926

 

[MEHavey]

Missouri SB23

"This act requires a parent or guardian to notify a school district, or
the governing body of a private or charter school, that he or she
owns a firearm within 30 days of enrolling the child in school or
becoming the owner of a firearm"

WHAT ?
Has someone lost their collective minds?


For the lawyers: Can this be upheld in court when all the dust settles?

 

[mgkdrgn]

SC will be the most gun friendly state in my mind when they allow reciprocity with GA.

Until then, I don't care what they pass.

Well, now that Jakie is gone, that day will probably come.

 

[OldMac]

Missouri SB23

"This act requires a parent or guardian to notify a school district, or
the governing body of a private or charter school, that he or she
owns a firearm within 30 days of enrolling the child in school or
becoming the owner of a firearm"

WHAT ?
Has someone lost their collective minds?


For the lawyers: Can this be upheld in court when all the dust settles?

They have lost their minds but if it goes thru unchecked, they will have a gun registry. What will they do with all this information? Will it be public information available to anyone that asks? Will they harrass your kid? These people should be removed for suggesting such unamerican garbage.

 

[Styx]

They have lost their minds but if it goes thru unchecked, they will have a gun registry. What will they do with all this information? Will it be public information available to anyone that asks? Will they harrass your kid? These people should be removed for suggesting such unamerican garbage.

Gun registries already exist. Your gun is registered to you whenever you pick one up from your LGS...

 

[USAF_Vet]

Gun registries already exist. Your gun is registered to you whenever you pick one up from your LGS...

not this nonsense again...

epic first post, by the way.

 

[Styx]

not this nonsense again...

epic first post, by the way.

Law enforcement currently has access what gun you purchased as well as the ATF. Whenever a store goes out of business, they have to forward the ATF all of their records... It's a defacto gun registry... How is that nonsense? Unless of course, you live i a state where private sales are legal and you actually purchased all of your firearms via private sale.

 

[Styx]

Missouri SB23

"This act requires a parent or guardian to notify a school district, or
the governing body of a private or charter school, that he or she
owns a firearm within 30 days of enrolling the child in school or
becoming the owner of a firearm"

WHAT ?
Has someone lost their collective minds?


For the lawyers: Can this be upheld in court when all the dust settles?

I doubt that one will won't get that far.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Law enforcement currently has access what gun you purchased as well as the ATF. Whenever a store goes out of business, they have to forward the ATF all of their records... It's a defacto gun registry... How is that nonsense? Unless of course, you live i a state where private sales are legal and you actually purchased all of your firearms via private sale.

Law enforcement does not, in fact have any access to any records of any gun sales without a warrant. The fact that millions of sales records are kept by several thousand licensed firearms dealers means some guns have a paper trail. That paper trail is not a registry. The gun I bought from an LGS last week can be sold today to a private party. End of trail. I suppose, if you wanted to create the least efficient gun registry, the current FFL/ NICS/ 4473 system would be it. ATF doesn't even have a proper registry of the NFA, but yet somehow with a warehouse full of 4473s they have a de facto registry? Come on...

Now, currently, all states allow private sales of firearms. Only a few actually require some sort of permit, universal background check, or registration. So your de facto registry is in fact, nearly 100% useless fantasy. Aside from NFA weapons, all firearms registration is done at the state level. Tracking eve a registered firearm from out of state is nearly impossible. Even in my state, where handguns are registered, if the cops come knocking and I sold it, oh well. Paper trail ends, since the onus is on the buyer, not the seller, to register the gun legally. Too bad so sad.

A basic understanding of how the current system works dispels the myth of backdoor and de facto gun registration.

How an actual, semi efficient registry works, look to your local DMV. Your car has a serial number (VIN) which is stored in a state run database. That vehicle is linked to the last registered owner (as again, the onus of registration is on the buyer, not the seller). A simple entry in a database will bring up the most current information available at a keystroke. There is no national gun registry database that can do this.

 

[Styx]

Law enforcement does not, in fact have any access to any records of any gun sales without a warrant. The fact that millions of sales records are kept by several thousand licensed firearms dealers means some guns have a paper trail. That paper trail is not a registry. The gun I bought from an LGS last week can be sold today to a private party. End of trail. I suppose, if you wanted to create the least efficient gun registry, the current FFL/ NICS/ 4473 system would be it. ATF doesn't even have a proper registry of the NFA, but yet somehow with a warehouse full of 4473s they have a de facto registry? Come on...

Now, currently, all states allow private sales of firearms. Only a few actually require some sort of permit, universal background check, or registration. So your de facto registry is in fact, nearly 100% useless fantasy. Aside from NFA weapons, all firearms registration is done at the state level. Tracking eve a registered firearm from out of state is nearly impossible. Even in my state, where handguns are registered, if the cops come knocking and I sold it, oh well. Paper trail ends, since the onus is on the buyer, not the seller, to register the gun legally. Too bad so sad.

A basic understanding of how the current system works dispels the myth of backdoor and de facto gun registration.

How an actual, semi efficient registry works, look to your local DMV. Your car has a serial number (VIN) which is stored in a state run database. That vehicle is linked to the last registered owner (as again, the onus of registration is on the buyer, not the seller). A simple entry in a database will bring up the most current information available at a keystroke. There is no national gun registry database that can do this.

This is getting off topic, but just like guns, you do not have to register a car. I can sign my car title over to anyone, turn in my plates, and the car becomes their property. End of trail right? Well almost.. Just like with guns, if the car I sold is used in a crime, law enforcement will trace it back to me. It's the same concept as with guns...

Now as to firearms:

reg·is·try noun \ˈre-jə-strē\
: a place where official records are kept

: a book or system for keeping an official list or record of items

Now that we have the definition of a registry, lets look at what the ATF says:

Licensees must maintain records of all firearms receipts and dispositions, including the name, age, and place of residence of purchasers. 18 USC 922(b)(5) and 923(g)(1)(A). Licensed importers and manufacturers are required to identify firearms they import or manufacture by means of a serial number, which must be recorded in licensee records. 18 USC 923(i). Licensees are required to respond immediately to ATF firearms trace requests. 18 USC 923(g)(6). Reports of multiple sales of two or more handguns sold at one time or during any five consecutive business days are also required to be submitted to ATF. 18 USC 923(g)(3). Licensees who discontinue business must deliver their records to ATF. 18 USC 923(g)(4).

These requirements enable ATF to carry out one of the principal purposes of the GCA—to assist State, local, and foreign law enforcement officials in tracing firearms used in crime.

The United States government does not maintain records of licensees’ firearms transactions, other than the previously mentioned out-of-business records, reports of multiple handgun sales, and records of firearms traces. The assimilation of the information from these records provides valuable leads in the identification of illegal gun traffickers and their sources of firearms in the United States.

Anyone who goes through an FFL dealer will have the serial number of all guns they transferred or purchased linked to their name. Yes, law enforcement does not have direct access to that information, but they do still have access when they need it. The whole entire point of the ATF requiring record keeping is so that they have a trail to follow. Not only that, if you buy than one gun in a week, your purchases information and identity goes straight to the ATF. When a FFL holder stops doing business, your firearm purchases and identity goes strange to the ATF. It's a defacto gun registry. Yes, just like with motor vehicles, the private sale loophole may exist, but that does not change the fact that the gun that you purchased from an FFL is basically registered to you. If that gun is used in a crime, they'll come knocking on your door whether you sold the gun or not UNLESS you transferred the gun that's registered to you over to the new owner via FFL gun transfer... If and when they close the private sale loophole, then what? Just because the registry is not centralized nationally does not mean one does not exist. It still exist, but they just have to jump over a few easy hurtles to match a firearm to the last know owner.

We can just agree to disagree on the subject...

 

[USAF_Vet]

So you admit you do not have to register guns. So much for that registry theory.
Private sale loophole? Are you serious?


Anyway, my point is that roughly half of all gun sales are unrecorded private sales. The rest of them that go through an FFL have a paper trail that is unreliable. Try to trace a gun that was sold prior to 1968... Lol. Good luck. The Arisaka type 38 my grandfather brought back from Japan in 1946, handed down until it got into my hands is not part of any registry. Never will be. If it ever gets used in a crime, its untraceable. A limited paper trail does not create a registry that is in any way shape or form reliable.


The 2 hand guns in a week thing, also completely useless. So what if ATF knows I purchased 7 of the same model handgun at the same time? They come knocking, those guns were gifts for my best man and groomsmen at my wedding. End of paper trail. The point of a registry is to have current up to date information. The current system does not and cannot provide that on anything but a draconian state level.

 

[HexHead]

Missouri SB23

"This act requires a parent or guardian to notify a school district, or
the governing body of a private or charter school, that he or she
owns a firearm within 30 days of enrolling the child in school or
becoming the owner of a firearm"

WHAT ?
Has someone lost their collective minds?


For the lawyers: Can this be upheld in court when all the dust settles?

That would be a law just begging to be ignored.

 

[HexHead]

Here's how it works. If the police want to "trace" a gun, they contact the manufacturer with the SN. The manufacturer will tell them who they shipped it to, retailer or distributer. Then they can ask the FFL to search their records for the original purchaser. From there, the trail runs cold. At least in the states that are still part of Free America.

 

[Styx]

So you admit you do not have to register guns. So much for that registry theory.
Private sale loophole? Are you serious?


Anyway, my point is that roughly half of all gun sales are unrecorded private sales. The rest of them that go through an FFL have a paper trail that is unreliable. Try to trace a gun that was sold prior to 1968... Lol. Good luck. The Arisaka type 38 my grandfather brought back from Japan in 1946, handed down until it got into my hands is not part of any registry. Never will be. If it ever gets used in a crime, its untraceable. A limited paper trail does not create a registry that is in any way shape or form reliable.


The 2 hand guns in a week thing, also completely useless. So what if ATF knows I purchased 7 of the same model handgun at the same time? They come knocking, those guns were gifts for my best man and groomsmen at my wedding. End of paper trail. The point of a registry is to have current up to date information. The current system does not and cannot provide that on anything but a draconian state level.

I also admitted you do not have to register a car either, but there's still a registry for cars is there not? Your flawed logic is that because I'm not "required" to register my vehicle, vehicle registration does not exist. Because I can sell my car to someone who can legally sell that same car to someone else without registering it thus making the registration record invalid, that mean vehicle registration does not exist and the car is still not registered in my name. You logic is flawed...

And again, whether the owner of a gun or car sells that gun or car, as far as records go, that car is connected to them via stored records.

Oh and yes, I said "loophole." Being able to sell guns privately is a loophole in there being a more comprehensive registry which is why the anti gunners want to close it.

 

[Styx]

Here's how it works. If the police want to "trace" a gun, they contact the manufacturer with the SN. The manufacturer will tell them who they shipped it to, retailer or distributer. Then they can ask the FFL to search their records for the original purchaser. From there, the trail runs cold. At least in the states that are still part of Free America.

If police want to "trace" a licence plate, they contact DMV too. DMV then looks up the records that they keep to see who the car is registered to as far as their records are concerned. DMV's records may be wrong, or they may be correct, but they still have a registry. The fact that their records can potentially be incorrect does not change that fact.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Until that gun is sold. As I said, any registry that isn't current or even remotely up to date, that only contains a fraction of the existing guns, isn't any sort of registry at all. That's not flawed logic. That's just simple fact. Of all the guns I've bought and sold, I bet any law enforcement agency would have a hard time tracking the gun on my hip, let alone anything else I've owned, bought or sold.

Like HexHead stated, a trace on a gun typically leads to a dead end.

Call it a registry if it makes you feel better, MDA always needs new disinformation, but those of us who know better just think the concept is silly.

 

[Styx]

Until that gun is sold. As I said, any registry that isn't current or even remotely up to date, that only contains a fraction of the existing guns, isn't any sort of registry at all. That's not flawed logic. That's just simple fact. Of all the guns I've bought and sold, I bet any law enforcement agency would have a hard time tracking the gun on my hip, let alone anything else I've owned, bought or sold.

Like HexHead stated, a trace on a gun typically leads to a dead end.

Call it a registry if it makes you feel better, MDA always needs new disinformation, but those of us who know better just think the concept is silly.

Okay then we agree then. There is a registry, but it may not be up to date. Not everyone sells 90% of the new guns they purchased. So even though the records might not be up to date for some, it still is for many others.

"a trace on a gun typically leads to a dead end." Now you're just making stuff up because the ATF statistics prove you wrong. They "trace" guns by referring records that link the gun to an individual who, at least, originally purchased it. Those records are basically a registry, and according to the ATF, they aren't as out of date and useless as you say.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Oh and yes, I said "loophole." Being able to sell guns privately is a loophole in there being a more comprehensive registry which is why the anti gunners want to close it.

No, it isn't a loophole. A loophole is a legal exploit within a law. Selling guns without big brothers approval isn't a loophole. It's legal, plain and simple. In states where there are actual registries in place (more than just 4473s) private sales are limited by law. Just because what is legal in one state may not be legal in another does not make it a loophole, because federally, it makes no difference.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Okay then we agree then. There is a registry, but it may not be up to date. Not everyone sells 90% of the new guns they purchased. So even though the records might not be up to date for some, it still is for many others.

"a trace on a gun typically leads to a dead end." Now you're just making stuff up because the ATF statistics prove you wrong. They "trace" guns by referring records that link the gun to an individual who, at least, originally purchased it. Those records are basically a registry, and according to the ATF, they aren't as out of date and useless as you say.

It's not a registry. It would be against federal law (GCA 68) to maintain a federal gun registry, so we're not agreed on anything. You insist it is, whatever. Maybe that's what you want it to be, using anti buzzwords like 'private sale loophole' makes me wonder what exactly your intentions are here.

I still maintain that without a state level registry it is a near impossibility to trace a gun. Real life isn't like CSI.

A paper trail that may or may not lead to the last owner is pretty useless, and a paper trail doesn't make a registry. And even if a gun I bought and sold was used in a crime and recovered, then traced back to me, then what? Am I a suspect? That's laughable.

 

[Styx]

No, it isn't a loophole. A loophole is a legal exploit within a law. Selling guns without big brothers approval isn't a loophole. It's legal, plain and simple. In states where there are actual registries in place (more than just 4473s) private sales are limited by law. Just because what is legal in one state may not be legal in another does not make it a loophole, because federally, it makes no difference.

In the context of our discussion of the government having access to more a up to date records of who owns what, it's a loophole. In the context of background check, it can possibly be a loophole. I've sold guns via private sale too, but there was no way for me to know whether the person I sold to met all the legal requirements to be able to own a firearm regardless if I required to see a state ID and a ccw permit. The permit could have been revoked, the guy could have just been indited on felony charges, the guy could have a restraining order against him, etc... With all due respect, private sales can potentially be a loop hold for some unqualified people to get around background checks...

Where arguing for no reason. I don't think the FFLs should keep records about what I purchased from them period. The only records they should have is that I passed a background check.

 

[USAF_Vet]

The government has absolutely no business knowing what I buy, own and sell. So in the context of them of them having a record of who owns what, it's still none of their business. The onus for private sales to prohibited persons is clear and concise. Its not a loop hole either. There was no way for you to know, and no reason or need for you to know as long as you met your legal minimum requirements for that sale.

Private sales to bypass a background check for prohibited persons isn't a loophole. Its a crime.

 

[Styx]

It's not a registry. It would be against federal law (GCA 68) to maintain a federal gun registry, so we're not agreed on anything. You insist it is, whatever. Maybe that's what you want it to be, using anti buzzwords like 'private sale loophole' makes me wonder what exactly your intentions are here.

I still maintain that without a state level registry it is a near impossibility to trace a gun. Real life isn't like CSI.

A paper trail that may or may not lead to the last owner is pretty useless, and a paper trail doesn't make a registry. And even if a gun I bought and sold was used in a crime and recovered, then traced back to me, then what? Am I a suspect? That's laughable.

LOL the federal law is not maintaining a registry; they're requiring FFL to do it for them. Just like the government no long maintains records of our cellphone calls, emails, and text messages. They still are mining our data, but they now have a third party hold the information for them. It's all semantics...

So using that same logic, do you agree that vehicle registration does not exist either? I mean, if the trail may or may not lead to the last owner of the vehicle, that must mean that it's impossible for vehicle registration to exist... At least according to your logic...