Here's Comes The New Firearm Legislation 2015 Version

[Styx]

The government has absolutely no business knowing what I buy, own and sell. So in the context of them of them having a record of who owns what, it's still none of their business. The onus for private sales to prohibited persons is clear and concise. Its not a loop hole either. There was no way for you to know, and no reason or need for you to know as long as you met your legal minimum requirements for that sale.

Private sales to bypass a background check for prohibited persons isn't a loophole. Its a crime.

You're having a hard time comprehending. With regards to keeping guns out of the hands of criminals via background checks, private sales are a loophole. I'm not arguing whether or not that loophole is a necessary evil in or not. Yes, "private sales to bypass a background check for prohibited persons" is a crime, but as you just said yourself, theirs no why we can know if the person is prohibited or not. Only that person knows. He also knows that if he goes to a FFL and does a background check, he will fail. So he's going to exploit the fact that we can sell privately w/o doing a background check to get around the law. That's a loophole lol... Whether legal gun owners have to suffer because criminals are trying to get around the law is another argument.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Vehicle registration does exist. But there is a huge difference between a registry in a database, and a record of sale, the where abouts of which may be questionable, if it exists at all. Applying sales/ transfer records of firearms to the same registry as the DMV would be like only registering GM vehicles manufactured and or transferred from 1968.

What's the point or purpose of a registry that may contain only a fraction of guns in the hands of citizens? If you insist on calling it a registry, fine, whatever. Your registry is junk and near useless and is dependent on individual cooperation. Even if law enforcement traced a gun to me, a simple statement of 'I sold it, don't remember to whom' and the trail ends.

 

[USAF_Vet]

You are having a hard time comprehending the fact the a loophole, by definition, is a legal exploit. A crime, by definition, is not a loophole because it is not a legal exploit of the law. Sorry.

Something is either legal, or it isn't. There is no gray area. A prohibited person buying a gun is a crime, not a loophole. He's not getting around the law, he is breaking it.

 

[Styx]

Vehicle registration does exist. But there is a huge difference between a registry in a database, and a record of sale, the where abouts of which may be questionable, if it exists at all.

First off, who says a registry must be in a database. Who even says that FFLs and the ATF do not store there records electronically as well? What's the huge difference, and going through FFLs isn't always a "record of sale" thus the term "gun transfers."

Applying sales/ transfer records of firearms to the same registry as the DMV would be like only registering GM vehicles manufactured and or transferred from 1968.

I agree. So in your example guns manufactured after 1968 would be link to the person who brought it in either the ATF's database or the FFL's.

What's the point or purpose of a registry that may contain only a fraction of guns in the hands of citizens?

Because I'm apart of that fraction of citizens. I still own most of the firearms I purchased at my LGS or from an online retailer. Also, according to law enforcement and the ATF, they are successfully using these records to link guns to the people who owned them.

 

[USAF_Vet]

An example of a loophole is insider trading. Average Joe does it, it's illegal. But Congressman soandso or Senator suchandsuch does it, profits millions, and it's legal. Its an exemption in the law that allows for specific persons or situations to exploit the law in a lawful (albeit unethical) manner, and not break it, where someone else does the exact same thing and goes to federal prison.

 

[Styx]

You are having a hard time comprehending the fact the a loophole, by definition, is a legal exploit. A crime, by definition, is not a loophole because it is not a legal exploit of the law. Sorry.

Something is either legal, or it isn't. There is no gray area. A prohibited person buying a gun is a crime, not a loophole. He's not getting around the law, he is breaking it.

Sigh... The loophole is the criminal exploiting the fact that private sales do not require background checks.

loop·hole noun \ˈlüp-ˌhōl\
: an error in the way a law, rule, or contract is written that makes it possible for some people to legally avoid obeying it

Yes, a felon trying to purchase a weapon is a crime, but he is legally avoiding background checks being that no background checks for private sales is legal; however, it's illegal in the case of FFLs... Get it now?

 

[USAF_Vet]

Ok, whatever. You're right. It's all a massively ineffective registry and loophole is a euphemism for breaking the law.

We should just all surrender liberty and pray at the altar of universal background checks, 100% registration and the eventual abolishment of private ownership of firearms.

I'm sorry I got roped into this asinine discussion. Mods, just please delete all my off topic posts in this thread and remind to stop feeding trolls.

 

[Styx]

Ok, whatever. You're right. It's all a massively ineffective registry and loophole is a euphemism for breaking the law.

We should just all surrender liberty and pray at the altar of universal background checks, 100% registration and the eventual abolishment of private ownership of firearms.

I'm sorry I got roped into this asinine discussion. Mods, just please delete all my off topic posts in this thread and remind to stop feeding trolls.

I wasn't trolling... I made a smart remark that was meant to down FFL keeping records of our purchases. I didn't expect someone to take such offense to it. Have a great day...

 

[CoalTrain49]

Law enforcement does not, in fact have any access to any records of any gun sales without a warrant. The fact that millions of sales records are kept by several thousand licensed firearms dealers means some guns have a paper trail. That paper trail is not a registry.

Not true. ATF has access to those records 24/7. Read the requirements to hold a FFL. They don't need a warrant to access those records and they are a LE agency. They don't even have to come in person, they just call. But mostly they don't even do that unless they can't find it in a state database somewhere. Resource management.

Now, currently, all states allow private sales of firearms. Only a few actually require some sort of permit, universal background check, or registration. So your de facto registry is in fact, nearly 100% useless fantasy. Aside from NFA weapons, all firearms registration is done at the state level. Tracking eve a registered firearm from out of state is nearly impossible. Even in my state, where handguns are registered, if the cops come knocking and I sold it, oh well. Paper trail ends, since the onus is on the buyer, not the seller, to register the gun legally. Too bad so sad.

Why do you believe tracking a firearm from anywhere in the US is impossible? If the info is in a database, which it is here in WA. it can be gathered in a nano second. If I worked for the FBI all I would have to do is query every state database to find a firearm. How long do you think it would take to do that? Do you know how much data the NSA sifts through daily from all types of private electronic communications? Probably about a billion times the amount of data in a 50 state firearms databases.

It's not a registry. It would be against federal law (GCA 68) to maintain a federal gun registry....

That's federal law. Has nothing to do with state law. The fed doesn't maintain the records because it's illegal as you say, but they don't need to because the state does it for them and they have access to those records.

You may live in a state where they don't collect those records, but many states do. Here before this year they only collected pistol SN's, now they collect everything, and I mean everything.

The national trend is toward background checks and most people support those. Most proponents of BC's say they also need gun registration or the BC's aren't effective. They are two separate things but most people can't make the distinction or understand you can actually have one without the other. The NICS is an example of a BC without a registration. State laws vary and are rapidly changing.

 

[dc dalton]

New today:

Oklahoma SB26 would allow any state legislator to carry a firearm anywhere in the state once they have completed a training course and are issued an id card

Oklahoma SB19 would change the 'Bus Safety Act' to allow carrying of weapons for self defense when in compliance with the 'Oklahoma Self Defense Act'

http://amgoa.org/Proposed-Oklahoma-Gun-Laws

Florida S0176 is wold make open and concealed carry legal in a college or university facility

http://amgoa.org/Proposed-Florida-Gun-Law-S0176/State-Law/24938


Kentucky HCR16 would create a 'Gun Safety and Violence Prevention Task Force'

http://amgoa.org/Proposed-Kentucky-Gun-Law-HCR16/State-Law/24941

And once again South Carolina is pumping out firearm related legislation like there's no tomorrow but this time it's not all good:

H3023 Would designate December 15th of each year as 'second amendment awareness day'

H3034 would change law regarding surrendering firearms in cases of domestic violence and stalking

H3043 would make it a crime to leave a firearm where a child under 18 can access it (within reach or easy access)

H3033 is a universal background check that is even worse than the one Washington state just enacted

H3116 would make it illegal to 'knowingly provide to a licensed dealer or private seller of firearms or ammunition materially false information with intent to deceive the dealer or seller about the legality of a transfer of a firearm or ammunition' and 'for a person to knowingly solicit, persuade, encourage or entice a licensed dealer or private seller of firearms or ammunition to transfer a firearm or ammunition under circumstances which the person knows would violate the laws of this State or the United States'

H3115 would strengthen preemption laws

H3119 would strengthen laws and sentencing rules for theft of a firearm

H3025 would change laws for out of state concealed carriers so that any valid out of state permit would be honored

http://amgoa.org/Proposed-South-Carolina-Gun-Laws

 

[dogtown tom]

CoalTrain49 ....Not true. ATF has access to those records 24/7. Read the requirements to hold a FFL. They don't need a warrant to access those records and they are a LE agency. They don't even have to come in person, they just call. But mostly they don't even do that unless they can't find it in a state database somewhere. Resource management.

No, not even close.
ATF doesn't have access to any dealers records "24/7". YOU need to read the ATF regs to understand how and when ATF can access any part of a dealers records. The ONLY times ATF can access a dealers bound book, 4473's or call for such information is:
1. A compliance inspection, held no more than once per year.
2. In the course of a bonafide criminal investigation.
3. A trace request from the ATF National Tracing Center. (the dealer has 24 hours to respond to a trace request)

Whoever told you ATF has 24/7 access is full of beans to put it mildly.

.....If I worked for the FBI all I would have to do is query every state database to find a firearm. How long do you think it would take to do that? Do you know how much data the NSA sifts through daily from all types of private electronic communications? Probably about a billion times the amount of data in a 50 state firearms databases.

Again, no. Not even close. If you think there are "50 state firearms databases" you are terribly mistaken.

You may live in a state where they don't collect those records, but many states do.

Actually very few states maintain any type of firearm registration.

 

[MEHavey]

Breaking information sent to this reporter moments ago via email from a contact in Anchorage,
Alaska indicates that a local gun store has refused to comply with an order from the ATF to turn over
to the agency the official 'Bound Book' that firearms retailers are required to keep on site on customers
and their purchases, photo I.D.s, and background checks.

The store's refusal has provoked a confrontation with the ATF, which claims that the Bound Book is 'their property.'....
http://www.examiner.com/article/breaking-confrontation-between-alaska-gun-store-and-atf

Did this really happen... or was it all hype?

How `bout this...?
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=737291

This?
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9400493#post9400493

Hmmmmm......

 

[dc dalton]

New today:

New Jersey:

S2638 would out law the sale of 'arrowhead ammunition' ... seriously Arrowhead Ammunition?

S2367 would remove the prohibition on possession of stun guns

http://amgoa.org/Proposed-New-Jersey-Gun-Laws

Florida S0180 would allow school boards to designate school saefty officers to carry a concealed weapon

http://amgoa.org/Proposed-Florida-Gun-Law-S0180/State-Law/24955

 

[Red Wind]

New Jersey:

S2638 would out law the sale of 'arrowhead ammunition' ... seriously Arrowhead Ammunition?

It's New Jersey. They're serious.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Breaking information sent to this reporter moments ago via email from a contact in Anchorage,
Alaska indicates that a local gun store has refused to comply with an order from the ATF to turn over
to the agency the official 'Bound Book' that firearms retailers are required to keep on site on customers
and their purchases, photo I.D.s, and background checks.

The store's refusal has provoked a confrontation with the ATF, which claims that the Bound Book is 'their property.'....
http://www.examiner.com/article/brea...-store-and-atf

Did this really happen... or was it all hype?

How `bout this...?
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=737291

This?
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...93#post9400493

Hmmmmm......

I know a dealer who lost his FFL and is out of business. He was the largest dealer within 100 miles of his business. It was 100% related to records violations and ATF records request. I have talked to him several times about it and he told me what happened. Once the ATF suspects that a dealer is in violation of any regulation they have the option to do what they deem necessary to "investigate" that dealer. One thing many people won't accept or refuse to believe is that when a gov't agency goes after you, regardless of what you think they can or can't do, you get to pay the legal fees to defend yourself. Unless you have ever worked for the gov't. it's hard to fathom the resources that they may throw at an individual to accomplish their goal. All one has to do is look at the F&F debacle and the dealers the ATF used illegally in their operation. They coerced the dealers to break the law. None of the agents involved were ever disciplined or lost anything after the investigation.

 

[HOOfan_1]

Just heard on the radio this morning Governor McAwful is trying to get the "one gun a month" law re-instituted in Virginia. It was actually one handgun a month, but the radio didn't say that, although I am sure that is what McAwful is trying.

This is despite all the fact that it was pretty much accepted that the law did absolutely nothing, and that the law has been off the books for at least 2 years now and there has been nothing to indicate it should be re-instituted.

Luckily I don't think there is any way that he would be able to get that through the General Assembly.

Of course McAwful said he supported the Second Amendment, which is a load of horse manure....just like it was a load of horse manure when Obama said the same back in 2008.

He also thinks it is a good idea to revoke carry permits for people behind on child support payments, what the two have to do with each other, only he knows.

 

[Red Wind]

^When Virginia elected him as Gov, it became even more obvious that the Old Dominion was in trouble. Loved by the Clinton's, he is truly awful and despises guns.

My condolences that you ended up with this charlatan.

 

[steelerdude99]

^When Virginia elected him as Gov, it became even more obvious that the Old Dominion was in trouble. Loved by the Clinton's, he is truly awful and despises guns.

My condolences that you ended up with this charlatan.

Red Wind,
The current Virginia governor got into office not his merits, but by more of a scuffle on who was going to control state politics (tea party vs. non tea party Republicans). As a result, neither now attends the governors mansion. Only a few Northern Virginia localities pulled it out for McAuliffe ... late into the election night.

THR readers with an interest in the attempted VA gun-grab; the text below is from a VCDL (Virginia Citizens Defense League) e-mail I receive ; So I can't post a link. VA residents (and visitors) pls. check out their site at http://vcdl.org for more info. To give credit where credit is due, the indented text is from the VCDL (no author name listed). VCDL comments in italics.

Here is what McAuliffe wants passed this coming year (and my comments):

* Prohibit the possession of firearms for people subject to protective orders - Protective orders are pretty much automatic for both parties when a couple files for divorce. Everyone should be disarmed when getting a divorce? Stupid idea.

* Prohibit the possession of firearms for MISDEMEANOR domestic violence and other MISDEMEANOR offenders - Misdemeanors are not meant to take away civil rights.

* Reinstate the one-handgun-a month law - McAuliffe claims this will curtail handgun trafficking, but while the old one-handgun-a-month law was in effect, New York was complaining about all the gun trafficking coming from Virginia! Why would it be any different this time? It wouldn't. Gun trafficking cannot be curtailed, even if McAuliffe says so.

* Revoke concealed handgun permits for parents delinquent on child support payments - Nothing but a naked gun grab. Why not take away someone's drivers license if they're late paying their water bill, too?

* Close the gun show loophole - What loophole? This is really Universal Background Checks, which will lead inevitably to Universal Registration to enforce Universal Background Checks.

* Give Virginia State Police authority to process voluntary background check requests - I'm not sure that having the Virginia State Police run voluntary NICS background checks is allowed under federal law currently.
​

Here's a link to the story:

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/s...cle_9c007c9c-ab01-54fe-b5f1-04bd76d2fb3f.html

chuck

 

[CoalTrain49]

* Give Virginia State Police authority to process voluntary background check requests - I'm not sure that having the Virginia State Police run voluntary NICS background checks is allowed under federal law currently.

Looks like 13 states do their own checks exclusively.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/general-information/participation-map

....and statutorily mandates a background investigation (which is currently being done by all Nevada sheriffs) for CCW permit renewals for the purpose of reinstating the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) exemption for Nevada, thus ensuring that permit holders do not have to go through a point-of-contact check for every firearm purchased, as long as the CCW permit is valid....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Nevada

There also needs to be a state law that regulates how much a FFL/dealer can charge to do a check.

 

[Red Wind]

Red Wind,
The current Virginia governor got into office not his merits, but by more of a scuffle on who was going to control state politics (tea party vs. non tea party Republicans). As a result, neither now attends the governors mansion. Only a few Northern Virginia localities pulled it out for McAuliffe ... late into the election night.

THR readers with an interest in the attempted VA gun-grab; the text below is from a VCDL (Virginia Citizens Defense League) e-mail I receive ; So I can't post a link. VA residents (and visitors) pls. check out their site at http://vcdl.org for more info. To give credit where credit is due, the indented text is from the VCDL (no author name listed). VCDL comments in italics.

Thank you for all that background information, Steeler. Hopefully Terry is a one term passing fancy. But those NOVA areas, Arlington, Alexandria, Fairfax, et alia are a disaster. Can they be reversed? It won't be easy. I have relatives near there in Gainesville.

They are quite distraught. Terry M is as low as you can go in these United States. And to have him as Governor of Virginia?! Nightmare.

 

[silvermane_1]

i don't like VA's S0003, because in some places having a simple verbal disagreement with spouse/gf/bf/"domestic partner"/room mate can result in a DV conviction.

 

[Styx]

* Revoke concealed handgun permits for parents delinquent on child support payments - Nothing but a naked gun grab. Why not take away someone's drivers license if they're late paying their water bill, too?

chuck

I did not know all this was brought up in here before I made a thread of it, but to address the above, in I beleive 33 states out of 50, nonpayment of child support is a felony offense. Fall behind on child support, lose your right to own firearms for life. I'm sure that's where Mcauliffe got this idea from.

I won't be surprised if he attempts to make it that way in VA too as a backdoor way to grab guns. Mark my words... He will sell it on the angle that he's looking out for children, and voters will fall for it hook line and sinker.

In other states, including Texas, many of the 8889 Virginian parents with concealed handgun permits who are currently delinquent on child support payments would already be barred from owning any firearm whether the paid all their arrearages or not.

 

[dc dalton]

New today for Virginia:

HB1390 would prohibit any one other than the legislature to 'adopt or enforce any rule or regulation or any administrative action governing the purchase, possession, transfer, ownership, carrying, storage, or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combinations thereof other than those expressly authorized by statute'

HB1389 would prohibit any college or university from create any 'rule, regulation or policy prohibiting or limiting the carrying of a concealed handgun on property owned or operated by the institution by any person entitled to carry a concealed handgun'

http://amgoa.org/Proposed-Virginia-Gun-Laws

 

[steelerdude99]

Originally Posted by steelerdude99
* Revoke concealed handgun permits for parents delinquent on child support payments - Nothing but a naked gun grab. Why not take away someone's drivers license if they're late paying their water bill, too?

chuck​

I did not know all this was brought up in here before I made a thread of it, but to address the above, in I believe 33 states out of 50, nonpayment of child support is a felony offense. Fall behind on child support, lose your right to own firearms for life. I'm sure that's where Mcauliffe got this idea from.

I won't be surprised if he attempts to make it that way in VA too as a backdoor way to grab guns. Mark my words... He will sell it on the angle that he's looking out for children, and voters will fall for it hook line and sinker.

In other states, including Texas, many of the 8889 Virginian parents with concealed handgun permits who are currently delinquent on child support payments would already be barred from owning any firearm whether the paid all their arrearages or not.

Styx,
Thanks for quoting VCDL's listing of McAuliffe's gun control agenda in a way that makes it look like it was my idea . But anyhow, the link below has a state by state listing of child support delinquency status, felony vs. misdemeanor. In VA, it's a misdemeanor. To treat child support delinquency as a firearm disqualification ... I expect it would require legislation and not a governor's executive order. BTW, child support delinquency for Texas is listed as a "State Jail Felony".

http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/criminal-nonsupport-and-child-support.aspx

The National Conference of State Legislatures is an organization serving state legislators and their staff. ...

We may be best served by using a thread already dedicated to the topic for future posts: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=768765

chuck

PS: Not afraid to admit it, but I learned a new word today: arrearages. That's why I keep a dictionary link on my web toolbar .

 

[Styx]

Styx,
Thanks for quoting VCDL's listing of McAuliffe's gun control agenda in a way that makes it look like it was my idea . But anyhow, the link below has a state by state listing of child support delinquency status, felony vs. misdemeanor. In VA, it's a misdemeanor. To treat child support delinquency as a firearm disqualification ... I expect it would require legislation and not a governor's executive order. BTW, child support delinquency for Texas is listed as a "State Jail Felony".

http://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/criminal-nonsupport-and-child-support.aspx

The National Conference of State Legislatures is an organization serving state legislators and their staff. ...

We may be best served by using a thread already dedicated to the topic for future posts: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=768765

chuck

PS: Not afraid to admit it, but I learned a new word today: arrearages. That's why I keep a dictionary link on my web toolbar .

I'm going to have to join VCDL today. I guess that'll be a xmas present to myself.

Yea, a "State Jail Felony" just means, if I understand correctly, that incarceration must be served in state jail rather than a prison. Most jail sentences over 1 year are normally served in prison. The person would still forever be a felon and barred from owning firearms. I never understood why nonviolent felons would lose their "Right" to own a gun for life.