Hmong/Deer hunter shootings

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CentralTexas

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After reading this account I'm more inclined to believe the accused's version of events.

Survivor testifies about fatal shootings in Sawyer County woods

By Robert Imrie
The Associated Press
Published September 12, 2005, 2:47 PM CDT


HAYWARD, Wis. -- One of two deer hunters who survived a shooting rampage that killed six others in the woods calmly told jurors Monday that a confrontation with a trespasser turned violent after the group threatened to report the man to authorities.

Terry Willers said no one shot at Chai Soua Vang or physically assaulted him before Vang started firing at the group Nov. 21 in some isolated northwestern Wisconsin woods.

The shootings occurred several minutes after Vang, wearing a camouflaged ski mask, told Willers he was sorry for trespassing in a deer stand on private land, Willers testified Monday, the second day of the trial in Sawyer County.

Vang, a 36-year-old Hmong immigrant and truck driver from St. Paul, Minn., is charged with six counts of first-degree murder and three counts of attempted murder. He faces mandatory life in prison if convicted.

Vang's attorney, Steven Kohn, said Vang came under a vicious verbal attack from the hunters who used profanities and racial slurs against him, and Vang felt frightened and under siege. Vang says he acted in self-defense after someone shot at him first.

Willers, whose 27-year-old daughter was killed, disputed that.

Willers testified he found Vang in the tree stand, asked him to leave and then gave him directions to public property.

Vang climbed from the stand and started to leave, Willers said.

As Vang walked away, Willers said he used a radio to call one of the property's owners, Robert Crotteau, at a nearby cabin.

``I radioed into the cabin and said I had a tree rat, and I chased him off the stand,'' Willers testified, indicating Vang was standing about 30 yards away. ``Bob said, 'I want to talk to him.'''

Crotteau drove up with other hunters on two all-terrain vehicles and angrily accused Vang of trespassing, Willers said.

The group unsuccessfully tried to get Vang to show some identification, then flipped over the hunting tag on his back to get his deer license number, said Willers, who traced the number in some dirt on an ATV.

Crotteau hollered to Vang the hunters got his license number and would report him to authorities, Willers testified. Vang was walking down a path when Willers testified he saw him crouch down, set a camouflaged bag on the ground and take the gun off his shoulder.

Willers testified he believed Vang was going to start shooting, so he took his gun from his shoulder and held it in front of him. ``I said, 'Don't you shoot at me, you (expletive)''' he said.

Willers said he took off running and dove to the ground behind a tree. He said he heard a bullet whistle past him, a familiar sound he heard before while hunting. He flipped the safety off his gun and prepared to shoot.

``A split second I felt a burning and felt a ripple through my body. I next thought about moving and I couldn't move,'' Willers said.

``I was thinking this was it.''

Willers, who was to resume testifying Monday afternoon, showed little emotion during the first hour of his testimony.

Willers showed jurors how Vang initially pointed his gun slightly down and away at him, and Willers said he pointed his gun slightly upward.

In other testimony, investigators said they found 14 spent shells in the woods -- 12 the day of the shooting and two more in December. Gerald Kotajarvi of the state crime laboratory testified the shells were of the same caliber of the gun later seized from Vang.

One shell was found within 15 feet of Willers' daughter, Kotajarvi said.

Paul Sogla, a special agent for the state Department of Justice, said gun shells and other evidence near Crotteau's son, Joseph, who was found about 500 feet from where the confrontation occurred, suggest the shooter was standing only 15 to 20 feet away from him at one point.

Kotajarvi said four rounds were found in Terry Willers' gun, which could hold five.

Killed were Robert Crotteau, 42; Joseph Crotteau, 20; Al Laski, 43; Mark Roidt, 28; Jessica Willers, 27; and Dennis Drew, 55, all of the Rice Lake area.

As the murder trial opened Monday, Sawyer County Circuit Judge Norman Yackel agreed to allow two photographers into the courtroom as long as they made less noise and took fewer photos. He imposed the ban on still photographers Saturday after Vang's attorneys complained about the camera noise.
 
Let's see.....he chases down and shoots six folks, some from only 15 feet away.

He has to chase some of them for about 500 feet before finally gunning them down.

Yep, clearly a case of self-defense against a bunch of vicious, racist Wisconsin wackos............

:rolleyes:

hillbilly
 
Wait until the defense plays the "short guy" card - the "little people" defense will always swing a jury. This fellow killed 6 people, and we're supposed to believe it was in self defense? Taurus Feces.
 
.

I'm more inclined to believe his account of their "treatment" of him. Their reports of he snapped for no reason just never range true. It's illegal to kill people that act like jerks in a pack so he clearly did wrong.
CT
 
Hillbilly

You also forgot to mention that he shot some of the hunters in the BACK!!! About us being bunch of vicious, racist Wisconsin wackos. Thats just the lefty's in Madison. The rest of us hate them all equally. I just wonder how many hunters are gonna venture out this year with Kevlar straped on themselves?
 
Or maybe a 6+ on 1.

Things like
The group unsuccessfully tried to get Vang to show some identification, then flipped over the hunting tag on his back to get his deer license number,

make me wonder. He's in a circle of unfriendly types, someone comes up behind him and starts messing with something on his back. Might not make someone feel too comfortable.

Vang was walking down a path when Willers testified he saw him crouch down, set a camouflaged bag on the ground and take the gun off his shoulder. Willers testified he believed Vang was going to start shooting, so he took his gun from his shoulder and held it in front of him. ``I said, 'Don't you shoot at me, you (expletive)''' he said.

For all he knew, the guy could have been stopping to get a drink out of his bag.

I don't know what happened, but the way these guys are quoted, I could go either way. They don't sound like the least belligerent group, and most folks on here would recommend a firearm for defense against a group of 6 or more on one.
 
most folks on here would recommend a firearm for defense against a group of 6 or more on one.

I would hope that most folks on here would have the sense to recommend not chasing unarmed people down and shooting them in the back as part of 'self defense', though.
 
Self defense? Sure. :scrutiny:

How many hunters in the group were armed? One, I believe. If this was a one on one encounter, I could by his story, the other guy shot first. Fine.

This guy chased the other UNARMED folks down and shot some of them in the back. This throws the self defense theory right out the window. No argument here.

I would have took down his license number too. Report him to the DNR for trespassing. That is what it is for (big, black numbers on a flourescent background) easy identification for game wardens and such.

This guy did wrong. Period.

--meathammer
 
I don't know what happened, but the way these guys are quoted, I could go either way.
Yeah, this one is a very unusual situation. It could go either way, but do keep in mind that he was trespassing, which can be a rather serious crime, when the group of hunters found him. I don't know about the Wisconsin laws regarding trespassing, but your presence, without permission, on another's land for the purposes of hunting may end up being a felony. If so, one might believe that the hunters were affecting a citizen's arrest when they confronted him. Also, if the landowner told the hunters to stop the fellow, they may, according to the law, have been acting as an agent of the owner. I know next to nothing about Wisconsin law, and IANAL, but it's something to think about.

There is, however, a slim possibility (and I do believe it is exceptionally slim) that the hunters chasing him off broke the chain, in a legal sense, and then proceeded to assault him by confronting him a second time. Chasing down a fleeing criminal who has not assaulted anyone, destroyed any property, or stolen anything of value might be iffy. Again, IANAL, but it's something to think about.

The whole chasing them down bit, if true, does tend to throw a wrench in the works. We'll have to see how that one comes out.

That Said(tm), if everybody would obtain permission to hunt on others' land, this wouldn't be an issue.
 
I can relate to the hunter. Alone in unfamiliar territory and approached by superior numbers. How many here would be a little "nervous"? If it was purely on this, I'd have to give the Hmong guy the benefit of the doubt.

Now the rest of the story. Guy was poaching (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt again as he could have gotten lost). Asians aren't exactly known for their sense of directions. :evil: (Don't get you panties in a bind, I'm Asian and speak from experience)

Now all doubts are erased when this guy rushes these people and shoots a few that were unarmed and in the back neverless. Basically he freaked and we don't need a person like that in society. Guy should spend some major time behind bars.

Not a win win situation if you ask me. Everyone loses.
 
This guy chased the other UNARMED folks down and shot some of them in the back. This throws the self defense theory right out the window. No argument here.

Yeah, but according to Willers, the fight really jumped off when he made a point of showing his gun. So Vang gets into a gun fight, more of Willers's friends show up, he doesn't know they're not going to want to shoot at him too. After all, he had apologized for being in the wrong place and was leaving when these other guys roll up on him, and at some point Willers threatens him with a gun.

Which sucks for those who came in in the middle of the fight, but I could see how Vang wouldn't think they were there to be his friend and that by the time 7 or more people had run up on him, that they didn't need to be armed to put a hurt on him. At the time it was actually happening, it could be that he felt he was the one being chased down.
 
How many of us here have said "shoot first, ask questions later"....

Guess that's what this guy did. But chasing people down and shooting them in the back....That just doesn't sit right.
 
Regardless of how it started if I was unarmed and saw somebody shoot a member of my family he'd better kill me before I reach the cabin. If I get my hands on a rifle he is a dead man. Guaranteed.
 
Killed 6 people, most unarmed, must be at least one count of murder one there. Give him the benefit of a doubt??? They were not all threatening to him, since he was the only one with a gun most of the time. Fry him or injection marinade him or what ever they do up there. If nothing else, life without parole. :cuss:
 
Let's not forget the past history of this guy either, if you can believe the media police have been out to his place for domestic violence calls at least twice, including one where he put a gun to his wife's head and threatened to kill her.

Kind of makes you rethink exactly how much it would take to set him off.
 
My take on this is that he might be able claim legitimate self-defense for 2 of the killings and one wounding. After that, though, I think he definitely (from what I've read which admittedly may not be the whole truth) crossed the line to cold-blooded murder.

If it were me in a similar situation, and I felt that my life was in danger I would probably fire on the guy that I knew was armed, and any that charged at me. Once I saw the others high-tailing it out of the area I would do the same in the opposite direction and hope to heaven I found my way out of there before they tracked me down. Then I'd be calling the cops ASAP. If nothing else, calling it in yourself (especially if you beat the other side to a phone) gives a lot more credibility to your side of the story.

This guy's mistake was that he chased the unarmed members of the hunting party and shot them in the back. There is no possible way that I see any justification for such action.

Just because someone says "Your mother was a hampster and your father smelt of elderberries" followed by "Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!" does not give one authority to use deadly force. Particularly if you are already in the process of commiting what might be a felony (trespassing while armed and poaching).
 
Wasn't he carrying an SKS with an aftermarket hi-cap mag? I don't know about Wisconsin, but here in CO carrying a rifle with more than 5+1 capacity is a DOW felony. Not to mention that it kind of spells out what exactly he was "hunting". IMO, he should fry.
 
Wasn't he carrying an SKS with an aftermarket hi-cap mag?
Yes it was an SKS, but AFIAK he had the standard fixed 10 round mag. He reloaded.

Not to mention that it kind of spells out what exactly he was "hunting".
He was a licensed deer hunter, in the woods during legal deer hunting season. He claims he was tracking a wounded deer, got lost and got into the tree stand to "rest". I'm not buying that part, but he was, until that incident, an otherwise legit deer hunter.
 
It was widely reported as an SKS rifle at the time of the incident; but the picture I saw showed a Saiga 7.62x39 with a 20rd mag.

Considering that Vang's own account of the incident has him chasing down a man he knew was unarmed and shooting him in the back from 15' away as the man screamed, I'm thinking that testimony is going to be pretty hard on him in court.
 
While I think Vang probably stepped over the line in defending himself, I think he was probably just defending himself.

Were I on that jury I would not convict.

While those people who died probably did not deserve to die, some ????**** in thier group needlessly escalated the sitaution, and as they say ???? happens.
 
Parruthead,
You also forgot to mention that he shot some of the hunters in the BACK!!! About us being bunch of vicious, racist Wisconsin wackos. Thats just the lefty's in Madison. The rest of us hate them all equally. I just wonder how many hunters are gonna venture out this year with Kevlar straped on themselves?

Myself I have never been hunting yet I'd like to someday.

However if I were out in the woods hunting and encountered others I would assume that they too would be armed.

For all Vang knew maybe those other guys were armed and were just trying to get in a good position to open up on him.
 
Holy cow,I can't believe that some people here actually can empathize with that pile of crap. He shot several unarmed people, including a woman, and some of them in the back as they were trying to run away. :fire:

This isn't a special project for the rainbow coalition, this is a mass murderer.


BTW, there is another unsolved murder in that same area where a hunter was found shot to death a few years ago. A vehicle similar to Vang's was reported to be in the vicinity at the time of that shooting. Coincidence? Maybe.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/nov04/279573.asp?format=print
 
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