Hmong/Deer hunter shootings

[MachIVshooter]

Yes it was an SKS, but AFIAK he had the standard fixed 10 round mag. He reloaded.

Still illegal in this state. I know if I encoutered another "hunter" who's identity was completely obscured from view and was carrying an SKS or other rifle not well suited to hunting in this state (I do not consider an SKS a good hunting firearm, regardless of game species), I would immediately question his motives and be very suspicious.

From all accounts published, it sounds to me like he was an angry little man who went in search of a confrontation and exploited it when presented. If you are on private land and are told to identify yourself and leave, you'd better do so. Any ethical hunter will make it a point not to trespass.

I can't understand why anyone here is standing up for this little creep. It is quite obvious that self defense is not a valid argument. Whether or not he "felt" disrespected or "threatened", shooting unarmed people in the back is murder. Period. Too bad there is no death penalty in Wis.

 

[cracked butt]

The rifle used was a Saiga. From accounts I've read, when Vang fiddled with his rifle on the ground a moment before the shooting, he removed the scope from the rifle.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/11/23/hunters.shot/


The trial comes down to a he said- he said, except that one of the hes is a mass murderer.

 

[sumpnz]

MachIV -

Still illegal in this state.

We are talking about Wisconsin, not Colorado. Wisconsin may allow >5 round mags, but I don't know.

I do not consider an SKS a good hunting firearm, regardless of game species

What do you think of a Marlin 336 in .30-30? Not really that much difference in terms of ballistics. Not enough for a deer to notice anyway.

Your last two paragraphs I mostly agree with, at least in terms of sentiment.

 

[cracked butt]

Wisconsin may allow >5 round mags, but I don't know

No magazine limit in Wisconsin for hunting.

 

[SteveS]

You trespass on my land and I'll call you whatever names I dang please

+1...I hate tresspassers.

 

[Big_R]

I've chased trespassers off of my hunting property many times. Each one understand that if I see them there again, I'll report them. I've never turned anyone in because I've never caught anyone a second time. It may be a character flaw, but I give people the benefit of the doubt that just maybe they didn't know where they were.

Bottom line, none of us were there when this all went down. From the media accounts, it seems like the landowners escalated the situation, and Vang committed murder. I believe Vang will definetly go to jail for a long, long time.

Ryan

 

[Charles S]

You trespass on my land and I'll call you whatever names I dang please

+1

I have had a a tresspasser ask me to leave my own land!!

Some people just don't respect others.

Holy cow,I can't believe that some people here actually can empathize with that pile of crap. He shot several unarmed people, including a woman, and some of them in the back as they were trying to run away.

+1

If one courageously confronts a formidable opponent and is ultimately overpowered it is unfortunate....It is far less understandable and certainly less forgivable when one losses a fight he should have won, simply because he carelessly allowed himself to be taken by surprise. John Farnam

One should always be alert around strangers with guns.

Charles

 

[longeyes]

what lies beneath

I'm waiting for Vang's lawyer to bring in "the cultural stuff." Now that should be something to listen to very carefully. I mean the predictable defense that Vang's behavior was excusable in light of the fact that he's from, well, Elsewhere. Maybe he won't get off but his sentence might be mitigated on those grounds. This case is not just about what constitutes murder, it's also about immigration policy and multiculturalism.

 

[sturmruger]

Thoughts from WISCONNY

If I was a betting man I would say that the hunters most likely threw a few racial slurs Vangs way, but part of that has to do with the bad reputation many asian imigrants have in WI and MN. It is widely thought to be a fact that many asain imgrants care little about hunting and fishing regulations. Vang himself has been ticketed for catching well over his limit in pan fish in MN. If I rember correctly he had close to 100 fish in his possesion. I will be the first to admit that I know plenty of good old Wisconsin natives that don't follow many DNR regs here in WI so I don't want anyone to think that Vang and his fellow immigrants are the only ones who don't follow the laws.

Was it the correct thing for the land owners to freak out on Vang? No, they should have handled it in a less confrontational manner. Vang was wrong in so many ways I am sure he will go to prison for a very long time.

 

[silverlance]

hm

to be fair - as to regs and stuff, you wouldn't believe how hard of a time some people have understanding why those things are there. some people just don't get it and feel that they are unreasonable, especially when they get a sizable chunk of their daily bread from breaking them. not that it excuses, it's just that I've met some of these folks.

with that said:

those landowners were certified idiots. you don't round up a posse of six ARMED (and it doesn't matter if only one of them APPEARS to be armed) people to chase down one ARMED tresspasser a SECOND time, get up close and personal (tag flipping) while being overtly hostile, and expect a happy ending. and what was the point of bringing the girl along? so he can show off how much of a hero he is, defending his neck of the woods from the yellow menace? bah. we all know that these guys were boneheads and none of us would be shedding any tears if it were us on the recieving end of their 2nd welcome party and we shot first at someone leveling a gun in a fit of anger.

YET

this hmong guy (and for those of you who know who these people are, they're the ones that often do some really wierd - to us - stuff like kidnap girls that they have a crush on and hold them hostage while they patiently wait for the relatives to come over and fight for her so they can prove their affection - of course i'm sure thats only the exception, but you know what i mean) cannot be excused for continuing on with the fight after the first shots, chasing down folks, because by doing so he becomes the bonehead in the dispute. HE NEEDS TO GO TO JAIL FOR THAT.

UNLESS

they can prove that he DIDN'T chase them down, that they rushed him en masse, or something to that effect that substantiates a claim of continued self defense.

(putting amatuer lawyer hat back on the stand for someone else)

 

[El Tejon]

Well, there it is! It's about immigration policy? So, when White Native Borns are accused of murders that are alleged to occur during hunting should a case be about Murder or about kicking out the White Folks.

Nah, this is a Murder case. Hard to tell what will happen in Problem #2.

Who knows what happened or what will happen. We are only being told "the facts" by the media. What's the media's rep for getting anything correct about any story involving firears?

I am enjoying all the "HE'S GUILTY" posts considering what we usually get in alleged self-defense shootings (e.g., needs more range time, only 6? He'd never be prosecuted in Texas, he would get a medal, inter alia).

 

[Charles S]

I am enjoying all the "HE'S GUILTY" posts considering what we usually get in alleged self-defense shootings (e.g., needs more range time, only 6?

Self defense is not chasing down unarmed people (only one of six had a gun) and shooting people in the back.

He'd never be prosecuted in Texas, he would get a medal, inter alia).

He'd be dead if he tried shooting someone on my hunting lease. If he were confronted by six guys on my lease there would be at least 12 guns in the group. We don't go anywhere unarmed. If you can see six of us there are at least 8 present and if you raised your gun you would be dead before you could pull the trigger.

There are too many outlaws, poachers, drug manufactures, and drug agriculturalists in these parts. One must be careful around strangers with guns, especially if you don't know their intent, or reason for trespassing.

Charles

 

[longeyes]

El Tejon:

Yes, it's about immigration policy, like it or not. My point was that matters of "cultural relativism" are bound to be introduced in Vang's defense judging from what has been the trend in recent years. My view is that we have certain laws in this country and they apply to everyone. No one should get a pass because he's from "elsewhere," that's all.

Is Vang guilty? And of what? We don't know yet. The process will decide.

 

[torpid]

So apparently a lot of the dead folks rushed him unarmed while running backwards?

I guess that would be pretty scary.

.

 

[one-shot-one]

i am supprised

on how many of the texas folks are giving this guy the bennifit of the dout.
but El Tejon your wrong about that texas comment, Charles S: ("He'd be dead if he tried shooting someone on my hunting lease.") got it closer to right.
my $0.02.

 

[Titus]

If you can see six of us there are at least 8 present and if you raised your gun you would be dead before you could pull the trigger.

Uh oh! Ninjas!

 

[Charles S]

Uh oh! Ninjas!

Just country boys...with rifles...

Your welcome to come and play!

Charles

 

[DarthBubba]

Speaking as a Ranch owner and hunting lease manager in central Texas I can tell you that I never respond to a trespasser report from my hunters without back up.
The backup usually consists of my brother or father who rides with me and if we find someone they cover the person in question from a discrete distance and if a gun is raised in a threatening manner the person holding said weapon will be dropped like a bad habit.

I can only hope that O.F.Fascist is only playing devils advocate and does not actually believe that it was ok for this guy to shoot 5 unarmed people because he was breaking the law and got scared. If that is the president set in the wake of this case just think of all of the armed robbery suspects that could get away with killing shop clerks by saying they felt threatened by the clerks.
If it was your point that he should be given a free ride in what should be 6 counts of murder then I think you have been adversely effected by living in the south Texas land of the lawsuit where everyone is a victim far too long.

DarthBubba

 

[cracked butt]

If this is about race and culture, then Vang should be charged with hate crimes as well. Afterall, he is claiming that the incident was about race, and he did kill a group of people of a different race.

those landowners were certified idiots. you don't round up a posse of six ARMED (and it doesn't matter if only one of them APPEARS to be armed) people to chase down one ARMED tresspasser a SECOND time, get up close and personal (tag flipping) while being overtly hostile, and expect a happy ending. and what was the point of bringing the girl along? so he can show off how much of a hero he is, defending his neck of the woods from the yellow menace? bah. we all know that these guys were boneheads and none of us would be shedding any tears if it were us on the recieving end of their 2nd welcome party and we shot first at someone leveling a gun in a fit of anger.

I'll cut you some slack, as they say "you aren't from around here."

The normal procedure if you find tresspassers in Wisconsin is you read the offender the riot act. I've done it myself. Most offenders will leave the land with their tail between their legs because they know they were busted on property that they knew they were not supposed to be on. I can't ever recall anyone being shot over a tresspassing dispute in Wisconsin. Vang changed the dynamics of such a conflict for good. I wouldn't be suprised if landowners don't simply hold tresspassers at gun point until a LEO shows up in the future because of the incident. :banghead:

 

[Charles S]

Speaking as a Ranch owner and hunting lease manager in central Texas I can tell you that I never respond to a trespasser report from my hunters without back up.

My point exactly. You just probably won’t see our backup. We are county boys, woodsman, and hunters. I hardly think that a group of men, starting with the age of 35 and going up through 60 could be called ninja’s. Nevertheless we are careful, and certainly not the most trusting group you will ever run across.

Charles

 

[Titus]

Just country boys...with rifles...

Your welcome to come and play!

I'll take your word for it, Mr. Gates.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

Still illegal in this state.

That would be important if the crime had occurred in your state but it took place in Wisconsin. You can hunt with suppressors in 'Sconny.

As far as immigration policy and the Hmong goes, those are two seperate issues. We did the right thing when we allowed the Hmong refugees into our country. These are people who fought with us and died with us during the Vietnam war. When we bravely turned our tails and fled, we left those people to the wolves. If you ever have the opportunity to meet some of these people, the one who actually fought with us and served years in Communist prison camps and refugee camps, ask them about that experience. When they were lucky enough to get away, offering them refuge was the very least we could do.

Putting down these people and comparing them to illegal immigrants is like spitting on Vietnam war vets and calling them baby rapers.

 

[longeyes]

No one called the Hmong illegal immigrants. No one questioned their bravery or loyalty in Vietnam.

How well the Hmong assimilate in America is something that will be determined, Vang or no Vang. Of course it's a separate issue from Vang's culpability for murder--unless it becomes part of his legal defense or the media swirl around the case. And that was my point.

To believe that issues like "trespassing" don't have cultural aspects seems naive to me.

 

[Cosmoline]

I just wonder how many hunters are gonna venture out this year with Kevlar straped on themselves?

Forget the kevlar--just bring your rifle! I was amazed that out of these "hunters" who got shot ONLY ONE was apparently even carrying a rifle. That kinda destroys the "self defense" theory, but it also raises other questions. What are these people doing in the woods without iron?

The fellow should certainly be put away, but it's also important to remember the rule to never make fun of jumpy Hmong guys in camo carrying SKS's. That's how nature says "do not touch"

 

[benEzra]

I just wonder how many hunters are gonna venture out this year with Kevlar straped on themselves?

Kevlar's no good against a hunting rifle, even a low-powered one like a Saiga. Even Level IIIA is rated for handgun rounds only.

To stop a rifle bullet, you need hard armor, either steel or ceramic, level III minimum. And to stop a high-powered hunting rifle (.300 Mag, whatever), you need level IV. Not much of that on the civilian market.

Of course, if your assailant is armed with a hunting rifle, armor of whatever rating isn't much good since a scoped hunting rifle allows him to place rounds outside the armor, if he means you ill and he has enough time for a shot through the scope. Armed friends as discussed above are a much better safety net, I would expect...