IEDs in the U.S.?

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ravencon

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An interesting POV:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lind/lind115.html
Boomerang Effect

by William S. Lind

Last week, one of my students, a Marine captain, asked whether I had heard a news report about an "IED-like device" supposedly found near Cincinnati, and if I thought we would soon start seeing IEDs here in the U.S. I replied that I had not heard the news story, but as to whether we would see IEDs here at home, the answer is yes.

One of the things U.S. troops are learning in Iraq is how people with little training and few resources can fight a state. Most American troops will see this within the framework of counterinsurgency. But a minority will apply their new-found knowledge in a very different way. After they return to the U.S. and leave the military, they will take what they learned in Iraq back to the inner cities, to the ethnic groups, gangs, and other alternate loyalties they left when they joined the service. There, they will put their new knowledge to work, in wars with each other and wars against the American state. It will not be long before we see police squad cars getting hit with IEDs and other techniques employed by Iraqi insurgents, right here in the streets of American cities.

I know this thought – not to speak of the reality when it happens – will be shocking to some readers. To anyone who really understands Fourth Generation war, it should not be. Fourth Generation war does not merely work on the will of a state’s political leaders, as some theorists have said. It does something far more powerful. It pulls an opposing state apart at the moral level.

We saw this phenomenon in the effect the defeat in Afghanistan had on the Soviet Union. Just as that defeat led to the disintegration of the USSR, so defeat in the current Afghan war will bring the disintegration of NATO. We are seeing 4GW pull Israel apart today, to the point where a leaden blanket of Kulturpessimismus now oppresses that country.

We will see the same thing here, powerfully I think, as a result of our defeat in Iraq. It will manifest itself in many ways, and one of those ways will be the progression of inner-city and gang crime into something close to warfare, including war against the state.

Police will not be surprised by this prediction. I have talked with cops about Fourth Generation war, and they "get it" much better than do American soldiers and Marines. Many have told me that they already recognize elements of war in what they are encountering, especially in inner cities. Cops have been killed while just sitting in their cruisers, because they represent the authority of the state. How big a step is it for those cruisers to get hit with IEDs instead of pistol shots?

The Bush administration, as usual, has it exactly backwards. The danger is not that the "terrorists" we are fighting in Iraq will come here if we pull out there. Rather, American involvement in 4GW in Iraq will create "terrorism" here from among the people we have sent to fight the war there. Well educated in the ways of successful insurgency, they will come home embittered by a lost war, by friends dead and crippled for life to no purpose. Thanks to America’s de-industrialization, they will return to no jobs, or lousy "service" jobs at minimum wage. Angry, frustrated and futureless, some of them will find new identities and loyalties in gangs and criminal enterprises, where they can put their new talents to work.

It will, of course, be only a small minority of returning troops who will go this route. But something else they will have learned from the Iraqi insurgents, along with how to make and deploy IEDs, is that it takes very few people to create and sustain an insurgency.

The boomerang effect is a central element of Fourth Generation war. When a state involves itself in 4GW over there, it lays a basis for 4GW at home. That is true even if it wins over there, and all the more true if it loses, as states usually do. The toxic fallout from America’s 4GW defeats in Iraq and Afghanistan will be far greater than most people expect, and it will fall most heavily on America’s police.

December 6, 2006

William Lind [send him mail] is an analyst based in Washington, DC.

Copyright © 2006 William S. Lind

William Lind Archives
 
Rather, American involvement in 4GW in Iraq will create "terrorism" here from among the people we have sent to fight the war there. Well educated in the ways of successful insurgency, they will come home embittered by a lost war, by friends dead and crippled for life to no purpose. Thanks to America’s de-industrialization, they will return to no jobs, or lousy "service" jobs at minimum wage.

What the hell?! What side are you on? :fire:

I have NEVER heard such disrespectful tripe about American soldiers!

Granted, the VA is messed up, and I expect troops to be messed up by waking up to nightmares every night, some to be in alleys living in cardboard boxes, and that's disgraceful, but they're not going to turn into terrorists!

Focus your suspicion on the MUSLIM EXTREMISTS where it belongs! Where did you find such anti-American trash?! :barf: :barf:
 
I would blowthis off as tin foil hat stuff, had I not already seen official reports of gang graffittii in Bagdahd, known prison/street gangs inside the US military, with no more loyalty to the US than to a sack of garbage. Now, this is a very tiny minority in the service, 99.99% of our troops are the best in the world, and deserving of utmost respect, but yes, even the DoD has agreed there is a gang problem growing in the service, and they are exporting this knowledge to the street.
On the other side, gangbangers in uniform wouldn't have any trouble executing illegal search and seizure missions inside the US, either.
 
If you go to that site and look through the archives of that "William S. Lind", all he seems to have done for years is write articles that p*ss on the flag, give the finger to the armed forces and say how terrible America is, so there you go.
 
What utter FUD.

Ignoring the direct assault on service members (which isn't easy) you've got this:

But something else they will have learned from the Iraqi insurgents, along with how to make and deploy IED

This guy is clueless. Bombs are easy to build. Oh, I'm sorry he's talking about I-E-Ds. Ah yes, not a bomb, a "device". Arg.

I figure even the typical gang member is smart enough to "light fuse and get away". Why is it these bozos talk of IEDs like it takes some kind of genius to detonate explosives?

At the macroscopic level, what evidence does he have for such wars bringing the "terrorism" home? Does he not know of the many terrorist bombings in Vietnam? If his claim is correct, why didn't America tumble into "IED" driven chaos in the 70s?
 
Lind's opinion is hardly offensive. After all, he qualified his statement by writing:

"It will, of course, be only a small minority of returning troops who will go this route."

I have read Lind for years and I have never seen him saying bad things about the flag or "giving the finger" to the armed forces. In fact, Lind and fourth generation warfare theorists are making headway in the military among thoughtful officers, particularly in the Marine Corps. Who knows, Lind might be proven wrong, but don't call him unpatriotic or ignorant just because you disagree with his conclusions. Saying that the military has taken a wrong approach in Iraq or that the suits in the Pentagon have been following outdated strategic theories is not unpatriotic.
 
Fourth Gen war??? what type of stuff is that.

I will tell you this much, lessons are learned on both sides after a war. Just like after Vietnam the US will re-evaluate their roles and strategy, and hopefully learn from their mistakes. The US is still extremely good at fighting a classic battlefront war, but we still stink at fighting insurgents.

Will we see IED in america??? No, the IEDs were used to take out armored vehicles, because for the insurgent getting into a direct firefight with our military was suicide. There is no use for that tactic here in the US.

I agree that you will see an upswing in violent crime, and police will be encountering well trained criminals with some prior combat military experience. You kind of seen that after Vietnam, and some bootleggers and Gangsters of the 20's were ex WWI vets and took advantage of the weapons of the day.

What you may see will be similar to Vietnam, most guys will come back and lead a regular life, some will run with a bad crowd and use their training and experience for bad things, other will have problems re-adjusting from a combat situation and become anti-social and violent. Most vets in vietnam did one year in country. Some Iraq vets did a lot more time in the combat zone, some involuntary. Also thanks to the media and the neo-hippies, the Iraq war will be betrayed as a "bad" war that we lost. That really messed up the Vietnam vets (my dad included). Unfortunately you will see another generation of that.
 
I do see a danger here. We have a lot of troops who have been fighting for a long time. Experts say long enough that there have been organic changes in their brains that will make reintegration with regular society difficult. It's no accident that an inordinately high percentage of our homeless are Vietnam War vets. It's also no accident that the VA and DoD have done everything in their power to deny the problem and sweep it under the rug, denying the very existence of PTSD and disallowing most claims for combat-related counseling.

Returning veterans also have a particularly high unemployment rate. When you combine these there is a potential for increased crime. We already know that gangs and White Supremacist groups are actively putting their members in the military to get training and combat experience. The Army's newly relaxed standards let more bad people in than at any time since parts of the Vietnam War. The combination of well-trained criminals, poor economic prospects, PTSD, lack of services and experience doing serious fighting in urban environments should be a matter of concern to law enforcement and domestic anti-terrorist officials.
 
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We have had IEDs in this country for a long time. People blow up things left and right. Think about the far left elements of the 60s. Nothing real new. What little information you need to know to make effective bombs is readily available, and pretty much always has been to anyone that wants to know. We had people making IEDs during the Revolutionary War.

The troops returning from Viet Nam had up close and personal experience with improvised weapons. It did not turn them into crazed killers.

What will turn them is the lure of money when they get back. They may want the rush they get from combat and once out of the service the way to get that is through crime. I would not expect any substantial number to engage in criminal activities, but a few will. Its just human nature.

OTOH, a lot more of them will return and remain good guys and with first hand knowledge on just how to deal with these problems. Those guys are likely to be the front line home land defense for the coming few decades.
 
Well right now you can get a "waiver" for just about anything to get in the military.:banghead: We have a 42 year old E-1 in are unit right now.:uhoh:

So i could see some Gang member or Muslim Extremists joining for the military for training.
 
Fourth Gen war??? what type of stuff is that.

To get a handle on this vital topic I'd recommend reading:

The Transformation of War (1991) by Martin Van Creveld
The Rise and Decline of the State (1999) by Martin Van Creveld

I'd start with the earlier book.

The author is (or at least was) a professor at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. Besides being a great thinker he is also a good writer.
 
The standards for recruitment have also been dropping to the point where 12 percent of recruits are Cat IV, as opposed to the traditional 2 percent - a SIXFOLD INCREASE.

They have also been forced to accept those with more serious criminal records than ever before.

Gangs have specifically sent members into the Army to learn small unit tactics.

I think that all of these trends are disturbing, and will lead to greater problems at home.
 
Heard this before

I heard the same worries about Vietnam. I think it's overblown.

As far as I can tell there doesn't seem to be an upsurge in police killings. It's still safer than taxi-driving, lumberjacking, or coal mining.

The POLICE however, seem a lot more militarized. Probably multiple causes for that, but MANY current officers have taken a tour through Iraq.
 
Motivations are different

The insurgents in Iraq are fighting a serious war. Their goal is to destroy the infidels and kick us out of their country, and they are serious enough that they don't care if they die in the process. Your typical gangbanger has a MUCH different mentality. He wants to get high, get laid, get rich, etc. The closest thing to a lofty idealogical goal he has is to win the respect of his peers. I just can't see this fellow mounting a concerted, organized insurgency against the state.

Yes, gangs will almost certainly learn new tactics from this war, whether their members serve in the military or not. (Word gets around.) The police will learn more, because there will be a LOT more police who are veterans than gang members who are veterans. (Whether this is a good thing or not is a different discussion!)

Iraq-type insurgency in the U.S.? Not unless the gangs convert to Islam.
 
I was thinking less of IEDs and more of really professional home invasions and gang wars.
 
I do see a danger here. We have a lot of troops who have been fighting for a long time. Experts say long enough that there have been organic changes in their brains that will make reintegration with regular society difficult.

Dude, if you're going to do drugs here, please bring enough to share with the rest of the class.

It's no accident that an inordinately high percentage of our homeless are Vietnam War vets.

When are you people going to get it through your thick effing heads; The stereotype of the shell shocked Vietnam vet that can't fit into society was MANUFACTURED from THIN AIR by Dan Rather in the 1970s. Its just more anti American propaganda bovine scat from the leftist run media!
 
When are you people going to get it through your thick effing heads; The stereotype of the shell shocked Vietnam vet that can't fit into society was MANUFACTURED from THIN AIR by Dan Rather in the 1970s. Its just more anti American propaganda bovine scat from the leftist run media!

And you can expect more of same. When there was a rash of domestic violence/homicides among returning troops, the media focused on issues of combat stress, etc. There were reports about the difficulty of resimiliating to the "real world. No one ever raised the point that some troops had come home from their first long-term deployment to a combat area to find the wife pregnant by someone else, or the spouse shacked up with another person. That tends to make one . . . irritable.

A modern remake of Black Sunday would have a vet fresh from Iraq who decides to kill Americans at the behest of his beautiful Al Queda lover. The scary thing is, I'm almost expecting something like that.
 
Zundfolge, the idea that a disproportionately high percentage of our homeless are Vietnam-era combat veterans wasn't "manufactured out of thin air by Dan Rather". It's widely confirmed and accepted by everyone from the Salvation Army to (reluctantly) the VA.
 
OK..;. Off with my tin foil hat. I too am tired of hearing that crap from the left. For those that wish to be educated read
http://www.stolenvalor.com/



Please do before this generation robs our Iraq vets of their much deserved valor and honor.

BTW suicides, divorce and homelessness no more than any other war.
Hell, I'll even past it here.


In the aftermath of America's debacle in Vietnam, the war was collectively forgotten. Few college courses were offered on the subject, few historians studied it, and even the military avoided the topic as an educational course for its officers.
But Vietnam never left the consciousness of America. Three decades later, it can still ignite passions among its participants.

Slowly, the war has come back to haunt us. Legions of homeless Vietnam veterans are in the street, hundreds of thousands of them are suffering from Agent Orange or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and more of them have died from suicide than died in the war....or so the social advocates and the media tell us.

B.G. Burkett, in over ten years of research in the National Archives, filing hundreds of requests for military documents under the Freedom of Information Act., uncovered a massive distortion of history, a distortion that has cost the U.S. taxpayers billions of dollars. Mr. Burkett's work has toppled national political leaders and put criminals in jail.

The authors show killers who have fooled the most astute prosecutors and gotten away with murder, phony heroes who have become the object of award-winning documentaries on national network television, and liars and fabricators who have flooded major publishing houses with false tales of heroism which have become best-selling biographies.

Not only do Burkett and Whitley show the price of the myth has been enormous for society, but they spotlight how it has severely denigrated the service, patriotism, and gallantry of the best warriors America ever produced.


Now Tin foil hat back on......

signed a Viet Nam vet (productive member of society since returning in 1969)
 
Your typical gangbanger has a MUCH different mentality. He wants to get high, get laid, get rich, etc. The closest thing to a lofty idealogical goal he has is to win the respect of his peers. I just can't see this fellow mounting a concerted, organized insurgency against the state.

If that were true, we wouldn't be calling them "ganbangers". They'd be known as "hippies".

Gangs have always warred with each other for turf. The gang that controls more turf has more opportunities to exploit that turf by selling drugs, committing robberies, etc. Gangs are also thinking internationally. Much of the drug trade and importation is being done by gangs. Since we seem to have ample proof that gang members are getting military training, and experience in hard-core combat, is a small stretch to think that they may want to use that training and experience to further their post-military careers.

Also, it's not uncommon for gang members to put out hits on particularly troublesome cops. I've seen plenty of news stories of little-known gang members walking up to a police cruiser and shooting the officer for no apparent reason. In one case, I actually met the shooter while he was incarcerated. His reason for the shooting was that he wanted other gangbangers to take him seriously.

I can easily see former military gang members using IED's in addition to guns and knives to get things done. You may not consider a car bomb planted by a gangbanger outside a "Citizen's on Patrol" station to be a politically-motivated crime. How would the gangbanger see it?
 
Gang members joining the military to obtain weapons training and develop drug markets has been a known problem for some time, and one the military has been trying to get a handle on. It may not be as prevalent as some have suggested, but it is there and is rather worrisome.
 
fourth gen war is coming here. Indeed, it is coming everywhere. The peace and security we grew up in is going away. Get used to the idea. It will not happen overnight, but in 20 years our society will be so different we would not recognize it. The fact we call ourselves Americans confers no immunity.
Radical Islam has fertile ground to plant in our ghettos. Saudi money is funding extremist Wahabi mosques all over the world, and the US. Our leaders are blind to the threat. Take Nigeria for example- A recent report from a black Nigerian muslim who returned from years living overseas said he was "shocked" at the influence of the radical saudi mosques and thier effect on society-IE sharia law. So what if Nigeria is a big OIL suppier and has a big URANIUM deposit. In the immortal words of Alfred E. Newman "What? Me Worry?!"
 
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