IEDs in the U.S.?

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Sounds like arguments from the Vietnam era. '66 through '69 the US was infested with violent, radical organizations bent on the destruction of the US government. One particular group, Weather Underground, was watched by CID and FBI for very good reasons. WU was developing plans to plant long term bombs at key point in the infrastructure. The idea was to emplace large bombs in places where they would cause maximum damage to the economic infrastructure 5 years out. The plan drove road construction crews nuts. Anything being constructed was considered fair game for and 60's version of an IED. Never happened but that didn't stop fed. gov from worrying and WU from planning.

Will we see IED's in the US? You bet your sweet bippy. Our media is a force multiplier the likes of which does not exist elsewhere. An exploding nut or IED at the Mall of America in Minnesota will kill commerce all over the US. It is just too tempting a tactic to ignore.
 
I heard the same worries about Vietnam. I think it's overblown.

Based on what? The huge upswing in violent and organized crime during the 1970s?

There is, at least, strong correlatory and substantial physical evidence to support these suspicions.
 
Anyone remember Rizzo and Move?

I see the same thing happening if urban gangs increase their activity toward insurgency.

All its gonna take is one incident to throw the bill of rights out the window.

Why does anyone think police agencies have been para-military training their officers for some time now?
 
William S Lind?? The poser who used to pass himself off as a former Marine officer on Paul Weyrich's televison network? The same neocon expert who never humped a ruck or heard a shot fired in anger who pontificates on so called Fourth Generation Warfare from the safety of a think tank? :barf: :barf: :barf:

His theories are responsible for the mess in Iraq, now he wants to tell us about dangers here at home.

To William S Lind, I say shut up! No one wants to hear it. Go out and enlist in the Infantry, join a police department and work the streets. Then come back and we'll talk. :cuss: poser!!!

Jeff
 
From Stars and Stripes
http://stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=42002

Lead paragraphs:

GRAFENWÖHR, Germany — U.S. criminal gangs have gained a foothold in the U.S. military and are using overseas deployments to spread tentacles around the globe, according to the FBI.

FBI gang investigator Jennifer Simon said in an e-mail to Stars and Stripes this week that gang members have been documented on or near U.S. military bases in Germany, Italy, Japan, South Korea and Iraq.


"His theories are responsible for the mess in Iraq, now he wants to tell us about dangers here at home"

Explain please?

Sorry for the formatting, my function buttons aren't working for some reason.
 
Jeff,

You said, "William S Lind?? The poser who used to pass himself off as a former Marine officer on Paul Weyrich's televison network?"

I spent a number of years working in conjunction with a couple of the Marine officers who co-wrote the original article on 4th Generation Warfare with Lind. Neither of them ever mentioned Lind making false claims as to former service. And one of them, COL Gary Wilson, helped me sic "Jug" Burkett on a genuine poser who was working the special operations service schools at the time.


So I'm gonna have to say, Show Me on this one.


Here's some bio info I was able to find online FWIW. As to being a neocon, if anything the man is a paleoconservative.

And if you've read any of his writings and still disagree, please address the theories and analysis he presents and refrain from ad hominem attacks unless you can point out that there are legitimate reasons to do so. Take a look at http://www.d-n-i.net/lind/lind_8_02_05.htm as an example, and see if that in any way fits in with your concept of how we might handle the sort of things that would go on here at home should terrorists begin attacks here.

lpl/nc
======================

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3827/is_200203/ai_n9073949
Conservative spotlight: William S. Lind
Human Events, Mar 4, 2002 by D'Agostino, Joseph A
"Cultural conservatism is the belief that there is a necessary, unbreakable, and causal relationship between traditional Western, JudeoChristian values, definitions of right and wrong, ways of thinking and ways of living-the parameters of Western culture-and the secular success of Western societies: their prosperity, their liberties, and the opportunities they offer their citizens to lead fulfilling rewarding lives. If the former are abandoned, the latter will be lost."

So does the Free Congress Foundation's Center for Cultural Conservatism link the two primary segments of the American conservative movement. The work of center director William S. Lind embodies the necessity, in the post-September 11 world, of connecting cultural conservatism with national security and foreign policy.

Lind, a military expert, co-wrote an article in 1989 on "Fourth-Generation Warfare" predicting exactly what has happened to warfare since the downfall of the Soviet Union. In an interview, Lind described the concept.

"The state loses the monopoly it established on war in the Peace of Westphalia of 1648," he said. He noted that experts have estimated that "the September 11 attack cost the terrorists $500,000 and did $750 billion in damage" when factoring in the worsening of the recession.

"As people transfer their loyalties away from the state," said Lind, "they are giving it to various entities." What is often called Hindu fundamentalism is a growing power in India, for example, and certainly "Islam, our most immediate opponent," claims the first loyalty of many people in many nations, he said.

This new, unstable situation requires a renaissance of traditional Western values, said Lind. "This is a three-sided fight," he said. "There is Islam, chaos, what we can call the fourth generation. There is the Brave New World that leftists are trying to build. And then there are the remnants of Christian civilization."

The fight against the fourth generation of warriors could take two forms, Lind said. "One is the police state, which is the way we seem to be going," he said. "The other is the universal militia, such as in Switzerland. Every male Swiss has his rifle."

One way of defusing potential terrorists at home is re-establishing "an open political system," again a feature of Switzerland, a diverse, highly decentralized, but still harmonious country. Here, "if elected representatives do something they don't like, a judge overturns the votes of millions of people," Lind said. "America has a closed political system."

Though he said that "the most dangerous form of fourth-generation warfare is the home-grown kind," Lind cautioned that contrary to emanations from the Bush White House, Western and westernized people should not underestimate the implacability of our culturally foreign foe of Islam. "Our most dangerous enemy is also our oldest enemy, Islam," he said.

"Islam is a religion of war. There is no peaceful Islam, only lax Muslims."

In a recent article posted on Free Congress' website, Lind-who lectures around the world on military strategy-recommends some major changes to the American military. "Unlike virtually every other military in the world," he writes, ."we rotate our people, officers and enlisted, at a dizzying rate. An officer is lucky to hold one job for two years; often, military families have faced as many moves as they have had years in service. The effect is to make every position an endless amateur act.... Worse, our various staff schools and war colleges don't teach war, they teach process. Because people are moved around constantly and are regarded as interchangeable, the only way the system can function at all is by reducing everything to standardized processes."

Lind, a graduate of Dartmouth and holder of an MA in European history from Princeton, worked for Democratic Sen. Gary Hart from 1977 to 1986. "Hart knew I was conservative when he hired me. . .," Lind said. "He was actually interested in governing the country. If the American people ever found this out, George III would be back by popular demand. At the outside, 10% of Congress is interested in governance."

The pipe-smoking Lind said that conservatives should label liberals "cultural Marxists. What we call political correctness or multiculturalism is actually Marxism translated from the economic into the cultural sphere.... The people who created it called themselves Marxists. The Frankfurt School created cultural Marxism by crossing Marx and Freud." Free Congress sells a collection of six essays and a video documentary on the Frankfurt School.

The solution? "We must create our own institutions, a parallel society," said Lind. "It's the most effective form of Counter-Revolution, as the Church did when the Roman Empire collapsed. But we should stay involved in politics, to protect ourselves."

Lind may be reached at the Free Congress Foundation, 717 Second St. NE., Washington, D.C. 20002 (202-546-3000; fax: 202-543-5605; website: www.freecongress.org).

Copyright Human Events Publishing, Inc. Mar 4, 2002
 
Ye gawds. The thing I like most about this guy (Lind) is the suave grace with which he wipes the foam from his lips.
 
Okay, since I'm just some hated whacko libertarian, I'll post my take on his theories.

With regards to the organization he's working for/with, they claim to:

...promotes cultural conservatism, and works against the government encroachment of individual liberties.

one of his colleagues at the "Free Congress Foundation" states:

The next conservative movement is perhaps best thought of as a community, one devoted to the old conservative virtues of modest living, hard work, prudence (which includes not running after every new thing), thrift, conservation, and living God-centered rather than man-centered lives. If we want to restore our old culture, we have to live by its rules.

Without trying to derail the thread, my concern would be that Lind's 4GW militia solution to the IED in the USA threat would be based on their "old culture", you know the one that didn't want women to vote and made sure the darkies are kept in their place.

If perhaps there was info that the Free Congress Foundation folks would believe in "liberty and justice for all" and not "liberty and justice for all of us" then maybe, just maybe...

...but right now he does sound like a "paleoconservative", and a rather paranoid one at that.
 
"Unlike virtually every other military in the world," he writes, ."we rotate our people, officers and enlisted, at a dizzying rate. ... The effect is to make every position an endless amateur act....

Compared to all the conscript armies across the world, where the random schmucks who couldn't dodge "jury duty +P" spend 18-24 months in service?


The standard American volunteer contract is four years, which is far more than the min obligation in almost any country. No idea on other countries' volunteer obligations, but I bet their baseline is four years or less for enlistees.


@tellner: thought you'd drop by for this one! Can't linger, got term paper on Modernist Persian Poetry to write. Tends to involve young men trying to get laid; the culture gap between East and West is indeed immense...

-MV
 
4th generation warware is not a new concept and is well documented.
My rub is believing that our returning vets are going to join gangs in mass or that gangs are sending their own to the military for training. I seriously doubt that and if I were in power in the government I would be more worried about leading us down the road to a police state inciting violence than a few gang members.

Not all people agree that 4 generation warfare is direct threat.
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/awc-futr.htm#4gw

read FOURTH-GENERATION WAR AND OTHER MYTHS
 
This thread reads, "Like a modern chapter out of the Turner Diaries"

My $0.02.

When I read that the article was co-written by Officers..."rolling my eyes", Officers have no since of reality, they're just a bunch of puppet dolls. Boots on the deck, and relaxed ROE win wars.

There are few US Service Personel that are going to be able to construct an appropriate IED from thier military training. Occupational Fields such as; Ammo Tech, Combat Engineer, Assult Man, EOD and a few other misc areas will be given the hands on training with explosives... We aren't all trained Killers.

As far as Gangs go in the Military... if you've served you know it is a highly cultural experiance, (Except for the Infantry, about 70% of infantry men are white, not much culture there) it's not just the Crips and the Bloods, there are former KKK and Neo-Nazi children around here too. Most leave it behind, a few jokes, and drunken talk. Most joined the Armed Service to leave something behind and make a better life, they aren't going to be planting IED's on the nations highways... But if Canada Invades, they'll be hit with a resistance.
-FWIW: few could leave the military and cause much damage training others.

Currently I'm the NCOIC of a Marksmanship Training Unit & Combat Marksmanship Program Chief, Trained Breacher & Assult Man, Explosive Handler of Ordance Trainer, Engineer by Trade, I am one of a few that could actually sit down and instruct, on tactics, explosives and weapons with success, after formal schooling and giveing instruction on a routine basis.

The American People don't need to worry about US Service Personel, running around killing American Citizens, although it happens from time to time. Less than 1% of the American Population is Active Duty Military, and only 10% of the American Population has served, I'll take a guess that 0.005% of those who have Served will go out to commite sevear criminial acts. I feel pretty safe with that.

The difference between Iraq and Viet Nam Vet's... there's alot of Viet Nam vets takeing care of us young guys, and I thank them very much. Viet Nam veterans were spit on, p*$$'d on and shunned, not the Iraq Vets, even the "anti-war" people stay away from us. Those funeral protesters have been taken care of by Bikers, and there are people that don't support the war, but support the men and women involved, because they know we don't have much of a choice and this is the life we chose. PTSD, Survivor Syndrome and many others are addressed. You know what the best cure for PTSD is, Killing more bad guys... The US has the finest Military, and we joke about how crappy our heath care and benifits are, we're taken care of.
 
I think Lind has overblown the domestic IED issue.

There have always been IED's deployed on our soil and there likely always will. Kids blowing up mailboxes, mafia blowing up an adverseries car, the Unabomber, the guy who bombed the Altanta Olympics, etc. You don't need military training or experience to build and IED. You just need to buy the right books.

From what I know about gangs, and I don't claim to be any expert, I can't see gangbangers getting jiggy with the IED. If your a banger, you want cred. Blowing something up and then claiming you did it probably won't give much cred. Shooting a cop or an opposing gang member, and having plenty of witnesses to the shooting, gets you way more cred.

Just my take on the whole thing.
 
I mostly agree with go_bang's oddly self referential post (that's a joke for all you type A's out there), but I have to disagree with the comment that gangs won't use IEDs for lack of "cred" associated with hiding and setting off a bomb. The problem with that is there's more than one way to frag things. IEDs don't have to be huge anti-tank devices, they can be simple hand grenades.

It seems to me that gangs don't use explosives because they really don't use weapons that often. Posing with a pipe isn't as cool as posing with a MAC. I could be wrong on that, I don't have information to back it up, just a thought.
 
It's well know in the US military that gangs keep certain members out of truoble enough that they can join the reserve component or the active Army, gain weapons and explosives training, and return to the gang. I've known several troublemakers who admitted that was why they were there.

Usually they get in trouble and get kicked out, which is fine by them because they already have what the came for.
 
Lee,
Lind used to host two television shows on Weyrich's National Empowerment Television Network. One was called Modern War in which he gave is expert and say that with as much venom as I can muster, because the man never served, opinions on defense matters. He made offhand references on the show all the time about his time with the Marines. I may even have some of those episodes on videotape. It was only later when I began reading some of the material on fourth generation war and asked some Marine friends about Lind did I find out he never served. His time with the Marines was spent as an observer. I watched the shows. It was part of my DISH Network satellite package back then.

My problem with fourth generation warfare is that it's proponents think that the principles of war have somehow changed. They haven't. It's the fourth generation warfare proponents that got Rumsfeld's ear and started us down the road to the mess we are in in Iraq.

The paper posted here about IEDs in the US could have come right from the script of Lind's other NET show Next Revolution. In that show Lind and Weyrich sat in comfortable chairs and pontificated about how things in the news and social change was bring on the .....Next Revolution. I might have a an episode or two of that show on tape. They had real nice opening graphics of riots and buildings being blown up, maps and headlines about states seceeding from the union, looked about like some of the threads we used to have in S&T.

There are no such things as generations of warfare. War is still war and the principles remain the same. TTPs change to accomodate technology. We forgot that in our quest to remain relevant to American society after the end of the Cold War.

The sad fact was the military was even more relevant after the collapse of the Soviet Union because the world became a much more dangerous place. Now we are involved in a fight for our way of life that is every bit as important as WWII, and we are a mere shadow of what we were in 1989. I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the fourth generation warfare proponents who sold the politician this bill of goods that war really isn't war anymore.

Jeff
 
True story illustrating gang members in the Marine Corps...

In '96 I was assigned to a Marine helo squadron at Camp Pendleton.

One afternoon all of the Marines from the next hanger came streaming out into the parking lot. My office window was open and I could hear Marines shouting that somebody had shot the CO/XO.

MP's arrived and entered the hanger of Marine Aviation Logistics Squadron 39. They found an armed Marine Sergeant hiding in a tool room and the CO and XO both shot twice in the chest in their offices. The XO died, the CO pulled through.

The investigation revealed that this Sgt (6 yrs of service with a wife and kid) was an active gang member of an LA street gang since prior to his entry into the Marine Corps. He was ordered by the gang to kill the XO because in a former assignment the XO had signed a confinement order on another Marine who was also a member of the gang for drug trafficing. The Sgt stated that he shot the CO as well simply because he didn't like him, and he could only get the death penalty once.

This was a gang hit aboard an active duty Marine Corps Base in reprisal for a Marine Officer doing his duty.
 
ba_ceres_group.jpg


From The San Francisco Chronicle ariticle
The Marine who fatally shot a Ceres police officer and wounded another last week was a Norteño gang member who was high on cocaine at the time and carrying a gangsta rap CD about killing, police said.

Investigators now are discounting the theory that Lance Cpl. Andres Raya, 19, may have been suffering from post-traumatic stress and instigated a "suicide by cop" -- provoking officers to shoot him -- because he did not want to return to Iraq.

"He had a predisposition to gangs and violence before he went into the military," Stanislaus County Sheriff's spokesman Deputy Jason Woodman said Saturday. "During our investigation, we found he wasn't due to go back to Iraq, never faced combat situations and never even fired his gun."

Raya shot and killed Ceres police Sgt. Howard "Howie" Stevenson and wounded Officer Sam Ryno with a semiautomatic rifle outside a Ceres liquor store Sunday night before police returned fire and killed him.

The incident began when Raya walked into the liquor store, made odd statements and asked the clerk suspicious questions, authorities said. Raya walked out of the shop and fired off a couple of rounds from his rifle, then went back into the store and told the clerk to call police because he had been shot.

Ryno and Stevenson then arrived.

Raya had reportedly bragged to fellow Marines that he had bought the SKS assault rifle because its bullets could pierce police body armor, and that one of his "boys" was holding it for him, police said.

Raya's family and friends -- who deny his gang involvement -- said he had been changed by the seven months he spent in Iraq, returning in September to Camp Pendleton in San Diego. He became withdrawn and unable to hold a conversation, and told them gruesome stories of house-to-house combat and watching Marines commit suicide. He questioned the war and said he did not want to go back.

But Woodman said the sheriff's department's investigation, in conjunction with the military and other agencies, found that Raya's motor transport unit had not seen combat, though Raya was in a convoy in which a Marine in another vehicle was injured in an explosion. Raya did not seek counseling when he returned home, and had recently been transferred to a unit scheduled to be deployed to Okinawa.

The investigation also uncovered ties to the Norteño gang, Woodman said, including a videotape and a safe in Raya's room containing a book by a member of the prison gang Nuestra Familia and numerous pictures of Raya wearing the gang's signature color red and making gang signs with his hands.

The safe also contained a "shopping list" for items including black clothing, body armor, assault rifles and ammunition.

"Based on the shopping list and the statements he made, it certainly seems like he had the intention and the desire to injure or kill police officers," Woodman said.

The video is of a Dec. 28 break-in of Ceres High School in which vandals including Raya smashed computers and other equipment, ripped up an American flag and spelled out "F -- Bush," Woodman said. The camera had been left behind at the school, but it wasn't until after the shooting that investigators got a tip to view the tape.

It also shows Raya and friends smoking marijuana, making gang signs and showing off gang graffiti. Raya refers to his gang involvement starting when he was a freshman, and pictures in the safe from 2000 show him using gang signs, Woodman said.

"It's very evident his gang affiliation started long before he joined the military," he said.

While Raya had a minor criminal record as a juvenile, police had not identified him as a gang member.

Raya's family and friends denied that he was a gang member but said he may have known people who were.

"They have to say something bad. They can't say something good because he killed one of their partners," Raya's uncle, Nicholas Cortez of Modesto, said of the police. "I'm not saying he was a saint, but he did go to the armed forces and got some medals for it."

"The military trained him to kill. Let's say he didn't see combat, but he was there," Cortez said. He said "stress from the service" is the only explanation for Raya's actions.

An autopsy showed Raya had a "significant amount" of cocaine in his system, Woodman said. In the pocket of Raya's poncho, police also found the CD "Season of Da Siccness," containing numerous references to death including the songs "Dead Man" and "Welcome to Your Own Death."

Woodman said investigators may never know what motivated Raya to open fire on police, but he said they consider suicide by cop and post-traumatic stress "less and less likely."

Denver Mills, director of the Concord VA Vet Center, said post-traumatic stress "typically doesn't result in lethal behavior like this." But he said it's impossible to say what affect the war had on Raya, even if he wasn't in combat.

"The difficulty," said Woodman, "is you have a guy who killed a cop, and the only one who seemed to know why was him."
 
"IED at the Mall of America in Minnesota will kill commerce all over the US"
Impossible. Gecko45 will stop them with an expertly-executed triple-tap from his 'Special Weapons' MP5-copy.
 
Granted, the VA is messed up, and I expect troops to be messed up by waking up to nightmares every night, some to be in alleys living in cardboard boxes, and that's disgraceful, but they're not going to turn into terrorists!

Gee, I guess someone should've told Tim McVeigh that a few years back. 168 people died because you waited so long to speak up.
 
Jeff,

But did the man flat out claim service time with the USMC? Or did he just say 'with?'

You're obviously entitled to your opinions on the concept of 4GW, and I am not interested in starting a running argument with someone else who doesn't believe there is such a thing. But if Bill Lind made public, televised claims to uniformed service with the USMC, I want to know about it. I never heard of such a thing when I was working on open source intel and related ideas with "G.I." Wilson, that would have been in the mid-1990s. Did it happen later than that?

And BTW, just how are those of us who worked for military organizations without being in uniform (they call it Civil Service, as opposed to Military Service, and we swear the same oath) to refer to our time there, if not indirectly? Am I not supposed to say I worked "with" Special Forces, Psychological Operations and Civil Affairs soldiers during the 13 years I worked at USAJFKSWCS?

lpl/nc
 
I think that the war in the middle east is going to have some effects... I think we're going to see returning soldiers who become cops with VERY itchy trigger fingers, whose idea of serving a traffic ticket warrant involves throwing something through the window before unloading on the room...

I think that, yes, we'll see more advanced use of weaponry among gangs. Why? A LOT Of training for some of their members, and those members, if they're intelligent at all, will train the others. 15 years ago in St. Louis, street gangs would walk turf patrols - and they paid attention to detail - point man, leader, telecommunications, and weapons nearby...

I don't think that the indicted OK city bombers did it on their own.
 
Lee,
Lind's words had me convinced he had been a serving Marine. This would have been around 97 or so.

I'll send you a PM.

Jeff
 
McVeigh managed to plant a pretty darn big IED and he was but a lowly gulf war I vet. Why wasn't this talked about before this war? Or was it? I attribute his actions to a messed up personality that existed long before the military.

If the sky was falling as suggested there would be an IED around every corner thanks to the vietnam vets. They are surely a lot more disgruntled and I dare say, probably better versed in guerilla tactics. Most of them turned out perfectly fine... in fact, the vast majority did. You walk by them every day on the street. They helped build what we have today.

I'm not buying it, personally. I think the vets we have back or that will be coming back soon are going to turn this country around... in a good way. We have right here an entire generation of kids that fought to bring about a democracy... it may or may not work, but I think they believe in it and I think the public at large supports them... which wasn't the case in Vietnam. I'm optimistic. I think it's a good thing. I'm not war vet, but I am a vet... so I do have some frame of reference. These are good kids and they are not going to bring about a revolution by blowing their fellow citizens up... or becoming bad cops. I have faith.
 
In reference to the Norteno Marine, LCpl Raya, here's the video footage:


WARNING, GRAPHIC FOOTAGE OF SHOOTING DEATHS, PROVIDED FOR INSTRUCTIONAL PURPOSES

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=marine+raya&search=Search


One of the guys in my battery knew Raya's platoon commander, so we all watched the videos when they first came out on the Modesto Bee website. Pretty interesting, albeit gruesome, stuff.

-MV
 
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