Irate man in doctors office.

[uspJ]

I took my grandmother to physical therapy the other day. While we were sitting in the waiting room a man came in for his appointment and started filling out his paperwork. While filling out his paperwork he was told by the receptionist that he would not be able to be seen since he had not brought some paperwork earlier in the week that was required by his insurance. The guy becomes completely irate and throws the clipboard at the receptionist barely missing her head and storms out to his truck.

From where I was sitting I could see all the cars in the parking lot, I see the guy jump in his truck and shut the door preparing to leave. Then he jumps out of the truck and comes storming back inside and continues to scream and make threats to the receptionist. This time I notice a bulge in his pants pocket and I start to get a really bad feeling. I told my grandmother we need to leave but she refused and was called back as the guy was leaving for the second time.

I start to relax after a few minutes untill I see the guy's truck pull up haphazardly in the parking lot and he gets out with the engine running and the door left open as he was making his way inside. I'm full condition orange at this moment and I get up and step to the open bathroom before he gets in. I was carrying my 4in 1911 and had my hand on my weapon and the safety swept off as he made his way inside. I left the door open and could see him clearly.

When he gets inside he acts like a completely different person and is appologizing for his behavior. He asks if he could speak to the receptionist that he had thrown the clipboard at but she refused to come out and speak to him. He repeatedly apologizes and asks if he can apologize to the woman when she tells him in a non High Road fashion from another room that she has nothing to say to him and that she wants him to leave the office. The man begins to get irate again and then pauses and apologizes and leaves for the final time.

After he left I went to the receptionist and told her that it may be a good idea for them to report what happened to the police in case he comes back. Both the clerks seem to chuckle at the suggestion, the clerk who cussed the man out was confident that he would not return after the scolding she had given him. By this time my grandmother was done with her appointment and we left.

So, do you guys think I could have done differently in this situation. Should I have called the police myself? Should I have continued to try to get my grandmother to leave when things started to escalate. Any feedback would be appreciated.

 

[docnyt]

Getting out of a potentially dangerous situation is always a good idea. If you can avoid a fight, why not?

Calling the cops is not a bad idea but will likely need input from those affected, i.e. The receptionist, especially if they are going to press charges.

 

[czarjl]

“…had my hand on my weapon and the safety swept off…”

If you’re doing that, then I would say calling the cops is not unreasonable.

He had a temper tantrum… left then came then came back in form the parking lot… another outburst (at this point I would have called the cops)… then left and came back a few minutes latter and parked “haphazardly” that last time would have had me very worried. People who are acting this way are nether rational nor predictable and in my opinion dangerous.
I would not intervene in this situation unless forced (to stop a clear threat). I would have done about the same as you but I would have called the police. It is absolutely not acceptable to act this way for a grown adult and sometime people need to be remained that their action are not acceptable and down right scary to the people around them.
If you’re doing that, then I would say calling the cops is not unreasonable.

He had a temper tantrum… left then came then came back in form the parking lot… another outburst (at this point I would have called the cops)… then left and came back a few minutes latter and parked “haphazardly” that last time would have had me very worried. People who are acting this way are nether rational nor predictable and in my opinion dangerous.
I would not intervene in this situation unless forced (to stop a clear threat). I would have done about the same as you but I would have called the police. It is absolutely not acceptable to act this way for a grown adult and sometime people need to be remained that their action are not acceptable and down right scary to the people around them.

 

[thunder173]

IMO the receptionist should have called 911 and gotten a cop when the guy came back in. Your moving to a postion to take action was a smart move. Too many folks would sit there and wonder what to do. Had that bulge turned into a gun, you would have been in position to intervene, and with a 4 inch 1911, you would have had the right tool to do so.

Some may question that logic,...but if I were in that same situation,..armed,..I would hope I would have done the same,..and that I would have been willing to intervene should that situation deteriorate further into an armed and violent attack.

At least moving into and being in a position to be observant, and to be able to glean details of the incident would make you a good witness. The fact that you moved to a good position and prepared yourself to act if need be,..means you'd have likely been a LIVE witness had that situation gone south.

Just MY take,..but good on ya. Others may have a different view...their choice....

 

[EmbarkChief]

That guy was waving some big red flags in my opinion. I don't think you over reacted at all, I probably would have kept the safety on but I wasn't there so I'm not one to judge. Obviously if he was willing to hurl a clipboard at a receptionist who is just doing her job then who knows what his limit is/was?

 

[Cosmoline]

Drug seeking behavior perhaps?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

you acted the way i hope i would.

 

[Oyeboten]

Beurocracies and bureaucrats have long been understood to have a degrading influence on the composure or sentiments of their victims, which is one reason why governments use them or oblige them as henchmen and proxys...the needier or more coerced and abused the victim, the more so, of course, the degredation, corruption, waste, stupidity, and exploitation becomes.

As bureaucracies and their victimization of people continues to increase, so shall occasions for the rebuke or resentment some of the victims may feel.


I would probably have grasped this cogently, and with compassion for all, and, merely grabbed Mom by the elbow and left.


I have no interest to be a hero in defence of insurance company's and doctor's symbiotic and insular exploitation of people, nor of the lackies who feed off of it for a 'job'.


Hence, my choice would be to tactfully withdraw, and let the players of the game sort things out for themselves.


The same with 'Banks' or many other organizations...if I felt a threat were evolving on a sudden, or presenting itself to probable escalation, I would tip my Hat, and, sveltly, politely exit the situation and remove myself from the evolving condition, with zero interest of being, getting, or putting myself in the middle.

 

[Sgt_R]

I believe I'd have done about the same thing.

1) Try to leave before things get out of hand. Of course, you can't exactly drag grandma' out the door behind you, so...

2) Put my back to a wall with a clear view of the waiting room (including all entry/exit doors, the receptionist, and the parking lot if possible), monitor the situation, hope for the best, and be prepared for the worst.

I don't think I would have called 911 either. It wasn't a criminal matter (yet), and if the office staff didn't want to call the cops, then that's their decision to make.

R

 

[valorius]

When something like this happens, IF you want to potentially intervene, the best thing to do is to stand up and circle around behind him discretely. So if something does happen, you are in position to either grab him in a choke (or some other hold), or if he goes postal, put a hole in the base of his head (instant kill zone), the very second he does.

Make sure you're doing the right thing though, and be careful how you explain it to the cops, because to deliberately circle behind for an execution shot is a premeditated act.

 

[luigi]

I'm thinking somebody got a TOS letter

 

[Yo Mama]

OP, I think the best lesson I gathered from your story is that you went to a covered location being the bathroom. You would have been in an excellent position to control the situation if needed.

I don't trust anyone who in public can't control themselves. With random workplace shootings I think you were justified to raise your alertness, and don't second guess what you did.

 

[SSN Vet]

Judging by the response of the receptionist, I suspect that this is not the first time they've dealt with such folks.

A good friends wife just quit her job as a pharmacy tech. at the Walmart in a nearby town with a HUD project just blocks away. She worked there for six months and twice had customers threaten to kill her. And the only physical barier at the pharmacy is a low counter.

On one occasion, she sent out the emergency page code three times and no one from management or security/loss controll came. A mutual friend just happened to be in the store and recognized her voice on the PA in distress and went to the pharmacy just in time to see some enormous guy finish up his berzerker imitation and storm out of the store.

If you steal a gumball Walmart will prosecute it to the full extent of the law. But if you abuse and threaten their employees, they won't even call the police.

You just witnessed the ever increasing breakdown of civil society. My hat's off to you that you were both equipped and mentally prepared to take decisive action if need be.

 

[Old Guy]

The OP had a major problem, he had a Grandparent who could only see her health problem, more or less what you would except.

The escalation that was observed, had most likely been observed by the staff b/4 and nothing happened then, so why worry now?

He did good, but do not take safety's off "To get ready" practice drawing, and firing, so the action became automatic.

I would have called the Police, none emergency number, laid out the scenario to a road supervisor. Asked for advice, and alert the Officer, including description of Pick Up, Tag, and the actor.

And got Granny home as soon as possible.

 

[rondog]

I see no reason to sweep the safety off until absolutely necessary. With a 1911 it's perfectly suited to disengaging the safety as you draw and bring it up. Otherwise, good job!

 

[uspJ]

Thanks for the comments guys. I would have loved to have left the moment the guy started freaking out, my grandmother had just had shoulder surgery and as posted above I couldn't just toss her 120lbs over my shoulder and tote her out.

I thought about calling the cops but other than threatening and throwing a clipboard I couldn't really think of anything he was doing that would make the police get there in a hurry, also the fact that he kept going in and out made me hesitate to call because if he was gone the cops were probably not going to wait around for him to possibly return.

 

[uspJ]

I have no interest to be a hero in defence of insurance company's and doctor's symbiotic and insular exploitation of people, nor of the lackies who feed off of it for a 'job'.


Hence, my choice would be to tactfully withdraw, and let the players of the game sort things out for themselves.

Completely agree. If I could have persuaded my grandmother to do so we would have rescheduled the appointment and left. I have no love for insurance companies but was not about to leave my family there so I could make a tactful withdrawl.

I didn't want to be a hero and if I had to intervene I would not have felt like one. I would have felt like the poor sap who had the dumb luck to be at the wrong place at the right time to stop violent crime. I know in the real world the good guy usually has to spend time, money and possibly his freedom after his good deed. I have no interest in any of that. I just want to go home safely and keep family and friends safe if it's in my power.

 

[3:00hold]

The only thing, IMHO, if a relative who I can carry/drag won't leave a dangerous situation with me, they'd get help.

Granny would understand.

Some of us spend a lot of effort in order to be more alert than normal, and people we're with may not have the same level of awareness, and therefore they may not agree with your decision to - in this case - leave. If you love them and you feel the situation is dangerous, take charge and remove them from the dangerous situation.

Anyway, it's likely that if granny felt you pulling on her arm a little more forcefully than normal, she'd get the hint that you really felt strongly about leaving and may even assume you had a good reason for feeling that way. I'm just saying that if it looked like things were going to get bad in a hurry, pick her up and leave.

 

[mgkdrgn]

IMHO you did your part just fine ... the folks behind the counter ... not so much.

By taking no action (ie, not calling the police the -2nd- time he showed up), they possibly endangered not only themselves, but their patients, and anybody else this thug might run into when he is in a bad move.

The fact that he showed up a 3rd time, and they -still- didn't do anything (ya, I know dialing those 3 numbers, 911, is really exhausting), is just incomprehensible to me.

 

[Yikes!]

+1 rondog. Don't disengage the safety until you draw. Otherwise... Yikes!

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Good job; Noone died. I am glad my Grandmothers trust me enough they would get up and leave the instant I asked them too.

 

[VPLthrneck]

Outside of wanting to leave with your Grandma, I think you did a good job in everything else.

I would add two things to do for a follow up. 1) Speak with the Staff Supervisor as to what their procedures are for handing a potentially dangerous threat to there employees and guests; and 2) be blunt and ask you Grandma why she didn't want to leave. If your granny is from the same generation as my mom (the WWII) era, I bet you get an earful about maning up and not letting irate fools run your life.

 

[jl1966]

I get a kick out of the part about mom being of the WW II generation, mine was. We were out shopping one day when I was about twelve or so. Dad had passed recently, and I had been told by my older brothers that I was in charge of looking out for mom. She had wanted some peaches, and didn't like what she saw at the store. So we went to the local farmers market. She found the peaches she wanted, and was discussing the price and so forth with the woman in the stall. There was a beer joint right adjacent to the market, and a young policeman was questioning an old guy out front. This was almost directly behind my mom and me. Well I guess the cop didn't like what the old drunk had to say, and began to attempt to take him into custody. The guy began to resist, and protest loudly in some of the most off color language I had ever heard. I could see that the woman selling the peaches was made a little nervous by all this, and so was I. I told mom that maybe we should leave, but she just said "No, I haven't got my peaches yet." The scuffle behind us continued, now they were on the ground, rolling around, almost at our feet, the old drunk calling the cop everything in the book. Mom is still picking out peaches. I said again that we should go, and was told in no uncertain terms, that we were not leaving until she was done, and I better be quiet. So, mom got her peaches, the cop finally got the old guy in the cuffs, and all was right again. Later I said to mom that it was dangerous for her to have stayed there, and we should have left. She said that she was not worried, the young cop had "that old rumhead" well in hand, and that she was not gonna let some old drunk, who didn't know how to act, keep her from getting some nice peaches. Mom is gone now, but I often think of things like this that she taught me, not by words said, but by the example she, and my dad, lived everyday.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Your grandma was nice. Mine would have turned around and corrected the old fellar for using bad language in front of ladies and children.

 

[duns]

I see no reason to sweep the safety off until absolutely necessary. With a 1911 it's perfectly suited to disengaging the safety as you draw and bring it up.

What was the harm in this situation of sweeping it off while the 1911 was in the holster? Just asking!