Officers in botched raid awarded medals

[Phil DeGraves]

There is a problem with alot of folks here not looking at things objectively and rationally. Some are outright cop bashers, which is usually attributed to one of the following scenarios: 1. A cop took their wife, 2. A cop busted them doing something wrong, 3. They desperately want to be a cop and have authority, but cannot make the cut, or 4. They were once a cop who washed out and was fired. Now they hold a grudge.

My, we're self righteous ,aren't we?

 

[Treo]

Mistakes were made, however, the intentions were good and their actions under fire merit recognition.

I said this before rewarding the fireteam ( if you're gonna have paramilitary police you might as well use the appropriate terminology) for shooting up the wrong house (and traumatizing the family in the process) is akin to pinning a Navy Cross on the pilot who shot down Butch O'Hare.
After all mistakes were made but the pilot (actually it may have been a tailgunner) properly employed his weapon in the face of what he though was danger.

The problem that I have here is that all the power rests in the hands of the Sturm Abieltung as a citizen on the wrong side of such a home invasion my only legal recourse is to lay on the floor and pray to God that the guy pointing an MP5 in my face is not only a cop but a good cop.

If the Police enjoy Soveriegn Immunity while they're kicking down my door, shouldn't I enjoy the same protection when I in good faith employ deadly force in defending my home?

 

[Treo]

Fortunately the person inside was cooperative because we weren't there to play games.

Wow, it's a good thing that guy didn't do anything stupid like try to defend his home or act like he had Rights or anything.

You'd have really taught him a lesson then huh?

 

[coyotehitman]

My, we're self righteous ,aren't we?

Not quite, I call em like I see em, Phil. Is there a reason for your comment?

Wow, it's a good thing that guy didn't do anything stupid like try to defend his home or act like he had Rights or anything.

Yeah, its a good idea he didn't, he'd have had a real bad day.
Treo, another well thought, unbiased, intelligent post? Which category do you fit into?

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

So to those that think the officers deserve a medal for raiding the wrong house......

If they had killed the father would they get more medals? Everything that justifies them getting a medal for shooting at wrong people would justify them getting a medal for killing the father in his own house.

I can't see how you can say they deserve a medal for one and not the other. Are we really to the point that we feel officers should receive medals for killing wrong citizen?

What ever happen to I don't know "police work". The job of the police is to investigate crime. You want to breach doors them join the Marines. You get even cooler toys to play with.

Some "police work" that could have prevented this:
* Asking the suspect about the other house?
* Checking property search?
* Running plates of cars in driveway?
* Rechecking w/ informant. "We found the suspect at xyz are you sure he lives at abc"?
* Monitoring the house until the family left for the morning? Did they think he was going to flush the guns down the drain or teleport/magic them away?
* Requesting a normal warrant instead of no-knock?

If the officers did NONE of the above then they didn't do their job. If they didn't do their job then they don't deserve a medal.

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

Yeah, its a good idea he didn't, he'd have had a real bad day.
Treo, another well thought, unbiased, intelligent post? Which category do you fit into?

So what happens now when the guy gets robbed and the BG say police? He puts his weapon down because he no longer has a right to defend himself against people rushing in the middle of night with guns drawn saying "police", right? So when his family gets assaulted/killed/raped it was unavoidable right? Nobody fault.

When word gets around that this is any easy way to take out a house that might be harmed and more criminals start doing it then what happens?

What happens when 20 or 30 robberies happen by people yelling police so homowners start shooting first ask questions later and more cops die?

Can't you see how this escalation of violence is dangerous. Worse it is pointless. Why was a no-knock needed?

IMHO a no knock warrant should be incredibly rare. For the one in a million situation where absolutely the cops must engage in violence. Kidnapping, terrorism, etc.

 

[TheDriver]

Here's another article, with a poll.

http://www.startribune.com/local/26083024.html?location_refer=Homepage:highlightModules:7

Apparently this PD always awards medals for taking fire. Although, I think they would have made an exception to this rule were Mr. Khang or one of his six small children slain.

 

[jerkface11]

There is a problem with alot of folks here not looking at things objectively and rationally. Some are outright cop bashers, which is usually attributed to one of the following scenarios: 1. A cop took their wife, 2. A cop busted them doing something wrong, 3. They desperately want to be a cop and have authority, but cannot make the cut, or 4. They were once a cop who washed out and was fired. Now they hold a grudge

Or maybe they had the cops kick down their door in the middle of the night for no reason. Like Mr. Khang.

 

[Mr. D]

ConstitutionCowboy,

Sorry, I miss-read that part. For some reason, I read "second floor window" instead of "second floor bedroom." Weird.

At any rate, I don't see why these police officers are receiving awards in the first place. Awards are for bravery and actions above and beyond the call of duty. This raid was just part of one night's job and goes with the territory. Nothing extraordinarily brave or courageous about it.

~Dale

 

[Treo]

Treo, another well thought, totally biased, intelligent post?

I fixed that quote for ya dude I have almost ZERO use for cops and have never tried to hide the fact.
Cops are a necessary evil that must be tolerated by a free people. Their sole purpose is to collect evidence of crimes against the state to assist the prosecutor in presenting a viable case to a court.

I am not protected by a police presence, if I were I'd have no need of a gun

Which category do you fit into?

Actually you didn't put my catagory up there I'll post for you

5. Freeborn Citizen who's lived through the unpleasnt experience of having his rights violated by a cop, and who will do anything in his power to make sure it never happens again.

 

[Rally_Vincent]

No, it's not cop bashing.

"Policy" and "procedure," in any line of work, are simply an excuse to be lazy. Cops just want to go home at the end of the day, like other dudes who work long, hard shifts. But they also want to go home early, or get to the bar with their buddies, or make it home to see the game, or to see their wife and kids, or some combination of the previous examples. So they don't have time to go the extra mile, so to speak, even when they know something is wrong about the vagueness of some information that some other guy in some other unit is going to act on (which I'm sure dawned on SOMEONE who made the call to lock and load). It's not their problem anymore, hey, it's Miller Time. Let those SWAT guys sort it out, and I'll deal with the paperwork tomorrow or on Monday.

Of course, when things go wrong, and they're CALLED on it, it's all about, "oh crap, well, looks like there could have been some policy and procedural errors." Such nonsense. It's laziness, or an unwillingness to dig deeper into the information, or simply a lack of commitment to put time, effort, and resources into validating the information. It's not cop bashing, it's just lazy-ass bashing.

Use the context clues of life. Stop citing "procedure" and "policy" and go the extra mile. Like a customer service representative or something. Who cares if it's not in your job description. If you even suspect a problem that may occur because of something that's "not your job" that could otherwise end up with something catastrophic like this -- and YET not act on it, then you're like the man who is capable of doing good but does nothing about it. And then very bad things happen. I hope karma wins out in this one.

 

[coyotehitman]

Happiness, did you even bother to read the article? Honestly?

So to those that think the officers deserve a medal for raiding the wrong house......

Perhaps you do not know, but the officers have no control in planning and coordination in most circumstances.

If they had killed the father would they get more medals? Everything that justifies them getting a medal for shooting at wrong people would justify them getting a medal for killing the father in his own house.

I find that statement completely pointless.

What ever happen to I don't know "police work". The job of the police is to investigate crime. You want to breach doors them join the Marines. You get even cooler toys to play with.

Ditto.

I can't see how you can say they deserve a medal for one and not the other. Are we really to the point that we feel officers should receive medals for killing wrong citizen?

What are you talking about?

Why was a no-knock needed?
* Requesting a normal warrant instead of no-knock?

Were does it say a no knock warrant in the article from the OP?

IMHO a no knock warrant should be incredibly rare.

This is a pretty good indicator that you do not really understand what you are talking about. No knock's are extremely rare. Just because you read about one occasionally doesn't mean that they are common.

No, it's not cop bashing.

"Policy" and "procedure," in any line of work, are simply an excuse to be lazy. Cops just want to go home at the end of the day, like other dudes who work long, hard shifts. But they also want to go home early, or get to the bar with their buddies, or make it home to see the game, or to see their wife and kids, or some combination of the previous examples. So they don't have time to go the extra mile, so to speak, even when they know something is wrong about the vagueness of some information that some other guy in some other unit is going to act on (which I'm sure dawned on SOMEONE who made the call to lock and load). It's not their problem anymore, hey, it's Miller Time. Let those SWAT guys sort it out, and I'll deal with the paperwork tomorrow or on Monday.

Of course, when things go wrong, and they're CALLED on it, it's all about, "oh crap, well, looks like there could have been some policy and procedural errors." Such nonsense. It's laziness, or an unwillingness to dig deeper into the information, or simply a lack of commitment to put time, effort, and resources into validating the information. It's not cop bashing, it's just lazy-ass bashing.

Use the context clues of life. Stop citing "procedure" and "policy" and go the extra mile. Like a customer service representative or something. Who cares if it's not in your job description. If you even suspect a problem that may occur because of something that's "not your job" that could otherwise end up with something catastrophic like this -- and YET not act on it, then you're like the man who is capable of doing good but does nothing about it.

From my experience, what you describe as the norm is actually the moinority.

 

[ilbob]

amazing. the poll is almost 10-1 against giving the cops medals for their part in the botched raid.

 

[Crunker1337]

Commendation for a mistake... incredible.

 

[jerkface11]

Were does it say a no knock warrant in the article from the OP?

They didn't knock that was our first clue it was a no-knock warrant. Of course it probably wasn't a "raid an innocent mans house" warrant either. So maybe it wasn't a no-knock they just decided to kick the door down and bust in unannounced anyway.

 

[Deanimator]

Only the commander and team leader had detailed info on the house, we were briefed on the layout and transported there in a van knowing only the general location. Does that make it my fault that the wrong house was hit? Hardly.

Is it the innocent homeowner's fault? He's done nothing wrong. He hasn't even made a mistake. Apparently you believe he should submit to any and every armed home invasion that comes along, because DESPITE the fact that he has committed NO criminal act to justify a raid, it MIGHT be the police.

Actually if there was misconduct of some sort (perjured affidavit, etc), you could be convicted and get the death penalty under the felony murder rule. People have been so convicted and sentenced for FAR less in Illinois.

Your attitude seems to be that one should assume that any time someone kicks in their door, to automatically assume that it's the police. You also seem to assume that there is some physiological process by which criminal home invaders are incapable of shouting "police!"

Your concern for the public good seems highly attenuated at best. It appears that not only do you appear intent upon doing what you want to do regardless of the consequences to total innocents, you appear to believe that you should be able to do so, with complete impunity.

Here's a newsflash for you: A lot of innocent homeowners don't "play around" when it comes to home invasions either. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm unaware of ANY faceshield that'll stop an M2 Ball round from a Garand. You may not (and certainly don't seem to) care whether you get the wrong house. That could change very quickly and very permanently. Kicking in my door is a strict liability offense. I don't commit any crimes which would justify it and I have a documented history of death threats against me by organized White supremacists. They may be stump stupid, but they're certainly capable of sufficient vocalization to shout "police!". Kick my door in and I start shooting, and I won't stop until I'm out of targets or ammunition, and the latter is VERY unlikely.

That having been said, you take as cavalier an attitude to whether you've got the right house as you like. Just rest assured that there are BIG consequences to making a mistake.

 

[Phydeaux642]

Big Brother is watching you...well, he hopes it's you...and if it isn't, what the heck, they'll bust your door down anyway.

 

[Rally_Vincent]

From my experience, what you describe as the norm is actually the moinority.

Don't put words in my mouth, dude. I didn't say that happened all the time, neither did I say it happened infrequently. I said it simply happens. So chill on the uselessly defensive crap and either answer the post in its entirety or just ignore all of its valid points like most people do. Jesus.

 

[coyotehitman]

5. Freeborn Citizen who's lived through the unpleasnt experience of having his rights violated by a cop, and who will do anything in his power to make sure it never happens again.

Oh, #2.

 

[Deanimator]

From my experience, what you describe as the norm is actually the moinority.

If you kill one of my relatives in one of those "minority" of events, why should I not do everything humanly possible to destroy your career and life?

 

[RancidSumo]

Coyotehitman:

Not everyone who gets arreted was doing something wrong at the time. You need to get over whatever your problem is and come back to the real world.

 

[Wheeler44]

There is a problem with a lot of folks here not looking at things objectively and rationally. Some are outright cop bashers, which is usually attributed to one of the following scenarios: 1. A cop took their wife, 2. A cop busted them doing something wrong, 3. They desperately want to be a cop and have authority, but cannot make the cut, or 4. They were once a cop who washed out and was fired. Now they hold a grudge.

You know I can't believe I just read that, let me check.......yep, I just read that.

Let me just attack this post. What do we have behind door #1
1.
How many wives have you stole Coyote? I still have mine so it can't be that.

2.
Now thats gonna be different for every one. But still no cigar.

3.
Nope again, no way would I give my cushy construction career to bust down doors in the middle of the night.
The question here is; do you get off on authority?

4.
Wrong again.

But............... could it be #5.

5. Have personally witnessed an out of control tantrum on the part of a power trippin' Police Man. Yep could be that one.

Or #6
6. Subject can read and understand the news, even if it's somewhat blurred by bad reporting. Oh yeah, another possibility

Could it be good ol' #7.
7. Have seen right here on the High Road where Police Officers have typed

Yeah, its a good idea he didn't, he'd have had a real bad day.

because they are the only ones professional enough.....

and last of all #8.
8.

I don't expect you to know this or understand why, but some of the best info a LEO will ever get is from some pretty shady folks.

And doing actual police work, you know investigating and stuff is just boring compared to getting all dressed up like a mall ninja and bustin' down doors.

coyote;

What I find interesting is that the same folks who promote shooting first and asking questions later, who believe a guest at a motel who shoots the maid who entered his room by mistake should be exonerated, and who believes that you should not be held liable for shooting the 15 year old neighbor kid who got drunk and accidently(sic.) tried to get into your house thinking it was his own, want heads to roll when any governmental agency, person of authority, or someone with more power or status than them, does something similar.

In all of the above scenarios you listed the shooter had a right to be where they were and the shootee didn't. The shooter had fear for their life and acted on that fear, you know, like the laws in most states allow.

In the case described in the OP and in the Kathleen Johnson case and the Ryan Frederick case and many others, the instrument granting the "right" of the police to be there was flawed or fraudulent or obtained using unverified info garnered from the above mentioned "shady folks" . Thereby not really right.

On another thread about a similar case one of the officers on this board has said

" If you're so afraid the BG's are gonna flush the mother lode of drugs you're looking for down the toilet, why not just have the water department shut off the valve before you serve the warrant? If you've got the scene properly secured before you knock on the door, none of the evidence is gonna get away.

and

If the person you're looking for is so dangerous that you feel the need for a no-knock, better make sure they're in there first. I am personally uncomfortable with the concept of a no-knock raid, even though I have participated in them in the past.

It makes me wonder about the mindset of someone supposedly hired to uphold the law of the land saying

"I have been involved in a raid where the wrong house was hit. Fortunately the person inside was cooperative because we weren't there to play games.

and

Does that make it my fault that the wrong house was hit? Hardly.

 

[coyotehitman]

Deanimator. You and I are not referring to the same thing. The traits he described as normal in LE, I said were the minority.

Don't put words in my mouth, dude. I didn't say that happened all the time, neither did I say it happened infrequently. I said it simply happens. So chill on the uselessly defensive crap and either answer the post in its entirety or just ignore all of its valid points like most people do. Jesus.

OK, "Dude." In its entirety, you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Justin]

Done.