Question for those who OC:

[Skribs]

What is a good response when you're OCing and someone makes negative comments about it? I'd like to hear about personal experience, as well as different situations (i.e. customer service worker, random stranger, LEO). I'm not looking to be funny or witty, but something that will get me out of the conversation fast and without saying anything that they could use to say I'm a terrorist or anything (I've read some crazy stories). Reason I ask is I'm looking at starting OC, and want to be prepared for the people who suddenly think I'm an evil person just because I have a self defense tool on my hip.

Some specific scenarios I've read about are:
LEO harassment
Stores saying "don't come back"
Random strangers calling 911 because they think you're a criminal
People asking if you feel the location you're in is dangerous
People asking if you have a permit (in my state, permit is not required for OC)
People saying you should CC instead of OC (either a pro- who is afraid of losing rights or an anti who wants to pretend you dont have one)

Please note, I do not want to start an OC vs. CC debate, so unless it pertains specifically to the last scenario, I'm not looking for input.

 

[NavyLCDR]

LEO harassment:
KNOW the laws in your state! First question, "Officer, are you detaining me?" If the answer is no, then explain, "Officer I do not desire to participate in a voluntary encounter with you at this time, I will be on my way now, have a nice day!" If the answer is yes, you must know the laws of your state to know what the limits to their authority are.

Stores saying "don't come back":
I don't argue with the local store "authority". I have in the past said, "Your store, your rules, my choice to spend my money somewhere else. In today's economy I would think that you would be more interested in keeping customers spending money." If it is a chain store, take it up with the corporate office. The only real time this has happened to me was in a restaurant that had a bar area and the owner tried to tell me it was against the law to have a gun in the restaurant area because it was a "bar". I also pointed out to him the many <21 years old persons in the restaurant portion and said, "If this is a bar, and my gun is illegal because it is a bar, then you've got some major problems here on your hands." Then it was your business, your rules after that.

Random strangers calling 911 because they think you're a criminal:
Not my problem. I'll deal with the police as above, if the police show up.

People asking if you feel the location you're in is dangerous:
Every place is dangerous. A criminal, or more likely a wacko, can show up anywhere at any time. Ask them, "If I were a wacko and was here to shoot someone, which I am not, look around you, right now....what do you see here, other than my gun, that would be able to effectively stop me? What do you think would prevent a wacko from coming in here and shooting an ex-spouse or ex-employer if the voices in their head told them to?"

People asking if you have a permit (in my state, permit is not required for OC):
Just explain the law to them. And if you can add, "If you want to look it up the applicable statute is RCW 9.41.050 (WA STATE)" you will gain credibility.

People saying you should CC instead of OC (either a pro- who is afraid of losing rights or an anti who wants to pretend you dont have one):
I just blow those people off. "You should cover that up!" is what I have heard in the past from concealed carry only snobs. My reply simply has been, "No, I shouldn't" and leave it at that.

 

[claiborne]

You could move.

In most places in Arizona, when OCing the only people that will look at you strange are the people not from here who can't believe what your doing is legal and the beach bunnies at Lake Havasu when you are walking around in a Speedo and cool accessories like a 1911 and a kbar.
On the serious side, never once has anyone, to include cops, said anything to me while carrying my pistol. It is that way because I make sure I am breaking no laws while packing.

 

[Skribs]

Ah, Navy! I think you and I chatted a bit on the last OC thread I started. Thanks for the input.

Claiborne, most of the stories I've read have involved people who are not doing anything illegal, but someone comes up to them and starts harassing them over their piece.

 

[Sam1911]

A pal of mine came up with a cute/funny one that might work pretty darned well if you really don't feel like having a long conversation about gun rights with someone at that moment:

"I'm sorry, but I'm sure you understand, I can't discuss my job."

It really doesn't mean anything at all. It isn't suggesting that you are a LEO or some kind of government agent, but it is quite likely to get you a half-embarrassed smile and a response like, "Oh yes, of course, I'm sorry!"

I'm not sure I'd use it myself -- probably more likely to say a few friendly words about the law and RKBA and responsibility. But it could be a useful one to have on hand for quick disentanglements.

 

[Skribs]

Going over the top, Sam, but you should suggest to your pal that next time someone makes a comment, he speaks into his watch "HQ, we've been compromised" and just turn around and walk away.

 

[kayak-man]

That's a good one Sam, I might just have to borrow it.


Usually, if I'm Open Carrying, its when I'm running in the woods. I don't think anyone has ever asked me, but I'd usually respond with "because I KNOW there are black bear around here, and I'm pretty sure there are cougars and/or less than friendly K9s"

As far as OCing in the store goes, I generally don't do it, but Micheal Baine has a great podcast on how to interact with hostile employees in regards to your firearm.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[9mmepiphany]

"I'm sorry, but I'm sure you understand, I can't discuss my job."

It really doesn't mean anything at all. It isn't suggesting that you are a LEO or some kind of government agent, but it is quite likely to get you a half-embarrassed smile and a response like, "Oh yes, of course, I'm sorry!"

That's pretty clever...I like it...and that is exactly the response I'd expect. They are embarrassed that they didn't realize why you were carrying in the first place...they still don't know, but now they can't admit it. It is a win on multiple levels

I don't think it is over the top, you just have to believe it as you're saying it...if you look uncomfortable or embarrassed, you'll rise a lot of red flags.

 

[Skribs]

9mm, I meant my comment was over the top.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Ah, missed it...sorry

 

[RedTag]

I didnt have a choice but to open carry for a while because of the difficulty to obtain a permit in cali. I was at a pizza joint ordering a take out and waiting for it when i was approached by one of the employees asking me if i was planning on robbing them. I said that it was an inappropriate question and that i was not. He asked if it was even legal and i explained to him that it was and gave him an open carry card with an explanation of the laws that i never left without while OC'ing.

He eventually went back to work and everything was fine until a customer walked in and saw my gun on my hip, ran directly outside and (at this point i am assuming) called the police. I was getting into my car and a police car blocked me into my space, drew their weapons on me, searched me, disarmed me (which is fine while interviewing, in my opinion), and asked me about the laws. I actually taught them something because once again i had the Open Carry card on me which the LEO read over and handed it back with my weapon and told me to have a good night.

I recommend the Open Carry card. Have the laws typed up with the penal code on them and a broken down to plain english of what each law states. It has worked in every encounter that i have had with anyone and I have never taken more than a few minutes out of my time with each encounter

 

[Skribs]

Where did you get the OC card?

 

[RedTag]

calccw's website

 

[Mr. D]

A lot of the reactions I've received are people scoffing at the fact that I'm carrying, usually something like "I see you've got a gun; are you planning on shooting someone?" Usually followed by a smart aleck chuckle. To those folks I just smile patiently and reply that I would only shoot someone if he were trying to kill me (simplified I know, but it's not like I have 20 mins to go into a detailed explanation of use-of-force), but that I hope that my carrying openly would deter such a person from attacking me in the first place, therefor preventing the need for me to "shoot someone." I always wonder if they would have the same reaction if the somehow found out that I was carrying but the gun was concealed.

The other reaction I often get is curiosity: "is that legal?" "do you need a license to carry like that?" etc. Don't hesitate to stand there and have a 5 or 10 minute conversation about it. A polite, well-informed, FRIENDLY person willing to take the time to converse with others will do more than anything to create a positive view of OC and of carrying in general.

I've only had two negative encounters. The first was at Wal-Mart, which has a corporate policy prohibiting their customers from carrying in their stores. The manager was pretty professional about it, though he could have done better, but the assistant manager was very professional and after I was given the "you can't carry in our store" speech, he asked me about the legality etc. The second was at a PA state liquor store, where the guy at the cash register informed me that he thought it would be wise for me to not open carry in there because those stores are often the subjects of armed robbery. I felt like giving him the smarty "all the more reason for me to open carry in here," but I didn't. Instead, I simply informed him that one of the reasons I carry openly is to deter said robberies. He seemed kind of embarrassed at that point - I don't think he expected a response other than "yeah, ok, whatever."

Two things I can't stress enough about OC:

ALWAYS have a recording device on your person. I picked up a little hand-held recorder at Wal-Mart (ironically). And it is on me and recording any time I OC in public. HOWEVER, make sure you know your state's laws on recording. In PA, for instance, if you are talking to anyone other than a police officer (public servant, no "expectation of privacy" in the conversation), you have to notify the individual that the conversation is being recorded. Normally I don't bother because no-one is the wiser, but if I were to get into a situation where the person was excited, calling the police, etc and I thought I might need to use the recording as evidence later on, I would let the person know.

Make sure you know your state AND local laws concerning OC inside and out.

Good luck!

~D

 

[Skribs]

Ah, so that Cal one wouldn't apply to me, would it? (I'm in WA).

 

[JustinJ]

I was getting into my car and a police car blocked me into my space, drew their weapons on me, searched me, disarmed me (which is fine while interviewing, in my opinion), and asked me about the laws. I actually taught them something because once again i had the Open Carry card on me which the LEO read over and handed it back with my weapon and told me to have a good night.

I find it somewhat disconcerting that LE are determining what is legal by cards handed to them by citizens. I can just imagine some dude writing some random numbers followed by "use of marijuana is allowed" on a 3"x5" card to show cops.

On a serios note that story makes me really lean farther away from open carry if my state ever allows it. Unfortunately LE often don't know laws and the idea of having a gun drawn on me when i'm doing nothing illegal would anger me greatly.

 

[RedTag]

Skribs- The one that i had wouldnt help you out but i told a few friends of mine that open carry in other states made their own cards took it to the local police station, had the police verify everything was fact on the card and had them print it on the station's letterhead.

Justin- It wasnt just a 3x5 index card with some writing on it. They didnt take it at face value once the penal codes were referenced they looked into it and found that i was correct. It was a simple way to get around an argument. Thats the whole reason for the card. I used to be the same, thinking that someone impeding on my rights was outlandish and i wasnt going to stand for it. These cops were doing their jobs though, all they knew was that they were getting a call about a man with a gun. Thats it. One thing that i had to remind myself is that just because you know the law doesnt mean that everyone knows it. its their job to know the laws but can you honestly say that you know every single detail about your job? unless it menial (im not trying to degrade or insult please know that) its almost impossible to know every single detail about one's career.

I dont blame the police for the lack of knowledge, i blame the myself for not advocating more and spreading the word more. We all need to do it. It is always going to be hard for us because there are so many people that are ready to get rid of guns no matter what they have to do. It just makes our job that much harder

 

[W.E.G.]

Just say: "Its my Constitutional right."

Because rest assured, if it were not for the Constitution, you wouldn't be allowed to do it.

 

[skt239]

I hardly ever OC but t happens from time to time. I've carried leaving the range and then ate at a 5 guys and either no one noticed or they didn't care. I was dressed business casual and had mags on my belt so maybe people thought I was a cop. I also had my younger brother with me who was around 8 years old at the time, having a kid with you eliminates the lone nut look.

Personally I think it's a bad idea to do it every day. The arguments against it have been stated and all of them are valid. If you must OC, just try and look professional and always keep your cool. Your appearance is the most important factor; the same way you need to dress around your CCW, you should dress around your OC.

 

[conw]

Your response would be dictated to some degree by whether you are a political activist or primarily OCing because of a perceived strategic payoff in terms of safety.

so which is it?

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I agree w/ what Navylcdr said, to a point.
The point being almost the first words out of my mouth to a cop would be “Officer am I free to go?” if he said I was the next words out of my mouth would be “Thank you have a good day.” And I would turn around and leave period.

I wouldn't say one unnecessary word.

Pretty much everyone else I'd ignore

 

[NavyLCDR]

Personally I think it's a bad idea to do it every day. The arguments against it have been stated and all of them are valid. If you must OC,

Your response would be dictated to some degree by whether you are a political activist or primarily OCing because of a perceived strategic payoff in terms of safety.

so which is it?

Wow, some people just cannot resist the urge.....the OP even stated:

Please note, I do not want to start an OC vs. CC debate, so unless it pertains specifically to the last scenario, I'm not looking for input.

 

[Mainsail]

LEO harassment

Like Navy says, ask the officer right off the bat, “Am I being detained?” Those should be the FIRST words out of your mouth. It’s critical to determine whether you are being detained for a real crime or if they’re just there to give you grief. You have no idea what the dispatcher was told, and what the dispatcher told the officer. If someone reported a crime, like that you were practicing your draw on the metro bus, it changes the rules.

If the officer says he’s detaining you, immediately ask, “For suspicion of what crime are you detaining me? If he has a legitimate reason, he’ll tell you. If not, he’ll avoid the question. Then listen and keep your mouth shut. If he’s not detaining you, or sidesteps the question, then he’s probably just trying to make you uncomfortable enough to conceal.


Sometimes they just want to go through the motions because they know the complainant is watching; so they want it to appear they’re checking you out. You’ll know if this is the case because he’ll tell you he’s not detaining you but will nevertheless politely request your ID. In any event, be polite. You can be firm while still being polite.

Stores saying "don't come back"

Leave. The fight is later. Call and speak to the General Manager or owner. When I was kicked out of WalMart I left, called the regional office and spoke to the head of security. He straightened out the rouge ‘assistant’ manager.

Random strangers calling 911 because they think you're a criminal

You don’t have to deal with this, so don’t. One Sunday after breakfast I was taking a walk around the path at Wright Park in downtown Tacoma. As I came around for a second lap I heard some angry woman on her cell phone, “…but he’s carrying it right out in the open!” She was mostly upset because they were telling her they weren’t going to be sending an officer. Smile and move along.

People asking if you feel the location you're in is dangerous

I haven’t experienced this, but I have a standing policy that I do not feel obligated to speak to someone merely because they want me to. Smile and move along.

People asking if you have a permit (in my state, permit is not required for OC)

First I correct them on permit vs license, then point out that no concealed pistol license is necessary because I’m not carrying a concealed pistol. Simple.

People saying you should CC instead of OC (either a pro- who is afraid of losing rights or an anti who wants to pretend you dont have one)

Again, there is no obligation, legal or otherwise, to engage anyone in a conversation. I make it a habit NOT to debate anyone in public. My philosophy is this; my handgun is just another accoutrement no different than a watch or sunglasses. As such, it requires no explanation or justification. It should be as unremarkable to anyone else as it is to me, to behave otherwise means you’re just trying to make a statement, and I’m not.

People who ask why you’re carrying a gun

You didn’t ask this, but if you carry openly you will likely be asked why. Often there will be the insinuation that you’re afraid of something or scared. The response is the same as it is with being asked why one carries concealed. My answer to this question depends entirely on the tone in which it’s asked. If there is hostility in the question, my reply is, “I think that’s my business.” Smile and move along. If someone seems genuinely interested or curious, I can lay out the whole standard arguments.

 

[AFDavis11]

I keep my haircut conservatively. The only comment I ever got was "Are you Federal or local?"

 

[TrailWolf]

...If you must OC, just try and look professional and always keep your cool. Your appearance is the most important factor; the same way you need to dress around your CCW, you should dress around your OC.

Nailed it - this is probably the best advice on OC there is.

Its all about perception - dress like a bum or punk while OCing, you WILL get negative attention. Dress like a detective, and you will be fine.