Reloading black powder

[ShotgunDave]

Ok... so I'll need to lube it additionally. Or to clean the barrel more often. A few people pointed that out, so I agree. Thanks. Do you feel that the lubed wad is the best solution for me too, or maybe something else?

I would say that experimenting would be the best way to find out. All guns shoot different. What's good for one, might not work in another. I would load some with and without the lubed wad and see what the results are. You can get the wads cheap enough and in a small quantity that it shouldn't be cost prohibitive. If they work well, you're set. If they don't add any benefit, you're only out a couple dollars.

 

[1861]

You can get the wads cheap enough and in a small quantity that it shouldn't be cost prohibitive. If they work well, you're set. If they don't add any benefit, you're only out a couple dollars.

You're so wrong it's VERY expensive for me to get wads. I have to import them, they are NOT cheap in Europe, and I have to pay insanely high for shipping, from which ever country I import them, although the product has very light weight. When something is gun-related, shipping costs are outrageous.
I have a small number of wads left from my cap'n'ball use... and I'm unable to get a material needed to make them myself, although I have a tool for cutting wads.

 

[ShotgunDave]

You're so wrong it's VERY expensive for me to get wads. I have to import them, they are NOT cheap in Europe, and I have to pay insanely high for shipping, from which ever country I import them, although the product has very light weight. When something is gun-related, shipping costs are outrageous.
I have a small number of wads left from my cap'n'ball use... and I'm unable to get a material needed to make them myself, although I have a tool for cutting wads.

Well darn it, I'm sorry to hear that. I did not know.

If you have the tool for punching the wads, then you just need the felt. Is that something you can get? Any hobby/craft stores in Europe? It's just wool felt. If you don't have any there, maybe that is something that is cheap to order through the mail.

 

[1861]

I tried to get it. It has to be 100% natural wool, without artificial ingredients. It's not so easy to find. When I do find it, I can buy only a huge piece, like a big carpet, and that's much more than I'll ever need, and of course such a large piece of felt is again not cheap. I can order smaller piece on internet, but when I pay for shipping it's actually cheaper for me to order a pack of Ox-Yoke Originals, however expensive they might be for me in the first place.
I know it sounds ridiculous. Because it is ridiculous. Truth often is.
Thanks for trying to help.

 

[ShotgunDave]

I tried to get it. It has to be 100% natural wool, without artificial ingredients. It's not so easy to find. When I do find it, I can buy only a huge piece, like a big carpet, and that's much more than I'll ever need, and of course such a large piece of felt is again not cheap. I can order smaller piece on internet, but when I pay for shipping it's actually cheaper for me to order a pack of Ox-Yoke Originals, however expensive they might be for me in the first place.
I know it sounds ridiculous. Because it is ridiculous. Truth often is.
Thanks for trying to help.

They sure don't make it easy for you guys over there.

 

[drobs]

We covered wads in your other thread.
Use lube cookies - cut up a wool blanket. Buy a couple wool beret's at flea market and cut those up.

 

[1861]

They sure don't make it easy for you guys over there.

In the last 12 years 90% of everything I bought was on the internet, from the USA, UK, Germany, France, Italy, Canada, Australia, China... because most of that is unobtainable where I live or it's even more expensive to buy it here than to order it from another country. Still, I'm happy and thankful that I can get almost everything thanks to internet.

 

[1861]

Buy a couple wool beret's at flea market

Would you believe that I even tried that, unsuccessfully? Hats galore, but not those made from felt / wool. Believe it or not.
But I'll think of something, just need to find time for that.


I'm off, thank you all!

 

[arcticap]

Pulp makes a good point that it depends on the kind of shooting - whether you want ultimate accuracy or not - to use lube cookies or wads. Rifle yes, but for pistols they are optional.
He mentions the option of using wax paper with lube cookies, but they are not absolutely necessary for cowboy shooting.
There's different formulas for lube cookies, ones with wax seem to be best for coating the bore.
One would think the smaller bore using less powder would have less need for cookies or lubed wads, especially when you can swab the barrel as often as needed. --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...in-45-colt-bp-cartridges.505383/#post-6283266

If you want to try grease cookies or lube pills , search for the different recipes. There was one member who originally posted about making lube pills, he used to sell them. But other's tinkered with the recipe. Nonetheless, using wax paper under the pill or cookie may still be a good idea to protect the powder unless you use enough wax and keep the cartridges away from heat/sun. They can be cut out by using a case with one end removed and then pushed out. You can even use a 9mm case:--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/lube-pill-question.398669/page-2#post-5027724

There's recipes in both threads- 60/40, 50/50 or 70/30 wax/crisco grease or oil, some use tallow

 

[arcticap]

I found the original recipe for lube pills that were originally sold by the wife of member "rifle" whose name was junkyarddog.--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/100-shots-with-lube-pills.252458/#post-3085815

Pohill said: "At the end of Smokin' Gun's posts he mentions Lube Pills for sale by contacting "90# Junk Yard Dog" ([email protected]). I bought a box of .36 caliber and tried them out today. They kept the barrel much cleaner, and actually helped with accuracy. I've tried making lube pills but could never get the right consistency - these are just right. I'm usually a Crisco/Bore Butter guy, but these lube pills have converted me. Anyone else try them yet?

Junk Yard Dog lube pills - ([email protected])":--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/lube-pills.225812/#post-2747217

When Pohill made his own pills, he would pour the mixture down into his barrel to mold the lube mix, push it out and then cut it into wafers. The post is in the same thread as the original lube pill recipe:--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/100-shots-with-lube-pills.252458/#post-3076274

There's also a lube pill cutter design in post #39 of the same thread.

 

[1861]

depends on the kind of shooting - whether you want ultimate accuracy or not - to use lube cookies or wads

I don't really need the ULTIMATE accuracy... it's more for fun. Accuracy is more than welcome, but I'm not obsessed with it at all.

he would pour the mixture down into his barrel to mold the lube mix, push it out and then cut it into wafers

Ingenious!
Thanks, I'll have to do something of the things you and others mentioned.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

What's wrong with using cardboard?

 

[arcticap]

What's wrong with using cardboard?

1861 is trying to save space inside the .38 special cartridge for powder along with using a wadcutter bullet.
Wax board has also been mentioned, that's from paper juice or milk containers.
And so has wax paper.
Those may only be needed depending on how greasy the cookies are that could come into contact with the powder.
If less oil or grease is used in the cookies [or pills], there's less need for wax paper or wax board underneath the cookie.
The more wax in the recipe, the less chance that it will melt into the powder to contaminate it.

Some cookies are harder and some are softer, depending on how much oil and wax is used.
Some papers protect the powder better than others.
The same applies to the use of lubed wads.
Some wads can be coated with a wax and won't leech into the powder, but they can take up more space.

Also, one way to save space inside the case is to use a long powder drop tube, which can also be home made.
Or to use a powder compression die or ram on the loading press.
Or just compress the powder by hand before the bullet is seated using a wooden dowel.

 

[LRDGCO]

A wad under a hollow base bullet is pretty sub-optimal. There is a reasonable expectation that any wad, felt or cardboard, is going to get pushed up into that hollow base and stay there, with a negative impact on accuracy. FWIW, my view would be to use BP lube in the bullet grooves and just swab out the barrel at every reload.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Or if you feel like making a mess, fill the remaining space at the end of each chamber with lube just like you would after loading the other cylinder.

 

[arcticap]

Should I dare to say to use 4F powder?

Others have been using it in their .36's without cartridges.

For just a little extra pressure to help expand the hollow base of the bullet.

 

[1861]

Jackrabbit - no, I don't feel like making a mess
arcticap - I've read everywhere that I should use only 3F with my revolver, so I really don't want to try anything else.

 

[arcticap]

I don't blame you for not wanting to try 4F powder loads and you shouldn't if you don't want to.
But there are very experienced shooters and bullet casters who do load with 4F without any problem.
This thread contains some 4F loads for either .38 Special and/or .357. --->>> http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?103562-Black-Powder-in-357-magnum-cases

It's possible that the older powders used may have been more like 4F than the 3F of today.
For instance:

From "Outdoor Recreation" July 1919:

A Cap and Ball Revolver ARP Galena Md
Your revolver is probably what used to be known as a 36 caliber The 38 special bullet measures 358 You can probably obtain bullet molds from Francis Bannerman Broadway New York City
It is our impression that the Remington revolvers of the period you mention were mostly used by the Navy but may have been used in the army as well
We could not prescribe a powder charge but you can readily work one out
Would suggest you obtain a fine quick burning black powder such as Hazard's FFFFG and experiment to see which load gives the best results
As to their accuracy it we believe all the reports of them they were marvelous but would not want to vouch for them Editor:--->>> http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...special-cases-what-is-a-good-FFF-or-FFFF-load

 

[1861]

there are very experienced shooters and bullet casters who do load with 4F

I am on totally opposite side of being "very experienced", so it would be foolish, dangerous and arrogant to try what they are trying.
But thanks anyway.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

You're not gonna blow up anything using 4f in your pistol, in fact you may get better results. I was curious about those other .38 cases you found, were they .38 S&W? if so you can run them through your .38 special resize die and they will work.

 

[1861]

You're not gonna blow up anything using 4f in your pistol, in fact you may get better results. I was curious about those other .38 cases you found, were they .38 S&W? if so you can run them through your .38 special resize die and they will work.

Wow, this is such an important post
1st - how are you so sure that I'm not gonna blow up anything using 4F when everywhere is stated that my Pietta revolver is for 3F only? I'd like to read more about it. Better results in what way exactly?
2nd - that's a brilliant idea! Since there is such a tiny difference in diameter between .38 Special cases which I bought and very short 9mm cases fired by police at a range, maybe it really could be doable to resize them. I would need to get about 0.1-0.2 mm less wide diameter. You think that's possible? I'll certeanly try once I get all my reloading equipment, I have nothing to lose. But let's say I somehow manage to resize them. Those case are so tiny (short) that I can put only a round ball into them. And even with such a small projectile, there will be very little room left. Naturally, that space is obviously enough to shoot bullets with smokeless powder, but I don't want to have anything with smokeless for numerous reasons, and I even think it would be impossible and illegal for me to buy smokeless. So with smokeless out of the game, you think that maybe filling that tiny space (beneath the round ball in a very short case) with 4F could be a good solution?

I see this: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/fffg-vs-ffffg.792969/

And to answer your question... these small cases have several markings.
- "S & B" - obviously a manufacturer, Sellier & Bellot, which is a most common brand of ammo in my country.
- "9 x 19" - obviously that stands for 9mm diameter and 19mm length, although when I measure it, it's not exactly 19 mm, the real length is approximately 18.4 mm.
- "NONTOX" and "15"

18.4 mm length is 1.3 mm shorter than .38 S&W, which has a legth of 19.7 mm.
The closest case which I can find online is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9×18mm_Ultra

 

[LRDGCO]

Wow, this is such an important post
1st - how are you so sure that I'm not gonna blow up anything using 4F when everywhere is stated that my Pietta revolver is for 3F only? I'd like to read more about it. Better results in what way exactly?
2nd - That's a brilliant idea! Since there is such a tiny difference in diameter between .38 Special cases which I bought and very short 9mm cases fired by police at a range, maybe it really could be doable to resize them. I would need to get about 0.1-0.2 mm less wide diameter. You think that's possible? I'll certeanly try once I get all my reloading equipment, I have nothing to lose. But let's say I somehow manage to resize them. Those case are so tiny (short) that I can put only a round ball into them. And even with such a small projectile, there will be very little room left. Naturally, that space is obviously enough to shoot bullets with smokeless powder, but I don't want to have anything with smokeless for numerous reasons, and I even think it would be impossible and illegal for me to buy smokeless. So with smokeless out of the game, you think that maybe filling that tiny space (beneath the round ball in a very short case) with 4F could be a good solution?

I see this: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/fffg-vs-ffffg.792969/

And to answer your question... these small cases have several markings.
- "S & B" - obviously a manufacturer, Sellier & Bellot, which is a most common brand of ammo in my country.
- "9 x 19" - obviously that stands for 9mm diameter and 19mm length, although when I measure it, it's not exactly 19 mm, the real length is approximately 18.4 mm.
- "NONTOX" and "15"

18.4 mm length is 1.3 mm shorter than .38 S&W, which has a legth of 19.7 mm.

Don't bother with 4F powder. You aren't going to blow your revolver up with 4F because the amount of powder you can put in a 38 Special case couldn't produce sufficient pressures to create an issue. Stick with 3F; it will be fine.

The cases from your police range are 9mm Luger cartridges, aka 9 mm parabellum, aka 9x19. They are a rimless, 9mm or .356". cartridge for semi-auto pistols that have no relevance to your revolver. Use 38 Special brass for your revolver.

 

[J-Bar]

Please everyone, take a deep breath and relax. Let 1861 make a few test rounds with the materials on hand.

1861: as you have already learned, there is more than one way to shoot blackpowder successfully. Do your tests knowing that you are not going to harm yourself or your revolver. You will find out quickly if the lube on your bullets is inadequate. You will still be able to clean your gun. It will just take a bit more effort.

Enjoy the journey.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Those 9x19 won't work any way, they are rimless. They will drop right through your chambers and create a huge head space issue. Best not fool with them. .38 S&W are a short version of the .38 special. I had hoped someone was shooting the Smith and Wesson cartridges at your range. If you can find other areas where people shoot you can always forage for spent .38 cases. I do it all the time here. I have got some good reserves built up on .38s and 223 or 5.56x56 just by scrounging shooting sites.

 

[1861]

I understand now. Thank you LRDGCO and Jackrabbit. I'm sorry that I mentioned those cases in a first place, too much time spent on them, and they are 100% useless to me, irrelevant. I only mentioned them because they are the ONLY cases which I can find (for free), nothing else, and the diameter is almost the same as diameter of .38 Special, so I thought... well, nevermind, it was totally dumb idea anyway, I wasn't thinking about the rimless issue at all. My bad, sorry everyone.