Run in at Wal-Mart

[altitude_19]

This is why we fear the police rather than respect and trust the police.

It is a good example of why the founding fathers provided the entire Bill of Rights - to protect us from tyranny.

I didn't like reading it much myself, but the running practice is to give Tex a pass on this one. Guess he had a rough day and hadn't quite grasped the whole story when he posted it. We all know how bad a policy it can be to try to voice one's opinions while angry.

 

[Ditto_95]

The more people see them the more likely they will accept them

First of all I think if you do open carry you are doing a great service for the RTKBA.

It seems like most of the stories I read about confrontations between gun owners and businesses are at Walmart.
I wonder why that is?

My community LEO's support carry concealed. I am not sure how they feel about open carry.
I guess I will have to ask.

 

[dalepres]

I didn't like reading it much myself, but the running practice is to give Tex a pass on this one. Guess he had a rough day and hadn't quite grasped the whole story when he posted it. We all know how bad a policy it can be to try to voice one's opinions while angry.

I hope I don't run into him in a law enforcement situation when he's had a rough day or hasn't grasped the whole situation.

 

[WayneConrad]

It seems like most of the stories I read about confrontations between gun owners and businesses are at Walmart.
I wonder why that is?

Sheer volume. Many people--gun owners and non-gun-owners alike--shop at Wal-Mart. There are a great many non-events of open-carriers at Wal-Mart stores, too.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

I'm a little late to this party but I did read through the whole thread before posting.

I've been on THR since right after TFL days, hang out with a few of our moderators on a regular basis, and know a lot more of our members in person than I can shake a stick at. That being said--

I've spent a fair amount of time over at www.opencarry.org lately. I've come to call several of thier members friends, friends as close as some I have here.

I even went to an open carry meet/dinner the other night here in Utah(they finnally scheduled one I could attend). There was a reporter from the LA times there, specifically to do a story on open carry. He spent the entire evening asking different attendees questions and taking notes. To a man, all the folks he interviewed were intelligent and well spoken, even though some were in sport coats, some in boots and jeans, and some in t-shirts and levis. He's going to be hard pressed to turn any article he writes into an anti piece, that's for sure. I don't think he will, he seemed genuinely interested in the WHY? of open carry. Let me tell you all something:

From the folks I know personally from BOTH BOARDS some of us are being down right counterproductive in the big picture of things.

To our original poster: Kudos for sticking to your guns.

Those of you that dislike the idea of open carry because it "might" cause others to be a little more anti? This attitude is what is costing us death by a thousand cuts. It took me 10 years to convince my dad that EBRs are just as useful as his model 70 30-06. But now he understands.

The folks that I've met that do open carry do so in fine form. NOT ONE has fit the hillbilly redneck label that we all seem to fear. All have been cleanly dressed, well groomed, carrying with the correct gear(not just shoved in the pants), well versed in applicable law, and more than willing to take the occasional snide comment about thier choice.

Know what? I'm glad that there are people out there that WILL stand up for thier rights, and in so doing, my rights, and your rights, as well.

 

[Hanzerik]

Hey Ben, any idea on when that article is going to print?

 

[CZ223]

I live in a state where open carry is allowed

Unfortunately I also live in a state where liberals are allowed. Carrying openly will, more than likely, result in a conversation with a cop. As Tex said, the caveat here is "creating a disturbance", or something to that affect. I know, I have been through it. What bugs the bejeebers out of me is, when the police are called about a man with a gun, the caller isn't told that open carry is perfectly legal in this state. If that were the policy, I believe that more of us would be inclined to carry openly.

 

[meef]

Random thought....

When open carrying, keep a copy of the permitting stature on your person.

Might save a lot of hassle and prevent the "Can too! Can't neither!" stuff that seems to result when it becomes an issue.

Hard for Officer Friendly to refute when you hand him the paper citing chapter and verse of the laws he is sworn to uphold all clearly spelled out.

 

[WayneConrad]

meef, There usually isn't a permitting statute. Government doesn't work that way, or isn't supposed to.

The basis of American law is, "All that isn't prohibited, is allowed.

 

[meef]

meef, There usually isn't a permitting statute. Government doesn't work that way, or isn't supposed to.

The basis of American law is, "All that isn't prohibited, is allowed.

Good point. While I don't have the time to do further research as the wife said the yardwork WILL get done today, I felt there must be some sort of reference to open carry in the various state rules and regulations.

When I get some time, I'm going to look up the Oregon variety and see what's there, out of curiosity now.

I do know OC is allowed* here, I just don't know how/if it's described.


*Irritating to have to describe it as "allowed". What that basically means is the authorities probably won't toss you in the clink if you exercise your right.

 

[Sage of Seattle]

I suppose in this case, one could carry the laws that prohibit carry, so one could point out were they were/what they were doing was not on that list of, you know... actual crimes...

 

[LKB3rd]

Thanks to WayneConrad and Deanimator for the backup...let's try to keep it tasteful here, shall we? Now on to the mitigating circumstances I should have mentioned before: When I pulled up (around 0300) a roudy looking bunch in the parking lot noticed I was armed. I decided (and think many of you will agree) that ditching the weapon in the truck, a 76 Chevy with no alarm, would have been ill-advised as I would have likely come out to find it gone and a window busted. That's when I made the call to open carry for a couple reasons: 1.)It was late and populace in the store would be minimal 2.)I was well dressed and posed no menacing image 3.)I only needed a couple boxes of ammo and would just be in the store a few minutes. 4.)Leaving the weapon in the lot would have posed a deplorable hazard to public safety, given its present occupants. I'm willing to go to certain lengths for the sake of another's skitishness, but not at the risk of a stolen weapon that would likely be used in a crime later. I will do my best not to leave anything out, if you will all be so kind as to refrain from assumptions when I momentarily fail to do so.

It isn't illegal (assuming your local laws allow it), it isn't against Wal-Mart policy, and in my opinion the reason "I decided to do it" is good enough.
You might have stirred up some people, but you would have been within your rights to tell the store manager it was not illegal, but if he, as a representative of the store was not going to allow it, then that was fine, and leave. He can't detain you for any reason unless he puts you under citizens arrest. If you had the feeling he was going to call the police, a call yourself to explain what had happened, and that you thought he might be calling might not be a bad idea.

 

[Ltlabner]

Another point, if you can't OC where legal because you're afraid of offending someone then it is already illegal - effectively.

It's not about being afraid of offending someone. It's about picking and choosing your battles wisely.

If you OC into a crowded store on Saturday AM when everybody is grociery shopping don't be supprised when someone complains. And guess what, it's likely to be an anti, a soccer-mom or a lib that wants to protect the world. You really think they will be swayed by you OC'ing in a peacefull manner? I've met anti's who are being threatened by stalkers who have already made attempts to kill them who still can't bring themselves to touch a gun, let alone use it. Your walk through Wal-Mart is not going to do anything to sway them, and will only give them ammo to freak out and say "it's so dangerous to have a gun around all those children....". Yea, big progress there.

OC in the the same store later in the day, or the early morning. You are far less likely to stir the crowd into a frenzy and if you run into someone currious about guns, they might actually stand and talk to you for a bit. THEN you have an opportunity to educate them.

OC at a crowded street fair...someone will go bonkers. OC in the small shops on the same street during normal working hours...you'll likely be engaged in a less freaked out manner and be able to discuss the situation amicably. Again, THAT'S when you actually have a chance to educate them.

You (generalized you) can say I'm an anti-gun pro-gunner if you wish for not demanding to do whatever I want, when I want and how I want. But if you really stop and think about it, there's a HUGE difference between picking your battles wisely and being anti-gun.

I don't begrudge anyone for OC. I just think that if you are REALLY wanting to educate people via OC there are ways that are more productive than just strapping on and diving in.

And keep in mind, I live in a state where OC is not common, and the laws are murky, at best.

 

[Coyote Hunter]

To Bb62

You stated "You are incorrect.

Two things:

1) You CAN legally OC in Louisville and Lexington - KY has state preemption, so local gun laws are not enforceable.

2) You DO NOT have a right to CCW in KY - it's a PRIVILEGE granted to the subjects by the Commonwealth."

RESPONSE:

1) Unless the law has changed RECENTLY, I worked 5th district in Louisville, and a city ordinance CAN and often does supercede state law as an adidition to it if the state law allows, which it does in it's wording.

For instance, you may shoot your gun all day if you live on a farm, no law AGAINST it....but the city has an ordinance forbiding "discharging a firearm in the city limits".

You can OC on your property or in public where there is no law or ordinance against it...

Louisville and Lexington, before CCW, had city ordinances in place forbidding the "florishing" of a firearm. Now, if that law was not in effect, then a few folks paid a fine for walking around with a handgun stuck in their pants. I can't see changing a florishing law so one can carry OC now that we have CCW laws.

2) Speaking as a CCW license holder, I do indeed have the "PRIVILEGE" to carry CCW or not, terminology was corrected! But that priviledge was enacted and supported by a state law.

 

[WayneConrad]

meef, I want to correct myself on something I said a ways back. There usually is a permitting statute, but I forgot about it. My state constitution has a RKBA clause. I'll bet most do.

However, people who use constitutions to back up their actions are looked upon poorly. It should not be so, but that's the state of affairs these days.

 

[JesseL]

1) Unless the law has changed RECENTLY, I worked 5th district in Louisville, and a city ordinance CAN and often does supercede state law as an adidition to it if the state law allows, which it does in it's wording.

No city, county or urban-county government may occupy any part of the field of regulation of the transfer, ownership, possession, carrying or transportation of firearms, ammunition, or components of firearms or combination thereof.

In addition "flourishing" or "brandishing" rarely applies to a firearm kept in a holster.

 

[BB62]

Coyote Hunter,

I said: "1) You CAN legally OC in Louisville and Lexington - KY has state preemption, so local gun laws are not enforceable."

You said "1) Unless the law has changed RECENTLY, I worked 5th district in Louisville, and a city ordinance CAN and often does supercede state law as an adidition to it if the state law allows, which it does in it's wording."

*I* was referring to local OC laws specifically (which I thought was evident because this WHOLE THREAD is about OC), but preemption applies to plenty of things - registration, "assault" weapons bans, etc. City discharge laws are well known (at least among non-sworn citizens) to be unaffected by state preemption laws, except when specifically preempted.

If you call 1984 recently, then I guess the law has changed "recently".

65.870 Local firearms control ordinances prohibited.
No city, county or urban-county government may occupy any part of the field of regulation of the transfer, ownership, possession, carrying or transportation of firearms, ammunition, or components of firearms or combination thereof.
Effective: July 13, 1984

As to some who may have been convicted of "flourishing" for merely OCing- I can't speak to those circumstances because I don't know the details. I'm sure we can speculate on many reasons for convictions - including uninformed defense attorneys, or someone who was actually "flourishing" a firearm.


As to your contention that "2) Speaking as a CCW license holder, I do indeed have the "PRIVILEGE" to carry CCW or not, terminology was corrected! But that priviledge was enacted and supported by a state law."

Yet in post # 77 you said "I have the right to OC or CCW here in Kentucky..." (my emphasis).

You did not state that you had a privilege to CCW, you said you had a RIGHT. I said, correctly, that you do not have the RIGHT - you merely have a privilege.

 

[SuperMidget]

Open carry?

I mean, honestly - what's the point?

Unless you are a LEO, you are frankly being provocative with an "in your face" sort of thing - in my opinion.

It is provocative and I don't feel it promotes gun rights in a positive manner.

It reminds me of nothing more that the "We're here, we're queer, and we're in your face!" San Francisco attitude. Not a truly good public relations stance.

I carry all the time and everywhere with the exception of at work, and I carry concealed. The gun is on me and nobody gets upset. I like it that way.

Yes, open carry may be legal. But honestly, what good purpose does it actually serve?

Well, speaking from the experience of just moving to Wyoming there is a rather large point.

By Wyoming law, I can't apply for a CC permit for six months from the date I moved here. My South Dakota permit is invalidated the day I get a Wyoming address. So for the six to eight months I can't conceal, I'm supposed to sit on my hands when thee is a viable and legal alternative because it might scare the Coloradans?

I realize this is largely academic due to other circumstances, but it's a prime example of why OC is a good and necessary thing.

 

[Jamie C.]

Open carry?

I mean, honestly - what's the point?

Well, for one, it means I don't have to dress around the damned gun. I can have it there without it jabbing me in the ribs or causing any real discomfort.

And also, I can carry a much larger gun than I would generally be able to conceal.

BTW.... I'm rather fond of what I call "partial open carry". I simply throw on a belt holster, then my usual hunting/photographer's vest ( yes, I like having a bunch of pockets, and actually wear the things on a regular basis, even when I don't need to conceal a weapon). About half the holster sticks out the bottom, but nobody seems to pay that part much attention.


J.C.

 

[langenc]

"Wal-Mart has no problem with legal concealed carry.

Wal-Mart does, for obvious reasons, HAVE a problem with open carry.

It upsets some other customers and that hurts business, so (if they spot you carrying openly) they will politely ask you to cover it up or leave. Your choice. In most states, they can ask you to leave their store for any reason at all ("no shirt, no shoes, no service). Some states, like Texas, require a special sign, etc."

I guess Im oblivious--what are the obvious reasons??

In Wyoming?? maybe a problem in DC, NY or Philly but in WY???? YUK!

 

[Mainsail]

Wal-Mart does, for obvious reasons, HAVE a problem with open carry.

No, actually they don’t. I, and several others, carry openly in Wal-mart, K-mart- and Target often.